Sell all that you have, give to the poor, and follow me

[rjs330]

I think we need to put this Rich man thing applying to all christians to bed once and for all. Lets take a look at it verse by verse.

And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to jhave keternal life?” lIf you would enter life, keep the commandments.” m“You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, nYou shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

First of all we have to note is that he asked Jesus what he must do to have eternal life. It is a message of salvation.

Acts16:30 Then he brought them outside and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Jesus responds to the question to the rich ruler and answers his question. He says NOTHING about selling his stuff. He says
If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” m“You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, nYou shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

But this isn't the only time Jesus or the bible speaks about what you have to do to get saved and gain eternal life.

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.a”
Act 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household
Romans 9:because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
John 8:11 "Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Note that Jesus meets Nicodemus with an answer for him. He met the woman with an answer for her. Yet there is an an answer for everyone. "Whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." "Everyone who believes him will not be put to shame", "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." "Everyone who believes in the son will have eternal life" "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
And there are more if needed. More to come, ran out of time.

 

[LostMarbels]

And that purposeful intent you're picking up is the purpose he's supposed to have according to this section's SOP. I'm not going to lie and say I don't interject in others' exchanges often, but I can never resist pointing out Christians complaining that atheists are fulfilling the SOP of this section. Anywhere else on these forums, you might have a point. But in this section, he's the guest who's doing exactly what he was invited to do. This is the second time today I've pointed this out.

If you have a problem with people trying to prove Christianity is false, you're in the wrong place, bro. Your job, as the Christian, is to prove him foolish with actual scriptural evidence that his claims are false.

NV doesn't need me sticking up for him, and he might not want me to, but I can't keep my mouth shut when people pull this stunt.

And I am defending. I cannot defend without challenging. I need definitive answers that I can work with, rather than constantly responding to his questions. If I, the Christian, am kept on the ropes with a constant barrage of questions, I then have to go, and respond, to just have yet another question thrown at me; I will get nowhere. Being on the constant defense puts you on a reactionary path where you end up continually defending points you weren't even trying to convey. And he may not even be able to receive the answers given to him, because I have not yet addressed the core, or foundation of his belief. Either of us, both of us could be completely misunderstanding where the other is coming from.

So what I need to do is figure out why he believes christians should give up everything in order to not be lukewarm Christians. Where does that belief stem from? We know it is not biblical. And yet, he still attest to it. So I have to get an understanding of his belief, to understand how I can convince him contrary to his current belief system. He made the comments for a reason. So... how do the comments I pointed out relate to the topic at hand? That is what I need to get an explanation about. This is a two way street. I do not believe apologetics is a christian standing there responding to every punch thrown at them. Sometimes we have to punch back. Ask: What do you mean about this? How does it relate? Sometimes you stub toes. Part of apologetics requires the other person to defend their own point of veiw, and comments as related to the topic at hand. Not just us.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

I think we need to put this Rich man thing applying to all christians to bed once and for all. Lets take a look at it verse by verse.

And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to jhave keternal life?” lIf you would enter life, keep the commandments.” m“You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, nYou shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

First of all we have to note is that he asked Jesus what he must do to have eternal life. It is a message of salvation.

Acts16:30 Then he brought them outside and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Jesus responds to the question to the rich ruler and answers his question. He says NOTHING about selling his stuff. He says
If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” m“You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, nYou shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

But this isn't the only time Jesus or the bible speaks about what you have to do to get saved and gain eternal life.

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.a”
Act 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household
Romans 9:because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
John 8:11 "Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Note that Jesus meets Nicodemus with an answer for him. He met the woman with an answer for her. Yet there is an an answer for everyone. "Whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." "Everyone who believes him will not be put to shame", "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." "Everyone who believes in the son will have eternal life" "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
And there are more if needed. More to come, ran out of time.

This is not worthy of response until you indicate you've read post 166.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

And I am defending. I cannot defend without challenging. I need definitive answers that I can work with, rather than constantly responding to his questions. If I, the Christian, am kept on the ropes with a constant barrage of questions, I then have to go, and respond, to just have yet another question thrown at me; I will get nowhere. Being on the constant defense puts you on a reactionary path where you end up continually defending points you weren't even trying to convey. And he may not even be able to receive the answers given to him, because I have not yet addressed the core, or foundation of his belief. Either of us, both of us could be completely misunderstanding where the other is coming from.

So what I need to do is figure out why he believes christians should give up everything in order to not be lukewarm Christians. Where does that belief stem from? We know it is not biblical. And yet, he still attest to it. So I have to get an understanding of his belief, to understand how I can convince him contrary to his current belief system. He made the comments for a reason. So... how do the comments I pointed out relate to the topic at hand? That is what I need to get an explanation about. This is a two way street. I do not believe apologetics is a christian standing there responding to every punch thrown at them. Sometimes we have to punch back. Ask: What do you mean about this? How does it relate? Sometimes you stub toes. Part of apologetics requires the other person to defend their own point of veiw, and comments as related to the topic at hand. Not just us.

How about this. Can we agree that the passage is pointless if it was intended only for the rich young ruler? I'm interested in how you can defend the position of disagreement. For now I'll assume you agree. Therefore this message is intended for at least some of the readers. Please explain why you think you're not part of Jesus' demographic here, and also explain to us how we know what type of person is part of the demographic.

 

[Moral Orel]

And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to jhave keternal life?” lIf you would enter life, keep the commandments.” m“You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, nYou shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

First of all we have to note is that he asked Jesus what he must do to have eternal life. It is a message of salvation.

Acts16:30 Then he brought them outside and asked, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”

Jesus responds to the question to the rich ruler and answers his question. He says NOTHING about selling his stuff. He says
If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” m“You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, nYou shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

But this isn't the only time Jesus or the bible speaks about what you have to do to get saved and gain eternal life.

John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.a”
Act 16:31 They replied, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household
Romans 9:because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
John 8:11 "Then neither do I condemn you,"Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

Note that Jesus meets Nicodemus with an answer for him. He met the woman with an answer for her. Yet there is an an answer for everyone. "Whosoever believeth in him shall not perish but have everlasting life." "Everyone who believes him will not be put to shame", "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." "Everyone who believes in the son will have eternal life" "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
And there are more if needed. More to come, ran out of time.

1 John 3:17

 

[LostMarbels]

How about this. Can we agree that the passage is pointless if it was intended only for the rich young ruler?

No we can't. I do apologize but no.

Here is my reasoning. The passage is an admonishment for both the young man, and the reader. It is also a gut check, one of many where Jesus poses the question: "do I love Jesus more than....{*****}" It is also an example how hard it is to come to God when you already love something/someone else.

I'm interested in how you can defend the position of disagreement.

I think I answered that above.

For now I'll assume you agree. Therefore this message is intended for at least some of the readers. Please explain why you think you're not part of Jesus' demographic here, and also explain to us how we know what type of person is part of the demographic.

This is the kind of questioning I was pointing out. I can not give you an adequate answer to a presumptive statement. My attempt to reply to the stance you assume I have, has me dancing to your fiddle.

 

[rjs330]

Ok, to continue. Lets continue with the rich guys story. Jesus told him that for him to get eternal life he had to obey the law. He did not say anything at all about him selling his belongings to get eternal life. If that was a requirement to be a christian why didn't he say that? Why didn't he say obey the law and sell your stuff? He just said obey the law. That's it. And when we look at other scriptures mentioned salvation is a matter of belief. In fact there are tons of scriptures that state the same. But before Jesus death and resurrection the law was the way. That was the point of the law to show sin. But then this young man then went on.
20The young man said to Him, “All these things I have kept; what am I still lacking?” 21Jesus said to him, “If you wish to be complete, go and sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22But when the young man heard this statement, he went away grieving; for he was one who owned much property.

The rich guy said he had done all the things Jesus mentioned. Now we have no back story to this guy. But we know that Jesus was really good and reading people. He could see into their hearts and lives. We see this a lot when he dealt with people. He knew where this guys weakness was. This guy says he does the things Jesus told him to do. Now this guy still felt like he was lacking something. Something inside of him was telling him he was still missing something. He said he was doing what Jesus told him to do, but he felt like he was still lacking. This guy obviously had a high opinion of himself didn't he? Yet he knew even though he was doing all the things Jesus said (a high opinion of his works) he still believed he was missing something. He could have just walked away at that point. Jesus answered his question. All he needed to do to gain eternal life was to do what Jesus said. He could have walked away satisfied that he had done what Jesus said he needed to do. But he didn't. HE is the one that took the conversation further, not Jesus. Something was not sitting right with him. The bible doesn't say what it was it just says what he did. He then asks Jesus a second question. HE asked. Jesus had said nothing more. HE asked. What else is there? Jesus saw into his heart and knew his real weakness. The man asked what am I lacking? The indication here is he felt he was missing something and wanted to do whatever it was. But Jesus knew he was not really willing to do whatever it took. So Jesus hit him where the rubber met the road for him. "Sell all your possessions and give to the poor." This was a personal hit. What must I do, what am I lacking. Him, he, what was he lacking. Jesus said you are lacking because you are trusting in your wealth. This was personal. Note that Jesus said if you want to be "complete". He did not say "if you want eternal life." The man asked what he was lacking in in his life and Jesus told him how to be complete. He had to sell his possession and give them to the poor. He was lacking and Jesus knew it. Then Jesus said "follow me." It's interesting to note that Jesus gave the man the opportunity to follow him. Many of the people he contacted he didn't say that to. He tells them to go and sin no more or pick up your bed and walk or so many other things. But he gives this guy to opportunity to be part of his group. He told the man to follow him after he sold his stuff and gave it away. But he knew the guy believed that his money and his wealth was more important to him than being complete and following him. He tried to tell the guy not to be concerned with that because he will get treasures in heaven. But the guy so concerned with his money that he did not really want to be complete. He didn't really want to follow Jesus. He didn't really want to be part of his group. So the man went away sad because he wasn't willing to do whatever it took to be complete. It was not a matter of eternal life it was a matter of completeness for him.

This is why this applies to the rich man only. It was personal and it applied to completeness not eternal life. How complete do we want to be as believers.

And Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24“Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.” 25When the disciples heard this, they were very astonished and said, “Then who can be saved?” 26And looking at them Jesus said to them, “With people this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Yes is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom, but not impossible because with God all things are possible. Its a matter of trust. Jesus addressed this in Matthew 6:20-21. The stuff on earth we have should not be our treasures. Do not lay up treasures on earth, but treasures in heaven. Because where our treasures are is where our heart is. The rich man proved that in his own life. He did not want to give up his wealth. It was more important to him. So it was not a matter of eternal life. But of completeness.

 

[Nihilist Virus]

No we can't. I do apologize but no.

Here is my reasoning. The passage is an admonishment for both the young man, and the reader. It is also a gut check, one of many where Jesus poses the question: "do I love Jesus more than....{*****}" It is also an example how hard it is to come to God when you already love something/someone else.


I think I answered that above.



This is the kind of questioning I was pointing out. I can not give you an adequate answer to a presumptive statement. My attempt to reply to the stance you assume I have, has me dancing to your fiddle.

Incoherent response.

No we can't [agree that the passage is pointless if it was intended only for the rich young ruler].

The passage is an admonishment for both the young man, and the reader.

So by disagreeing you think there can be a reason for the passage to exist despite it being meant only for the rich young ruler. You then go on to say that the message carries meaning for someone other than the rich young ruler.

 

[rjs330]

Incoherent response.

No we can't [agree that the passage is pointless if it was intended only for the rich young ruler].

The passage is an admonishment for both the young man, and the reader.

So by disagreeing you think there can be a reason for the passage to exist despite it being meant only for the rich young ruler. You then go on to say that the message carries meaning for someone other than the rich young ruler.

There are commands,and there are principles. We as,believers look to the,commands and also the,principles of scripture. There was no command here. If the rich man wanted to be complete not lacking, he needed to give it all away. The principle for us is here. If we feel,we are lacking then find out what it is and give it away. Give it all up for Jesus.

Do we believers always do that? No we don't. You are very correct in pointing out that often we are hypocrites in our ways. But on the other hand we also do really try to,live right and in obedience and live up to the principles in the word. There just in nothing sinful in,owning a tv. But if I saw my brother in need and I could help him,by selling my tv I should. But what you miss here is that in America we are blessed. And because we are blessed we can give and support without selling the tv. I will tell you this. If I saw someone in need and I refused to help because I had to sell my tv to do so that's wrong. I should sell it and give the money to my brother.

My wife and I are doing pretty well financially. We are not rich but can live comfortably on what we have. I think God has blessed us precisely because of the principles in the word. We have been faithful to give to those in need. When we did we found God giving us blessings.

 

[Moral Orel]

If I saw someone in need and I refused to help because I had to sell my tv to do so that's wrong.

I'm confused. I'm sure you're aware of people in need. In case you aren't, follow that link and you will be. And I think it's clear you haven't sold your TV. So what am I missing?

Do you have to see needy people in person for it to count? Isn't knowing they exist and where you can help enough?

 

[rjs330]

I'm confused. I'm sure you're aware of people in need. In case you aren't, follow that link and you will be. And I think it's clear you haven't sold your TV. So what am I missing?

Do you have to see needy people in person for it to count? Isn't knowing they exist and where you can help enough?

I find it interesting that I said we help,people and you choose to send me,information on how to help. I don't have to sell my tv to do it. We set money aside every paycheck and give it away to,a number of different places. There have been plenty of times we've given to people where we won't get a tax deduction because that's not our focus. We look for need and give. I guess if you want to throw out judgement because I'm not selling my tv I guess I'll just have to be a hypocrite in your eyes. I know I'm in good standing with the Lord. He knows that if he required it of me I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I'm confused. I'm sure you're aware of people in need. In case you aren't, follow that link and you will be. And I think it's clear you haven't sold your TV. So what am I missing?

Do you have to see needy people in person for it to count? Isn't knowing they exist and where you can help enough?

 

[Moral Orel]

I find it interesting that I said we help,people and you choose to send me,information on how to help. I don't have to sell my tv to do it. We set money aside every paycheck and give it away to,a number of different places. There have been plenty of times we've given to people where we won't get a tax deduction because that's not our focus. We look for need and give. I guess if you want to throw out judgement because I'm not selling my tv I guess I'll just have to be a hypocrite in your eyes. I know I'm in good standing with the Lord. He knows that if he required it of me I'd do it in a heartbeat.

I'm sorry if I came off that way. I honestly didn't mean to. I don't think you're a bad person for owning a TV. And I don't think you're a hypocrite because you aren't telling people to sell their TV.

I think you are rationalizing away what scripture requires. That's all. And I also think that is completely normal. Reza Aslan once said, "People put more into their religious documents than they take out of it" (paraphrased a little, I'm sure). The Bible never talks about being "good enough" so you can never do "enough". But giving it all away is an unreasonable request, and I don't blame anyone for not complying.

 

[miknik5]

Vote!

Know the difference between TRUE TREASURE and temporal "trinkets"

The "rich" young man didn't