Serving Others as Serving Christ

[MrJim]

I have no doubt in my mind that God allowed this tragedy so that his people the Amish could give the worlda glimpse of His ability to forgiven even what seems unforgivable.

It would never occur to me that any Amish person would withhold forgiveness even for such a horrible crime.

And it's interesting how the media is noticing this. Today I was to drive through Georgetown PA where the funeral was being held (got rerouted and almost got lost)--police everywhere. But the signs up at businesses and the tone of the locals showed the support the "English" had with their Amish neighbors.

Yeah, the Amish have given the world something to chew on!

 

[~InHisHands~]

I have no doubt in my mind that God allowed this tragedy so that his people the Amish could give the worlda glimpse of His ability to forgiven even what seems unforgivable.

It would never occur to me that any Amish person would withhold forgiveness even for such a horrible crime.

I wouldn't know why not. They're human just like the rest of us.

 

[ZiSunka]

I wouldn't know why not. They're human just like the rest of us.

Yes, but their culture is very different.

 

[~InHisHands~]

I realize that. So is a holdeman one. Forgiveness is something that can be very difficult though. Good to see you WalkIn.

 

[ZiSunka]

I realize that. So is a holdeman one. Forgiveness is something that can be very difficult though. Good to see you WalkIn.

If you are forgiving out of your own will, yes, forgiveness can be very difficult.

If you are forgiving because you understand that you also desire to be condemned to die because your own sins if not for the grace and mercy of God, then it becomes much easier to forgive others.

Those who have confessed their own sins and experience the mercy of God lose the ability to judge and hold a grudge because they have lost their own burden of guilt and want to offer that freedom to others.

 

[~InHisHands~]

If you are forgiving out of your own will, yes, forgiveness can be very difficult.

If you are forgiving because you understand that you also desire to be condemned to die because your own sins if not for the grace and mercy of God, then it becomes much easier to forgive others.

Those who have confessed their own sins and experience the mercy of God lose the ability to judge and hold a grudge because they have lost their own burden of guilt and want to offer that freedom to others.

I understand. It took me a while to get it but I did. I can not get my mother to understand though. I wish I could.

 

[MrJim]

Regarding forgiveness I read an interesting quote somewhere that in essence said that forgiveness without conviction is just tolerance. The idea I guess is that someone would have to ask for forgiveness recognizing their wrong, otherwise you are giving them a free pass.

It would be like having menno jr. break a window, I walk by and see it and just say, "forget about it junior, I forgive you" without so much as a word from the boy.

I just toss this in here, 'cause in one sense it makes sense, but in another it doesn't (like when Jesus said "Forgive them Father they know not what they do" those Roman soldiers weren't exactly repentant). But I think there is some wisdom in that thought.

 

[ZiSunka]

I can't remember which Christian philosopher (CS Lewis maybe? Kierkegaard?) it was that said there are three kinds of forgiveness:

1. You forgive a person who asks, to restore the relationship.

2. You forgive a person who doesn't ask, to try to salvage the relationship.

3. You forgive a person who hurt you so deeply that it will never completely heal even though they don't ask, so that you can go on with your life and not be forever bound in pain and grief. That's the kind of forgiveness you give to someone like this man. The parents and family and community will never completely heal from what he did, but through their forgiveness of him, they will be able to continue to live in sanity.

 

[~InHisHands~]

Thank you for that WalkIn. It took me a very long time to get to a place where I understood #3. Most of my life actually. I'm glad the Lord shed some light on this for me finally.

 

[ZiSunka]

Still, it's a miracle that anyone could forgive someone who killed their child. If I had a child and he/she was murdered, it would be very difficult to forgive their killer.

I'm very proud of the people in PA who can and have forgiven the killer.

 

[~InHisHands~]

I lost a loved one not too long ago that was murdered. I have been able to forgive the man for it because of the fact that he had his own problems and I couldn't say that it was so much his fault. He wasn't getting help he needed to deal with what was going on his life. It is very sad that sometimes people with major problems go neglected by those who are supposed to be taking care of them. The stuff this man was dealing with could have gone as far back as childhood. I felt sorry for him to be honest with you. I felt sorry for all involved that they didn't have Christ in their lives and that it resulted in their deaths. Our world is one messed up place. I feel there is only one solution to it. But, the Lord isn't ready yet I guess. *Gentle Smile*

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I wouldn't know why not. They're human just like the rest of us.

because they live in accordance with G_d's Word, don't just talk about it. they live His Life, having given up their own(rights and ambitions and greed and selfishness) they died to self when their lives were born again - their lives are immersed in His, not superficially but in truth, and all in line with His Written Word they trust Him and do as He says, not what society or the flesh says.

 

[ZiSunka]

I lost a loved one not too long ago that was murdered. I have been able to forgive the man for it because of the fact that he had his own problems and I couldn't say that it was so much his fault. He wasn't getting help he needed to deal with what was going on his life. It is very sad that sometimes people with major problems go neglected by those who are supposed to be taking care of them. The stuff this man was dealing with could have gone as far back as childhood. I felt sorry for him to be honest with you. I felt sorry for all involved that they didn't have Christ in their lives and that it resulted in their deaths. Our world is one messed up place. I feel there is only one solution to it. But, the Lord isn't ready yet I guess. *Gentle Smile*

I read recently that as much as 90% of people with major mental illnesses are undiagnosed and/or untreated.

That's a lot of people. Although I agree that the ultimate fix for the problem is the Lord's return, He has certainly left us here in the meantime to care for those who are sick. So many Christians I know think that mental illness is a character weakness that should be cured by walking down and aisle and kneeling at an altar.

The first step to us doing what we should for people with mental illness is to educate ourselves and stop giving up on them if they don't get fixed by the first treatment they try.

 

[~InHisHands~]

I read recently that as much as 90% of people with major mental illnesses are undiagnosed and/or untreated.

That's a lot of people. Although I agree that the ultimate fix for the problem is the Lord's return, He has certainly left us here in the meantime to care for those who are sick. So many Christians I know think that mental illness is a character weakness that should be cured by walking down and aisle and kneeling at an altar.

The first step to us doing what we should for people with mental illness is to educate ourselves and stop giving up on them if they don't get fixed by the first treatment they try.

Many of today's doctors are in it for the money, though. They're not so much concerned about the patients well being.

 

[~InHisHands~]

because they live in accordance with G_d's Word, don't just talk about it. they live His Life, having given up their own(rights and ambitions and greed and selfishness) they died to self when their lives were born again - their lives are immersed in His, not superficially but in truth, and all in line with His Written Word they trust Him and do as He says, not what society or the flesh says.

That's all well and good but, sin can affect anyone. Anyone. We see proof of that all the time on tv and in other sources of media. Amish are people just like anyone else. If sin can affect christians, pastors, priests, why would it not be able to touch an Amish person? I just don't agree with that. No offense intended.

 

[ZiSunka]

That's all well and good but, sin can affect anyone. Anyone. We see proof of that all the time on tv and in other sources of media. Amish are people just like anyone else. If sin can affect christians, pastors, priests, why would it not be able to touch an Amish person? I just don't agree with that. No offense intended.

No one is saying they don't sin. We are just saying that as a people, they are quick to forgive as they know they have been forgiven. It's part of their culture.

Do you live near any Amish communities?

 

[~InHisHands~]

No one is saying they don't sin. We are just saying that as a people, they are quick to forgive as they know they have been forgiven. It's part of their culture.

Do you live near any Amish communities?

Alright. I understand now. Sorry. There is one. I come in contact with some of the folks occasionally. They are very pleasant and kind. They are unlike any others I come in contact with. I am around Holdeman's more. They aren't the same.

 

[ZiSunka]

Alright. I understand now. Sorry. There is one. I come in contact with some of the folks occasionally. They are very pleasant and kind. They are unlike any others I come in contact with. I am around Holdeman's more. They aren't the same.

The Amish aren't always pleasant and kind, believe me.

They aren't necessarily nicer or more moral than other people, but they do have a culture of peace and forgiveness.

 

[Jehane]

Alright. I understand now. Sorry. There is one. I come in contact with some of the folks occasionally. They are very pleasant and kind. They are unlike any others I come in contact with. I am around Holdeman's more. They aren't the same.

You are right LR. The wildest teenage parties are thrown by Amish kids having their rumspringer (sp?). I know they haven't joined church yet but they have been taught better than that. We all have a sinful nature.

Plus a few years back a bunch of Amish kids landed in jail for drug dealing.

Sorry, Red, I've stuck the wrong quote in. I meant the earlier one. My computer skills drive me crazy!

 

[~InHisHands~]

Ok now you've totally confused me. If they're not always nice then how can they be more moral and peaceful?