Seriously confused

[kfuller2]

Why are there so many atheists on a website named "Christian Forums"? I understand agnostics and the like being here as most of them are searching for some truth but atheists claim that there is no God so why come here? Aren't there atheist forums out there? My dad always said that an atheist is the best witness for God because they go around spouting "There is no God" and all that does is prove there is. If they truly believed there was no God then they wouldn't feel the need to say so. Or to come to a Christian forum and stir up trouble as I've been reading. That's like going around and saying "There is no Tooth Fairy!" "Mickey Mouse is a Cartoon!" Duh. If it's that obvious, we don't need someone to tell us so.

So I'm just wondering what draws so many of them here. Obviously they are going to meet disagreement as this is a Christian forum, right? Again, I'm new here so maybe this is the norm. I don't know. Can someone clarify this for me?

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be welcome if they want to search for truth, but coming just to argue with Christians is a bit immature, isn't it?

 

[Skavau]

I don't mean to note anything specifically, but at the time of me typing this - you appear to be on your fourth post. So you have literally shown up on this website and immediately noted the presence and began to complain about atheists.

At any rate:

Why are there so many atheists on a website named "Christian Forums"? I understand agnostics and the like being here as most of them are searching for some truth but atheists claim that there is no God so why come here?

Atheism is not necessarily an unquestionable and affirmative stance that there is no God. Atheism just literally means 'without god'. Most atheists do not claim there is no God, only that they do not believe there is a God. It is not a knowledge based position and so is not precluded from Agnosticism. I myself am an Agnostic Atheist. I don't believe there is a God, but I also don't claim to know whether or not a God exists or not to be true.

Aren't there atheist forums out there?

Well, yes. Of course there are. If I was to join a specific atheist community it would be specifically to advance a confirmation bias, find new information about naturalism, empiricism and other associated topics or cut and paste arguments into text documents so to prevent me having to keep typing them out.

My dad always said that an atheist is the best witness for God because they go around spouting "There is no God" and all that does is prove there is.

Go ahead and search through my posts and see if you can find any single incident where I have done anything like that.

If they truly believed there was no God then they wouldn't feel the need to say so. Or to come to a Christian forum and stir up trouble as I've been reading.

I haven't seen anyone cause trouble on here whatsoever. This is by and large an extremely civil forum. Someone who signs up on a forum with 4 posts and immediately creates a thread in an incorrect sub-forum complaining about a specific minority however, does fulfill what I personally consider looking for controversy.

You know that there are Christian only areas on this website if you find our Godlessness too outrageous?

That's like going around and saying "There is no Tooth Fairy!" "Mickey Mouse is a Cartoon!" Duh. If it's that obvious, we don't need someone to tell us so.

That's an amusing analogy. Are you comparing your belief in God to the tooth fairy and mickey mouse? I myself generally hold the impression that God to theists means a lot more to them than that.

So I'm just wondering what draws so many of them here. Obviously they are going to meet disagreement as this is a Christian forum, right? Again, I'm new here so maybe this is the norm. I don't know. Can someone clarify this for me?

Disagreement brings debate, and you'll find that many atheists enjoy debate - including me.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be welcome if they want to search for truth, but coming just to argue with Christians is a bit immature, isn't it?

It is about as 'mature' as making assumptions about every atheist?

 

[Mr. Ripley]

I'm not going to address every point you brought up, but I will say this:

Agnostics don't (necessarily) come here because they are looking for some truth. As for why atheists come here, what fun is it to debate with people who agree with you?

 

[quatona]

Why are there so many atheists on a website named "Christian Forums"?

I guess because this is a discussion forum, and because discussion is impossible when everyone agrees.
You are a newbie, and you don´t know about the history of CF. There was a time when non-believers were explicitly invited to come here and have controversial discussions with believers. There used to be a forum called "General Apologetics", for that very purpose. A sticky thread was dedicated to the question "Why do you non-Christians even come here", and there used to be roughly 800 individual responses in this thread.
How unfortunate it is that you can´t get your answers there anymore.

I understand agnostics and the like being here as most of them are searching for some truth but atheists claim that there is no God so why come here?

For the purpose of meeting persons who claim there is a god, and to discuss with them? To gain understanding why people have such a weird idea, and to try to help them understanding why others have such a weird idea that there is no god?

Aren't there atheist forums out there?

I don´t know, and I am not interested.
I´m not sure what your idea of discussion is, but a conversation of the "there is no god" - "amen, buddy" - "you bet there isn´t" etc. etc. is certainly not my idea of a discussion.

My dad always said that an atheist is the best witness for God because they go around spouting "There is no God" and all that does is prove there is.

Your dad may have been a reasonable guy, but here he didn´t get past a non-sequitur.

If they truly believed there was no God then they wouldn't feel the need to say so.

I´m not sure I understand the logic here: When people truly believe something, they will be silent about it? What would that tell me about those Christians who are quite vocal about their beliefs?
Or to come to a Christian forum and stir up trouble as I've been reading.

That's like going around and saying "There is no Tooth Fairy!" "Mickey Mouse is a Cartoon!" Duh. If it's that obvious, we don't need someone to tell us so.

Well, the difference is that there is a broad agreement on the non-existence of the tooth-fairy or Mickey Mouse. While when it comes to gods, there are people who seriously claim there are such.

So I'm just wondering what draws so many of them here.

I can´t tell you why there are so many here. However, I can tell you how I came here and why a stayed. Feel free to ask.

Obviously they are going to meet disagreement as this is a Christian forum, right?

Yes, disagreement is a prerequisite for discussion.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be welcome if they want to search for truth, but coming just to argue with Christians is a bit immature, isn't it?

Why is arguing with Christians immature?

 

[Fenny the Fox]

Why is arguing with Christians immature?

I don't see that much "arguing" here really. I think it usually sticks to actual debate and discussion. Usually.

But...I know what you meant. And nope. Don't consider that all that immature.

 

[kfuller2]

I wasn't meaning to offend anyone. I just wondered since, as a Christian, I'm not going to go looking for an atheist forum just so I can "debate" the existance of my Lord. What's the point? It's not like I'll change anyone's mind.

So I found it odd that so many atheists would want to come to a Christian forum to "debate" the existance of God. It's not like an atheist will change my mind either.

Not all Christians believe the exact same things. There are several denomonations and such and each has it's own little beliefs. Our core belief is all the same though. That's why it's fun.

I don't want to start off stepping on toes and I'm sorry if I did. As for the education on your particular brand of atheism, thank you. I only know two in my life and they are so blatantly against God that it pains me. To know that you truly don't know is a bit refreshing than the experience I have had with others pretty much spitting in my God's face.

Again, I apologize. I was just curious.

 

[Skavau]

I wasn't meaning to offend anyone. I just wondered since, as a Christian, I'm not going to go looking for an atheist forum just so I can "debate" the existance of my Lord. What's the point? It's not like I'll change anyone's mind.

I don't debate to change people's minds on the existence of God. I also do not just debate about the existence of God. But at any rate, your premise is incomplete. How do you know that discussion and debate won't change people's minds? You say that it would not change yours but I don't see how you could say with confidence that it has no effect ever.

But, if you must specifically know of course theists of all flavours show up to atheist forums and debate. People like to debate even if you don't think there's anything other in it than futility.

Not all Christians believe the exact same things. There are several denomonations and such and each has it's own little beliefs. Our core belief is all the same though. That's why it's fun.

Well, its even funner when your core beliefs are in fundamental disagreement, don't you think?

I don't want to start off stepping on toes and I'm sorry if I did. As for the education on your particular brand of atheism, thank you. I only know two in my life and they are so blatantly against God that it pains me.

You would be better then to describe them as anti-theists, or anti-religious. Atheism does not necessitate contempt of religion, or contempt of God. Whilst all anti-theists have to be atheists more or less by definition, not all atheists are anti-theist.

Again, I apologize. I was just curious.

Fair enough.

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

kfuller2, you have asked some valid questions. I thought it rather odd myself.

 

[Jade Margery]

I wasn't meaning to offend anyone. I just wondered since, as a Christian, I'm not going to go looking for an atheist forum just so I can "debate" the existance of my Lord. What's the point? It's not like I'll change anyone's mind.

So I found it odd that so many atheists would want to come to a Christian forum to "debate" the existance of God. It's not like an atheist will change my mind either.

Not all Christians believe the exact same things. There are several denomonations and such and each has it's own little beliefs. Our core belief is all the same though. That's why it's fun.

I don't want to start off stepping on toes and I'm sorry if I did. As for the education on your particular brand of atheism, thank you. I only know two in my life and they are so blatantly against God that it pains me. To know that you truly don't know is a bit refreshing than the experience I have had with others pretty much spitting in my God's face.

Again, I apologize. I was just curious.

You'll actually find fairly little debate on whether or not God exists, since that falls under apologetics and we're not s'posed to talk about that. Some people (on both sides of the fence) are sore about losing the General Apologetics board, but I can understand how it might have been a flame war battleground and a lot of unpleasant work for the Mods.

An atheist may not be able to change your religious beliefs, but unless I'm much mistaken, one already changed your idea of atheists. One reason atheists/agnostics are attracted to a predominently christian forum is that a lot of christians seem to have misconceptions about what atheism means and whether or not atheists can be good, moral human beings. While some people are just as bad as the stereotypes, that applies to both christians and atheists alike. Most aren't though.

Another reason (why I came here) is to try to understand religious people better. I was raised without religion, so I didn't understand what all the fuss is about, (still don't sometimes).

And then there's the issues that are important in the world right now. The best way to learn about a subject is being forced to clarify and support your beliefs about it. Sometimes you even realize you were wrong--I have, due to things I read here. A site that can make me think is worth my time even if I'm not welcome on most of it.

Atheists who are strongly anti-theist are sometimes ex-theists who rebound from one extreme to another or people who have experienced a lot of discrimination at the hands of theists and feel frustrated about it.* (Understandable, though regretable) If the atheists you know are surrounded by a very disapproving theist culture or left their faith, that could explain their strong feelings. Feeling pushed, they push back harder. It's a natural response we all have but it doesn't make things better for anyone.



By the way... welcome to the site. Hope to see you around.


*Not, of course, to imply that all ex-theists are antagonistic towards religion

 

[yasic]

Well, there are many reasons I come here.

One is that this place helped me shift from believing in God to being an atheist. Anytime anyone tells me that I am wasting my time here, that I will never convince anybody with logic, all I have to do is point out that I was convinced by logic and I am sure there are others as well, so I know logic can get to people.

I also come here to have my views put to the test. If anytime I express a view or argument for atheism I get agreement, how will I ever know if I have a strong argument?

I come here because I want to be shown that I am wrong, when I am wrong. Many times have my views changed, and it always begins when I am shown my current views lack merit (hence why I became an atheist in the first place).

I come here to speak with friends. I have made a lot of friends on here over the years, and I don't think that someone viewing it oddly that I am an atheist will ever make me not want to continue my friendships.

I come here for ethics questions. Not everything relates to the existence of a God or not. I can, and have, discussed many issues (Such as, is torture ever justified) with people of all faiths without religion being brought up.

In short, I come here because I enjoy my discussions on here, want to improve myself, help others change for the better, and just overall have fun.

 

[underpressure]

I come here to see what amusing moral conundrum Autumn Leaf has in store for the forum today.

 

[Autumnleaf]

This is a terrific thread.

I suspect all the atheists come here because atheism is not quite what it is made out to be. If atheism was a lack of faith in God I suspect they would treat this board like I treat Buddhist temples. I ignore them as curiosities and nothing more. The atheists here come to argue. Some of them better than others but they do come to argue and they tend to argue consistently against Christian values as the Bible defines them. Is an atheist really someone who doesn't believe in God, or is it someone who has chosen to be against God?

 

[Trevorkian]

I lurk on this forum because I want to be convinced that Christianity is correct. The idea of a just, loving God sounds pretty awesome, and I'd like to see a post or something that convinces me that He exists.

Also, the debates are pretty fun to watch.

 

[Freodin]

I just wondered since, as a Christian...

So I found it odd that so many atheists would want to come to a Christian forum to "debate" the existance of God. It's not like an atheist will change my mind either.
...
Again, I apologize. I was just curious.

Look at what you wrote here, and you will have your answer.

You wondered. You asked a question. You are looking for an answer.

Particularly, you are looking for an answer regarding a question of other people´s motives.


The same reason was what brought me here. I was confronted with all kinds of claims that I consider quite ludicrous. I wanted to know why people thought that way, how they justified their beliefs.

So I went to a place where I could find such people: here.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Aren't there atheist forums out there?

Yes, and I participate in them as well.

My dad always said that an atheist is the best witness for God because they go around spouting "There is no God" and all that does is prove there is.

Your dad is no doubt wise in many ways, but he is off target here.

If they truly believed there was no God then they wouldn't feel the need to say so.

I have many reasons to say so that don't involve the lack of belief in God itself. I have philosophical, political, and cultural reasons to discuss the subject.

So I'm just wondering what draws so many of them here.

I'm here mainly out of the recognition that we share this planet, and it is a small planet. We can't wish each other away. We must live together. I am here to challenge negative stigmas that atheists have, in particular in American culture.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be welcome if they want to search for truth, but coming just to argue with Christians is a bit immature, isn't it?

I'm not here "just to argue". It's far more than that.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

as a Christian, I'm not going to go looking for an atheist forum just so I can "debate" the existance of my Lord. What's the point?

You should ask that question of Christians who do, in fact, go to atheist forums just so they can debate theological issues. I've personal experience of plenty of such Christians.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Icewater]

I come here to debate in order to put my beliefs to the test. If my beliefs are good, then they should be able to withstand other people's objections. If they don't, I formulate new beliefs. Oh, and, beside that debating is just plain fun.

 

[quatona]

I wasn't meaning to offend anyone. I just wondered since, as a Christian, I'm not going to go looking for an atheist forum just so I can "debate" the existance of my Lord.

Well, you came to this particular forum on CF that is open to non-Christians, as well. Next you open a thread directed to atheists and ask us questions. So you are already doing what most people come here for: exchanging opinions.

What's the point? It's not like I'll change anyone's mind.

Are you implying that the only reason you can think of for having a conversation is changing people´s minds?
Btw. my mind has changed on a lot of things since I came here first.

And another thing: Although you personally may not be out to evangelize non-believers, Christianity has a long tradition in going to non-Christian places and trying to change people´s minds.

So I found it odd that so many atheists would want to come to a Christian forum to "debate" the existance of God.

This is an "Ethics&Morality" forum.

It's not like an atheist will change my mind either.

Maybe they don´t even want to?
For me, people can believe in their gods all they like.

Not all Christians believe the exact same things. There are several denomonations and such and each has it's own little beliefs. Our core belief is all the same though. That's why it's fun.

I only know two in my life and they are so blatantly against God that it pains me.

If they are "against God" they can´t be atheists.
I guess what you are trying to say is that they are quite zealous? Zeal indeed is annoying.

I was just curious.

I´m glad we could help.

 

[citizenthom]

To quote my Torts professor: "Some people just wake up in the morning looking for an argument."

When I was in college, I spent a fair amount of time on a mostly-atheist forum. I claimed it was to test my beliefs. It was really because I could only get my "argument high" against people who truly disagreed with me, weren't going to change, and got emotional when they felt like they had been beaten. I suspect the same sort of high attracts many self-identified atheists here.

FWIW, I don't mind it, and I'm glad CF is open to it. Christian sites that try to block out atheists are stupid and send a bad message. We should welcome them in: "Come, let us reason together," as the old hymn says.

 

[kfuller2]

This is a terrific thread.

I suspect all the atheists come here because atheism is not quite what it is made out to be. If atheism was a lack of faith in God I suspect they would treat this board like I treat Buddhist temples. I ignore them as curiosities and nothing more. The atheists here come to argue. Some of them better than others but they do come to argue and they tend to argue consistently against Christian values as the Bible defines them. Is an atheist really someone who doesn't believe in God, or is it someone who has chosen to be against God?

THAT is a wonderful question! For the few people I know in my life that claim to be atheists, I believe it is the latter.

And for whomever said it, being a nice and moral person alone won't save you from the depths of hell. I'm glad that there are nice and moral people out there though.

But sometimes I wonder, Christians witness to nonbelievers all the time and they use the Bible to back up the claims, but if a person doesn't believe in God, doesn't believe that the Bible is the word of God, and thinks it's all a lie, what good does quoting Bible verses do? I've always been afraid to ask my pastor this question.

By the way, I am young, have made several mistakes in my life and am a sinner like all others. I am saved by the Blood of the Lamb and I have faith. That is the only difference. I deserve hell like everyone else. Not trying to sound upity and all righteous on anyone. Really. Have a great day everyone and God bless.