Sell all that you have, give to the poor, and follow me

[ViaCrucis]

And you voluntarily own a television while children starve to death.

Let's pretend for a moment that I own a television. So children are starving to death because I own a television? That's the reason?

I gotta be really honest with you. I really don't think you care all that much about the reality of children starving to death, at least not in the context of this discussion.

Seeing as how, in a past discussion, you admitted that you aren't interested in discussing things with Christians, let alone learn anything about Christianity, it may be best to simply stop with playing games and just state what it is you want to say. And hopefully it's something more substantive than, "Religious people are stupid."

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

Do any of you take communion? Why? Jesus wasn't talking to you. He told his disciples to do it in remembrance of him. You don't remember Christ because no one here is 2000 years old. You only know of him.

See, I think that if Christ were to tell one particular person or one particular group of people to suck on a lolly pop or eat crackers and drink wine, then you all will do it. But if he commands one person to do something that is extraordinarily inconvenient, you all will not do it. And all the while you will talk about how you carry your crosses daily.

That command is for all believers , it's not just some bread btw

 

[Taom Ben Robert]

And you voluntarily own a television while children starve to death. Please reconcile that with the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Owning things is not forbidden, not helping others is forbidden, i.e. You can own things and still help others , it's not an either or situation .

 

[Strong in Him]

You're not Philemon, so maybe by this logic you don't need to read that epistle. The letters to Timothy and Titus are equally irrelevant to your life. You also don't attend the church in Corinth. We can also pitch Romans, Thessalonians, and whatever else I'm forgetting.

No, Radrook's post was correct.
The young man wanted to know how to receive eternal life and Jesus told him to keep the commandments. The young man replied that he had kept them, but if you notice, this only refers to the commands about loving your neighbour, (do not steal etc). The first 4 commands are about our relationship with God - having no other god, not having an idol etc. The young man didn't refer to these at all. He was very rich; his god was probably his money. Jesus knew this and told him to give it up - in other words, keep the first commandment and have no other god besides the Lord God. Elsewhere Jesus says "seek ye first the kingdom of God".

If money and possessions are not our idol, or god, then we don't need to give them up - unless the Lord specifically tells us to. Our god might be tv, computer games, food, sport or whatever. I believe at some time or other we will all be challenged as to who has first place in our lives, and may need to give up something.

This passage does not mean that God's command to all Christians is to give up their wealth. Money is to be our servant, not our master. If no Christian had money, who would support the missionaries, evangelists, clergy, pastoral work and so on and help maintain church buildings? The world? Would unbelievers support the work of the Gospel?

This is why I haven't voted in your poll. I hope I would be able to give up my money and possessions if the Lord told me to. So far, he hasn't. He's asking me to share/use them for the benefit of others, and I need to hold all of them lightly so they don't become my god and have first place in my life; but I'm not commanded to give them up.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

They are highly biased. They either equate 'riches' to crass material possessions

Jesus was the one offering riches. I'm not defining what that is; I'm just referring to it.

or imply there are no material possesions in heaven

Are there or aren't there?

or imply that the only reason to follow Christ is to be rewarded instead of from love and gratitude.

Seriously, did you not see the choice, "Yes, I want to do it regardless of whether or not I will be rewarded in heaven"?

You need a whole lot of extra options to make up for the highly biased ones you have. It is clear that you have a lack if understanding of the virtue of Charity.

Ok, how's this one:

No, it is highly inconvenient to give up my worldly possessions so I prefer to weasel out of this by saying that Jesus meant something different from what he actually said.

 

[Strong in Him]

Firstly, you shouldn't lead with a "yes" to a post that is both rude and erroneous.

Secondly, what is biased about the options? What option is being left out?

It would be good if there was an option; "other, please explain", or "none of the above".

 

[Nihilist Virus]

If no Christian had money, who would support the missionaries, evangelists, clergy, pastoral work and so on and help maintain church buildings?

Jesus never said anything about churches. He was homeless and broke. He said to not worry about what you will eat or wear; the birds and flowers do not toil the fields but God provides for them. Will he not provide for you also? How much faith do you have?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

That command is for all believers ,

Please justify.

Edit -ViaCrucis did it for you.

it's not just some bread btw

Actually it is.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

It would be good if there was an option; "other, please explain", or "none of the above".

I offered Quid est Veritas this:

No, it is highly inconvenient to give up my worldly possessions so I prefer to weasel out of this by saying that Jesus meant something different from what he actually said.

 

[Strong in Him]

Jesus never said anything about churches. He was homeless and broke. He said to not worry about what you will eat or wear; the birds and flowers do not toil the fields but God provides for them. Will he not provide for you also? How much faith do you have?

I have faith to believe that if God asks me to do something he will equip me to do it and provide for me while I am doing it. He has already shown his faithfulness to me over and over again, and I have no reason to believe that he wouldn't continue to do so.

You say that Jesus never said anything about churches - actually he founded the church. True he didn't say anything about large, expensive, fancy buildings that need lots of maintenance - personally, I don't like buildings and think people give far too much importance to them. So it wouldn't bother me too much if we didn't have them; or at least, not in the way, and on the scale, that we do now.
I notice you didn't refer to my comments on supporting evangelists and missionaries.

 

[Strong in Him]

I offered Quid est Veritas this:

No, it is highly inconvenient to give up my worldly possessions so I prefer to weasel out of this by saying that Jesus meant something different from what he actually said.

Or how about "no I think this poll is biased and refuse to vote"?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Owning things is not forbidden, not helping others is forbidden, i.e. You can own things and still help others , it's not an either or situation .

Except that Jesus told a guy to sell all he has and give the money to the poor.

But you reject this because Jesus was talking only to the one guy. May I ask then why it was recorded for all of us to read? Because if World of Warcraft is your god, you're supposed to give that up? OK, fair enough. Now tell me how your TV brings you closer to God. Would it not be BETTER to sell it? It would strengthen your walk with the Lord AND feed some kids for a month or so. Yet you don't do it. I can ONLY assume it's because you don't think you'll be rewarded fairly.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I notice you didn't refer to my comments on supporting evangelists and missionaries.

What kind of a response are you after?

 

[Strong in Him]

What kind of a response are you after?

I asked who would support all the missionaries, evangelists, clergy and the pastoral and other work of the Gospel, if all Christians gave up all their money - atheists like you, maybe?

 

[Nihilist Virus]

Let's pretend for a moment that I own a television. So children are starving to death because I own a television? That's the reason?

Straw man.

I gotta be really honest with you. I really don't think you care all that much about the reality of children starving to death, at least not in the context of this discussion.

Why do you say that?

Seeing as how, in a past discussion, you admitted that you aren't interested in discussing things with Christians, let alone learn anything about Christianity, it may be best to simply stop with playing games and just state what it is you want to say.

Leading with "Seeing as how" prompts me to expect justification of the previous claim. Yet this is irrelevant.

With regards to this irrelevant item, I don't recall what I said exactly but I know I said that Saul was not interested in the Gospel before he became Paul. I didn't catch your reply.

And hopefully it's something more substantive than, "Religious people are stupid."

-CryptoLutheran

My purpose here on these forums is to be the fire. I feel I've failed quite badly but what I'm trying to do is either burn up your faith or purify it. What I cannot stand is lukewarm Christianity. I much prefer that you are either hot or cold. I prefer that you wander the world doing good works in the name of Christ or else just live a sinful, indulgent life.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I asked who would support all the missionaries, evangelists, clergy and the pastoral and other work of the Gospel, if all Christians gave up all their money - atheists like you, maybe?

God, maybe? I literally just quoted you the scripture.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

And that argument might work if it wasn't for the fact that the Eucharist, via the apostles, was put into practice throughout the churches.

Got a biblical source or just church tradition?

Also, the language used is τοῦτο ποιεῖτε εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν ἀνάμνησιν, "do this for the remembrance of me", the concept of anamnesis (remembrance) is important in Christian theology. In the Jewish understanding of the Passover during the Seder it is said "We were slaves in Egypt", the act of remembrance of the Jewish people in the Passover is not merely to remember, it isn't a passive recollection of past events. For Jews it is an active participation in the event remembered, "We were slaves"

Ok, good point. Communion saved.

 

[Strong in Him]

God, maybe? I literally just quoted you the scripture.

Undoubtedly God. But how does he provide? By making money, houses, clothes etc materialise? No, he created the world and everything in it from nothing; he does not do that today. God would provide for me through other people. My food and shelter would come because he prompted people to provide it - whether they knew it was God who was prompting them or not.
So it might be that someone got a tax rebate and decided to give some of it to me so I could buy food. Or someone else might give some of their huge lottery win to allow me to buy new clothes. But if ALL the Christians had given up ALL their money, then it would be non Christians giving us this support.

How many Christians do you give money to because you respect the work they are doing and their decision to give up all their worldly goods in order to do it?

 

[Quid est Veritas?]

Jesus was the one offering riches. I'm not defining what that is; I'm just referring to it.



Are there or aren't there?



Seriously, did you not see the choice, "Yes, I want to do it regardless of whether or not I will be rewarded in heaven"?



Ok, how's this one:

No, it is highly inconvenient to give up my worldly possessions so I prefer to weasel out of this by saying that Jesus meant something different from what he actually said.

Let me spell it out for you. All your choices are biased. A choice that gives a negation of a biased statement such as 'regardless of reward' remains biased.
To ascribe our reasoning for the yes and no and then use language which makes the person saying yes or no appear ridiculous, is biased. All those options, regardless which wins, can be used to make us look silly, which is why people shouldn't vote. Radook and Strong in Him have both given you the correct answers which of course does not fit any of the criteria in your poll.

As to your last assertion, how do you know I am not a pennyless monk? This is clutching at straws and shows lack of understanding of language use if anything. There are many instances in the Gospels of Jesus visiting peoples' homes etc. and no one is ever told to sell them. It is clear this is a specific lesson for a specific individual from the context. I take it you don't read the Bible much, but if you actually read a bit, you would see your position is untenable.

 

[com7fy8]

You should give everything away again and wander North America doing good works, preaching the gospel.

I can't be a good soldier unless I first become a good citizen who knows what that we stand for, in Jesus. Jesus did not call His twelve, only to serve Him, only to preach or even do miracles. But >

"Then He appointed twelve, that they might be with Him and that He might send them out to preach" (Mark 3:14)

So, first we need to be with Jesus and one another, so we find out how to be and relate in love. Then we can represent Jesus right, while preaching Him.

And finding out how to love can come with staying in one place with Jesus family people, growing with each other, getting correction we need for loving in close relationships, not only "loving" in theory by doing distant and not really personal mass-produced humanitarian things.

I consider that Jesus meant for ones to sell what they had, but to personally distribute things. Then they could discover real love with ones they helped. They would not only give and leave them. We need to not only give in order to get rid of people from our conscience.

So, in case we do send help to far places, we need example people there with the ones we help.

Now I'm doing more to help ones who help others . . . not only with material aid, but personal helping. Before, yes I was walking even interstate, supporting myself by scavenging food and shelter materials, visiting different churches, but I was not really loving people. I have needed much correction to get real so I can bear with people and stay loving and pleasantly caring and patient with any and all people, including maybe hypocritical leaders who have been abusive and looking down on me.

Jesus is trusting us to love and have hope for any and all people. And we need to grow strong and healthy so we are not retreating from people who can be different, impossible, and nasty. Or else, we are not benefitting from the love meaning of the gospel > the deep spiritual result.