Seriously confused

[Eudaimonist]

I know of no atheist forum where Christians go to debate.

I have participated in several. One current forum is an atheist portion of beliefnet. However, I have seen Christians debate atheists in other forums. An example is the old IIDB forum, which had many Christian posters.

Some Christians, in fact, go debate atheists in atheist forums.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Mr. Ripley]

I have no problem with people believing in a god. I don't enjoy people losing their faith. If belief in God makes someone happy, then I am glad. I'd rather someone be happy with their beliefs than prove to them that I am right. I've never once, as far as I can recall, debated the existence of God or tried to prove his absence.

 

[yasic]

Just for the record, atheists come in almost as many different varieties as there are denominations of Christians, and unlike most other atheists, I DO specially try to stop Christianity. I view religion as a hurtful outdated concept that is slowing down human progress in both the technological, and moral stance.

I do get joy when I (and it does happen regularly, including on this website) contribute to the deconversion of a Christian, in much the same way that I get joy when I contribute to someone's loss of racism (It does happen, though not yet on this forum as far as I know).

 

[kfuller2]

Just for the record, atheists come in almost as many different varieties as there are denominations of Christians, and unlike most other atheists, I DO specially try to stop Christianity. I view religion as a hurtful outdated concept that is slowing down human progress in both the technological, and moral stance.

I do get joy when I (and it does happen regularly, including on this website) contribute to the deconversion of a Christian, in much the same way that I get joy when I contribute to someone's loss of racism (It does happen, though not yet on this forum as far as I know).

This is just sad to me. Who are you to say that what they believe in is harmful to them? I am willing to witness to anyone but if they really don't want me to, I won't force the issue. You have a right to not believe in God. That is your free will that God gave you. But to take joy in taking away someone's faith, that's just sad.

Although, on the other hand, true believers won't be shaken by you so the people you think you have "won" over, weren't really saved in the first place. Once saved, always saved.

That's not to say that Christians never lose faith or hope. We do. We get down and discouraged all the time. But if we are TRULY saved, we will always return like the prodigal son and no one can turn us from what we KNOW to be true in our hearts.

I, personally, see absolutely NO harm in believing in a higher power. Scientific studies have actually shown that it improves one's overall health to have faith in a higher being. I don't judge anyone's faith at all. I don't see why you do.

 

[Eudaimonist]

But to take joy in taking away someone's faith, that's just sad.

Not at all. You don't understand that an atheist will usually see this as freeing someone from falsehood. It's a positive thing. It's like freeing someone from a cage they didn't even know existed.

But if we are TRULY saved, we will always return like the prodigal son and no one can turn us from what we KNOW to be true in our hearts.

This is just a rationalization. Christians indistinguishable from any other become atheists and stay atheists the rest of their lives.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[kfuller2]

This is just a rationalization. Christians indistinguishable from any other become atheists and stay atheists the rest of their lives.

Then they weren't really Christians. Many believe that they are following the path because of this or that, but truth be told, they aren't. Christianity is not a cage. We choose to be Christians, we are not forced. God does not force us to love Him anymore than I force my children to love me. I can't. They have free will.

A true Christian will not be swayed by Satan's attempts to convert them. It just won't happen. There is nothing that anyone could say to change my mind. I am truly saved and you could throw all kinds of "evidence" in my face and it wouldn't change a thing.

 

[SithDoughnut]

SithDonut, I think in whole what Autumnleaf is saying why would an Atheist deliberately go out of your way to argue about Christian beliefs on a Christian forum. I think he is implying that Atheists' argue here only to cause conflict (I say this because he also compares it to arguing about Chinese civil rights and asks if you do this anywhere else in your life).

A debate is essentially a discussion of conflicting ideas, so I suppose he has a point. No atheist comes here to cause conflict though; the conflict already exists, everyone here just discusses it. There's nothing wrong with conflict, provided it is friendly conflict.

 

[Unashamed Jesus Freak]

Then they weren't really Christians. Many believe that they are following the path because of this or that, but truth be told, they aren't. Christianity is not a cage. We choose to be Christians, we are not forced. God does not force us to love Him anymore than I force my children to love me. I can't. They have free will.

A true Christian will not be swayed by Satan's attempts to convert them. It just won't happen. There is nothing that anyone could say to change my mind. I am truly saved and you could throw all kinds of "evidence" in my face and it wouldn't change a thing.

That is absolutely correct. There is no such thing as an ex-Christian. Anyone who has turned from the faith was a false convert, not genuinely saved in the first place. The Bible makes it quite clear that not everyone who names the Name of Christ is genuinely saved. Jesus said, "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" (Matthew 7:21-23). He spoke of true and false conversion through His Parables:the Sower (Mark 4:3-8); the wheat and tares (Matthew 13:24-30); the wise virgins and the foolish virgins (Matthew 25:1-13); the dragnet (Matthew 13:47-51); and the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46).

 

[SithDoughnut]

This is just sad to me. Who are you to say that what they believe in is harmful to them? I am willing to witness to anyone but if they really don't want me to, I won't force the issue. You have a right to not believe in God. That is your free will that God gave you. But to take joy in taking away someone's faith, that's just sad.

Not if you believe the faith is a bad thing in the first place. I doubt that any atheists here force atheism upon anyone unless they want it.

Although, on the other hand, true believers won't be shaken by you so the people you think you have "won" over, weren't really saved in the first place. Once saved, always saved.

Ah, the old no true Scotsman fallacy. I was a Christian once. I was a true believer. Beliefs can change.

That's not to say that Christians never lose faith or hope. We do. We get down and discouraged all the time. But if we are TRULY saved, we will always return like the prodigal son and no one can turn us from what we KNOW to be true in our hearts.

See above. It would be nice if people stopped telling me I wasn't someone who I was. If there's one thing I dislike about religion, it's the way it makes people think that they have the authority to judge the innermost beliefs and desires of other people, as if what the other people think is worthless.

 

[yasic]

This is just sad to me. Who are you to say that what they believe in is harmful to them? I am willing to witness to anyone but if they really don't want me to, I won't force the issue. You have a right to not believe in God. That is your free will that God gave you. But to take joy in taking away someone's faith, that's just sad.

Would you say that someone believing that black people are a cursed race by god and therefore inferior is a harmful belief? Who are you to say that it is harmful if so?

I fully admit that I could be wrong, as with everything else, and am always open to being shown as such, but my current beliefs and studies show that a religious belief is harmful, and the people that I do convert have this nasty habit of thanking me, telling me how much better their life became, which drives my ambitions- if it were not for them, I would have given this up long ago.

I also fully support your right to believe in God, or any other being or idea. Such a right is one I am willing to physically fight for, one that I have and plan to in the future to support even with my life being literally at risk.

I will never 'force' anyone to deconvert. Anyone has a right to leave my conversation and debate at any time. Anyone on here could choose to simply put me on ignore, I support that right. Everyone who debates and talks with me does so of their own free will. I take this matter seriously enough to even ensure that I do not try to talk about such ideas with the mentally incapable or the very young (without parental permission) whom I do not feel have the ability to consent to my talks.

Although, on the other hand, true believers won't be shaken by you so the people you think you have "won" over, weren't really saved in the first place. Once saved, always saved.

That's not to say that Christians never lose faith or hope. We do. We get down and discouraged all the time. But if we are TRULY saved, we will always return like the prodigal son and no one can turn us from what we KNOW to be true in our hearts.

I am well aware of such a belief. I think it is silly, but not much I can do about it.

I, personally, see absolutely NO harm in believing in a higher power. Scientific studies have actually shown that it improves one's overall health to have faith in a higher being. I don't judge anyone's faith at all. I don't see why you do.

People who believe in Christianity have this nasty habit of doing what the bible or other religious leaders tells them to do, even in spite of reality. Such examples include making the lives of innocent homosexuals miserable, engaging in oppression of women (the idea that women should yield household power to the male figure), trying and teach children silly fairy tales in science classes, preventing groundbreaking medical advancement (stem cell research). . . the list just goes on and on.

If nothing else, we have the majority of our population living their life by the advise of and worshiping an entity which does not even exist. Surely you can see that there has to be something wrong with that?

And if not that, I think that accepting the truth over a convenient lie is a virtue and people should strive to be correct in all aspects of life.

These are some of the reasons why I try to stop religious belief.

 

[WhatToDo?]

Anytime anyone tells me that I am wasting my time here, that I will never convince anybody with logic, all I have to do is point out that I was convinced by logic and I am sure there are others as well, so I know logic can get to people.

Can I assume u come from a Christian family? I myself was brought up in an atheistic household. I waited till I was 18 to tell my family out of respect for them, and it was no rebellion it was just the truth that came to me. I have gotten a lot of [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] from my family as God found me and made me believe, it has caused many problems for me and was not easy. I think its down the line of problems and hurt that a son of orthodox Christian parents coming out as homosexual feels: I wouldnt do it if I wasnt 100%sure.
Of course I want to always grow in my belief and learn new things and I applaud u for that, but this 'logic' u talk of, what do u mean exactly? Humans know 0,000...% of this worlds 'logic', just of the human brain, which is OUR OWN BRAIN we only know 1 %... we try to make a map over the world, but theres really almost nothing filled out so..

 

[yasic]

Can I assume u come from a Christian family? I myself was brought up in an atheistic household. I waited till I was 18 to tell my family out of respect for them, and it was no rebellion it was just the truth that came to me. I have gotten a lot of [wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth][wash my mouth] from my family as God found me and made me believe, it has caused many problems for me and was not easy. I think its down the line of problems and hurt that a son of orthodox Christian parents coming out as homosexual feels: I wouldnt do it if I wasnt 100%sure.
Of course I want to always grow in my belief and learn new things and I applaud u for that, but this 'logic' u talk of, what do u mean exactly? Humans know 0,000...% of this worlds 'logic', just of the human brain, which is OUR OWN BRAIN we only know 1 %... we try to make a map over the world, but theres really almost nothing filled out so..

I'm sorry, but I think I may have misunderstood your post, so if I am addressing a wrong topic, then correct me, but...

Yes, I come from a Russian Orthodox family. I am named after my family pastor to let you know how seriously we took our faith.

I agree, our logic could be flawed, so because it might be wrong, lets stop using it, after all:


As I come from the grand house of outer limbs, I like to eat from at ants over longing serious cats. Why; why ; why must; with whom? I!

But wait, for 74 is the wierd feelings to'ping over like 27 rainbow! Above!

 

[Mling]

Can't speak for anybody else, but I was Christian when I first started coming here, so I was already in the habit, and interested in the discussions when I became atheist(actually, I consider this forum to be a small but significant part of the reason why I deconverted).

I left for a while, and came back...and continue to come and go.

To the OP, you'll notice that there are a lot of different forums here, and the vast, overwhelming majority of them are not, "Debate the existance of the Christian God." This one, for example, is about different views concerning ethics and morality--a topic I find very interesting, as I had to think deeply about what it meant to be moral as I struggled with and left Christianity (the pursuit of morality is another reason I left, actually).

 

[Mling]

This is just sad to me. Who are you to say that what they believe in is harmful to them? I am willing to witness to anyone but if they really don't want me to, I won't force the issue. You have a right to not believe in God. That is your free will that God gave you. But to take joy in taking away someone's faith, that's just sad.

Although, on the other hand, true believers won't be shaken by you so the people you think you have "won" over, weren't really saved in the first place. Once saved, always saved.

That's not to say that Christians never lose faith or hope. We do. We get down and discouraged all the time. But if we are TRULY saved, we will always return like the prodigal son and no one can turn us from what we KNOW to be true in our hearts.

I, personally, see absolutely NO harm in believing in a higher power. Scientific studies have actually shown that it improves one's overall health to have faith in a higher being. I don't judge anyone's faith at all. I don't see why you do.

When I lost my faith, I was sad. I mourned; I cried, I raged against people who misled me....

And then I found a deep well of freedom and love for life and truth, such that I could only describe in religious language. It was like scales falling from my eyes, heart, mind and soul. A peace and joy that made me want to run up to people and yell "Have you heard the good news?!!!"

I'm sure you can understand the desire to share a deeply meaningful truth.

 

[WhatToDo?]

Yes, I come from a Russian Orthodox family. I am named after my family pastor to let you know how seriously we took our faith.

well forgive me but I think often when someone has the view of THE way that THE WHOLE FAMILY takes THEIR all of thems faith, he might not have such a personal relationship with God, and will seek other ways to find himself?

 

[Hakan101]

I'm sorry, but I think I may have misunderstood your post, so if I am addressing a wrong topic, then correct me, but...

Yes, I come from a Russian Orthodox family. I am named after my family pastor to let you know how seriously we took our faith.

I agree, our logic could be flawed, so because it might be wrong, lets stop using it, after all:


As I come from the grand house of outer limbs, I like to eat from at ants over longing serious cats. Why; why ; why must; with whom? I!

But wait, for 74 is the wierd feelings to'ping over like 27 rainbow! Above!

That makes no sense at all, how about contributing to this discussion instead of attempting to be humorous? In any case, the person who said we know nothing about logic was misguided. The Bible even said that we should use our minds to apply Scripture when determining if what we do is in God's word. God also said he will allow godless men to think they are wise, but in the end they will be made fools.

 

[yasic]

That makes no sense at all, how about contributing to this discussion instead of attempting to be humorous? In any case, the person who said we know nothing about logic was misguided. The Bible even said that we should use our minds to apply Scripture when determining if what we do is in God's word. God also said he will allow godless men to think they are wise, but in the end they will be made fools.

I am not trying to be humorous but make a point that I felt was best done by example. The point is that logic and reason is the way that we interpret everything in our lives, and if we were to forgo their use, then we are left with unintelligible gibberish. The notion that we shouldn't value logic is as silly as saying that gravity is only optional, we just all chose it.

 

[yasic]

well forgive me but I think often when someone has the view of THE way that THE WHOLE FAMILY takes THEIR all of thems faith, he might not have such a personal relationship with God, and will seek other ways to find himself?

I agree that I did not have a relationship with God, only that I deluded myself into thinking that I did...

But then I think the same thing about everyone else as well.

Remember, your talking to an atheist here, I believe nobody has a relationship with God because God does not exist.

 

[Skavau]

This is just sad to me. Who are you to say that what they believe in is harmful to them?

This coming from you, who earlier said: "And for whomever said it, being a nice and moral person alone won't save you from the depths of hell."

He is an individual with a perspective, and that is enough to produce an opinion. Just like you earlier when you warned us of hell (denoting that you felt being an atheist, in the long term was harmful).

 

[Penumbra]

Why are there so many atheists on a website named "Christian Forums"?

I came to this forum because my partner belonged to this forum, and I found out there was a rich community of people from various religions and non-religions here, not just Christians. It's a huge forum as far as religious forums go, so there is a lot of contact and discussion. I post in the "Ethics and Morality" section because I wish to discuss Ethics and Morality with a bunch of people from various walks of life. I post in the "Non Christian Religion" section because I wish to converse about topics with people of various religions.

I still come here mainly to talk about Ethics and Morality. Though, a part of that is that I find Christianity to include some horrible ethics and morality. I wish to talk to and reason with people who I believe are causing harm based on incorrect beliefs and arrogance.

I'm open about the fact that I do not like Christianity. I view it as a limiting, immoral religion. I view the Christian God as an evil character thought up by immoral men. I am glad that there are non-Christians (and learned, broad-minded Christians) here who can show Christians other options, other thoughts.

There are Christians here who I like. If they are reading this, they know who they are. They're the intelligent, educated Christians that aren't trampling all over freedoms of other people and aren't going around with close-minded assurance. They're inclusive, open to learning, open to sharing, and kind. They aren't the ones I view as damaging to my society, or the ones who I have to try to reason with. They're the ones I enjoy to reason with, to talk with.

I understand agnostics and the like being here as most of them are searching for some truth but atheists claim that there is no God so why come here?

To correct a misconception, atheists don't necessarily claim there is no god. Atheists simply don't believe in gods. There are different kinds of atheists like there are different kinds of theists. Some claim there are definitely no deities, some claim there are most likely no deities, etc. Some have different opinions about different deities. For example, I can claim with pretty much certainty that deities like Zeus, Yahweh, Odin, and Apollo do not exist. I do not claim, however, that there is absolutely nothing in the universe that resembles a deity; I merely do not believe that there is. A theist is someone who believes in one or more gods. An atheist is someone who is not a theist- that's the only common denominator among atheists.

Atheist and Agnostic can be, and often are, overlapping definitions, not exclusive terms.

Aren't there atheist forums out there?

Yeah. Why would I go to one, though? I have a limited amount of time in my day. If I'm going to discuss things, learn new things, teach others things, why would I go to a forum with people that are a lot like myself?

I am a member of this Christian forum, a Hindu forum, and a New Age forum.

My dad always said that an atheist is the best witness for God because they go around spouting "There is no God" and all that does is prove there is. If they truly believed there was no God then they wouldn't feel the need to say so. Or to come to a Christian forum and stir up trouble as I've been reading.

It's easier to dismiss the points of others instead of to face them with reason.

That's like going around and saying "There is no Tooth Fairy!" "Mickey Mouse is a Cartoon!" Duh. If it's that obvious, we don't need someone to tell us so.

If there were adults in my country who seriously believed in the existence of the tooth fairy, and wanted to teach children that the earth was made 6000 years ago by the tooth fairy out of magical enamel, and wanted to limit the freedoms of others because "the tooth fairy does not approve", then I would certainly going around trying to reason with these people too.

THAT is a wonderful question! For the few people I know in my life that claim to be atheists, I believe it is the latter.

And for whomever said it, being a nice and moral person alone won't save you from the depths of hell. I'm glad that there are nice and moral people out there though.

See, that sort of thing is what keeps me at this place.

I am pained that some people actually believe in such things as hell. I hope to spread reason so that I may reach them.

But sometimes I wonder, Christians witness to nonbelievers all the time and they use the Bible to back up the claims, but if a person doesn't believe in God, doesn't believe that the Bible is the word of God, and thinks it's all a lie, what good does quoting Bible verses do? I've always been afraid to ask my pastor this question.

What good would it do to you if a Muslim quotes their Qur'an to try to convince you of the truth of their religion?

The Bible was written by people. Presenting a Bible quote is merely presenting the opinion of another person.

I've read religious scriptures, as many of them are works of art and are excellent windows into a historic culture's views. I've read the Bible, the Qur'an, the Bhagavad Gita, some Buddhist scriptures, etc. They are stories or teachings that contain good things and bad things, written by people for people.

Most Christians I come in contact with are like this: They read the Bible (or usually only a part of the Bible, actually), and then claim that it is correct, the word of God, and so forth, when they have never bothered to read other scriptures that are claimed to be from God by other cultures. I hope to encourage them to read and learn things larger than and greater than their own small window of the world.

I personally don't go to Atheist websites because I see it as futile to debate against them. I have heard it said that "God wants to reveal himself to you, but he won't allow you to reveal himself to others." It is impossible for anyone else but God to convince you of his existence, so there is no point for me to go to an Atheist website and try to debate with them.

More often than anything though, Atheists demand proof of God's existence, which of course I cannot give. God wanted us to believe in him through faith, and while I am confident in my belief that God exists, I cannot prove nor convince an Atheist of this.

Faith only works if there is one proposed deity to believe in.

Yet, Jews propose their god. Hindus propose their god. Muslims propose their god. Christians propose their god. Pagans propose their gods. Atheists propose that there doesn't seem to be a god.

Reason is required as a sorting mechanism.

-Lyn