Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

Ron Gurley · Aug 14, 2018

IMPUTED RIGHTEOUSNESS:

2 Corinthians 5:21
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Danthemailman · Aug 14, 2018

JLB777 said:
You can’t even be honest enough to see what lost means.

You are that deceived.

JLB

I already explained what it means in post #874.
It's you who is deceived because of your works salvation confusion.

Danthemailman · Aug 14, 2018

JLB777 said:
Here is who are righteous -

He who practices righteousness is righteous,

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.
1 John 3:7

JLB

He who practices righteousness (descriptive of children of God) is righteous. Children of God do not practice righteousness in order to become righteous, but BECAUSE they are righteous. More "works salvation confusion" on your part.

1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

How do we become righteous? Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Danthemailman · Aug 14, 2018

JLB777 said:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29

Once again, more "works salvation confusion" on your part. You continue to read the Bible through the lens of works salvation and you also continue to confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of Scripture.

The good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis of their salvation but the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of his heart.

Doing good flows inescapably from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows equally inescapably from a heart that is unsaved, as we already saw in Romans 2:6-10.

If one reads Romans 2:6-10 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving eternal life.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal.

*Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved.

Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. This is descriptive of unbelievers.

*Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means of our salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1, but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. *Also see (Romans 4:2-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9).

Just as in John 5:28, *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and in verse 29, ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

Are believers described as "those who have done good" or those who have done evil?"

Are unbelievers described as those "who have done evil" or "those who have done good?"

Your doctrine teaches people they can do evil, and hate, and still receive eternal life.

those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

When all else fails, play the straw man card.

Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. 1 John 3:15

Descriptive of an unbeliever. *Don't forget the context.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 14, 2018

I said this:
"No, you ignored the core of my question. I PROVED that the gift of etenral life is given to those who BELIEVE, not at the end of one's physical life as you erroneously misunderstand Scripture."

JLB777 said:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

You're really not interested in an adult discussion, are you?

I've refuted your abuse of Rom 2:7 and all you do is cut and paste into more posts.

Why haven't you even tried to refute my explanation, which agrees with the rest of Scripture, unlike your view, which doesn't.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 14, 2018

JLB777 said:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; Romans 2:7

Who receives eternal life?

those who by patient continuance in doing good

OK, please explain then, why Christ died for everyone's sins. If eternal life is received by what WE do, as you think Rom 2:7 means, then why did Christ die for us?

I'll bet you have no explanation.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 14, 2018

Gr8Grace said: ↑
Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

JLB777 said:
Do you even understand what Jesus is saying here?

He is saying the same exact thing in John 10:27 and John 5:28-29

This who hear and obey Him will receive eternal life.

Except there is no "obey" or "keep the commandments" in either John 5:24 or 10:28.

So 5:28,29 refers to believing only. It is "good" to believe in Jesus Christ.

It is false and very bad, to preach that one can earn eternal life by what they do.

Lady Bug · Aug 14, 2018

I want to read all 47 pages of this thread, but I just can't and I hope someone understand that lol. But the subject of eternal security is one that is almost causing me to lose faith in the Bible because it seems like there are too many contradictions in it on this subject. I've never had as many problems as I do on this subject. One disclaimer though before I continue - - I actually want OSAS to be true, whereas I can surmise that many/most OSAS proponents don't want it to be true, so at least I'm trying to keep my options open.

From time to time I might come back and give verses that trouble me, but I have a couple right now.

The one verse where Jesus is saying (Matthew 5:29) that we should cut out our eye (OK we don't literally do this) if it causes us to sin, because it is better to enter life maimed than to have our entire body cast into hell. This appears to be saying that we can go to hell for sin. On the other hand Jesus says in another verse (Matthew 5:19) about if we break the least of his commandments, we are least in the kingdom of heaven, which implies that we don't forfeit heaven if we sin, but we just end up being at the bottom of the barrel. So I can't seem to reconcile this contradiction.

Then there is another verse in Romans (Romans 11:22) that says that if the Gentiles do not continue in the goodness of the faith, they will be cut off. According to verse 20, these Gentiles were already in the faith, but risked being cut off if they did not continue in that faith.

Also James 5:19 and 20 seem to imply that a brother in Christ can sin and risk his soul of death and that if we turn back our brother from the error of his ways we can save his soul from death. How can that possibly coexist with OSAS?

Also, 1 John 1:9 is saying that if we confess our sins, God will forgive us and cleanse us of unrighteousness. Why would we need to confess our sins for forgiveness if we are forgiven past,, present, and future? That would make no sense.

1 John 3:15 says that he who hates his brother is a murderer and that no murderer has eternal life in him. We are talking about brother to brother - brothers in Christ already - and it's saying right here that such people do not have eternal life in them if they have hate. It also says that in 1 John 2: 11 that he who hates is brother is in darkness. Darkness always implies of the devil, not of God.

Another verse that strikes me is Luke 14:27 - he who does not deny his cross and follow Jesus cannot be his disciple - yet anti-Lordship salvationists say that we do not have to obey Jesus to demonstrate that we're his disciples - - come on, how can that reconcile with this verse?

JLB777 · Aug 14, 2018

Danthemailman said:
He who practices righteousness (descriptive of children of God) is righteous. Children of God do not practice righteousness in order to become righteous, but BECAUSE they are righteous. More "works salvation confusion" on your part.

1 John 3:10 - By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

How do we become righteous? Romans 4:5 - But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works.

Not work to become righteous, but obey God.

JLB777 · Aug 14, 2018

Lady Bug said:
I want to read all 47 pages of this thread, but I just can't and I hope someone understand that lol. But the subject of eternal security is one that is almost causing me to lose faith in the Bible because it seems like there are too many contradictions in it on this subject. I've never had as many problems as I do on this subject. One disclaimer though before I continue - - I actually want OSAS to be true, whereas I can surmise that many/most OSAS proponents don't want it to be true, so at least I'm trying to keep my options open.

From time to time I might come back and give verses that trouble me, but I have a couple right now.

The one verse where Jesus is saying (Matthew 5:29) that we should cut out our eye (OK we don't literally do this) if it causes us to sin, because it is better to enter life maimed than to have our entire body cast into hell. This appears to be saying that we can go to hell for sin. On the other hand Jesus says in another verse (Matthew 5:19) about if we break the least of his commandments, we are least in the kingdom of heaven, which implies that we forfeit heaven if we sin, but we just end up being at the bottom of the barrel. So I can't seem to reconcile this contradiction.

Then there is another verse in Romans (Romans 11:22) that says that if the Gentiles do not continue in the goodness of the faith, they will be cut off. According to verse 20, these Gentiles were already in the faith, but risked being cut off if they did not continue in that faith.

Also James 5:19 and 20 seem to imply that a brother in Christ can sin and risk his soul of death and that if we turn back our brother from the error of his ways we can save his soul from death. How can that possibly coexist with OSAS?

Also, 1 John 1:9 is saying that if we confess our sins, God will forgive us and cleanse us of unrighteousness. Why would we need to confess our sins for forgiveness if we are forgiven past,, present, and future? That would make no sense.

1 John 3:15 says that he who hates his brother is a murderer and that no murderer has eternal life in him. We are talking about brother to brother - brothers in Christ already - and it's saying right here that such people do not have eternal life in them if they have hate. It also says that in 1 John 2: 11 that he who hates is brother is in darkness. Darkness always implies of the devil, not of God.

Another verse that strikes me is Luke 14:27 - he who does not deny his cross and follow Jesus cannot be his disciple - yet anti-Lordship salvationists say that we do not have to obey Jesus to demonstrate that we're his disciples - - come on, how can that reconcile with this verse?

So true.

Those who promote OSAS ingnore most all of these verses and more in favor of 1 or 2 verses they take out of context while ignoring the rest of the New Testament.

Be blessed as you stand for the truth.

He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

These people promote a doctrine of living in sin, disobeying Christ and His teachings while attacking anybody who refutes their unrighteous doctrine with the truth of scripture.

Knowing Him is the definition of eternal life.

Those who reject the doctrine of Christ in favor of their own preconceived mindset have rejected Christ Himself.

Whoever transgresses and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 9

If we sin, we are to confess our sins in order to be forgiven and cleansed of all unrighteousness.

JLB

FreeGrace2 · Aug 15, 2018

Lady Bug said:
I want to read all 47 pages of this thread, but I just can't and I hope someone understand that lol. But the subject of eternal security is one that is almost causing me to lose faith in the Bible because it seems like there are too many contradictions in it on this subject. I've never had as many problems as I do on this subject. One disclaimer though before I continue - - I actually want OSAS to be true, whereas I can surmise that many/most OSAS proponents don't want it to be true, so at least I'm trying to keep my options open.

I don't understand your surmising about OSAS proponents not wanting eternal security to be true. Of course we do. And we believe it is true.

Since you want it to be true, just believe what Jesus sais so clearly in John 10:28. "I give them (those who have believed) eternal life, and they shall never perish."

It couldn't be any more clear than this. On the basis of being given eternal life, the recipient will never perish.

Also note from John 3:36, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13, we know that believers "have", which means possess, eternal life. So it's clear that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN one believes.

From time to time I might come back and give verses that trouble me, but I have a couple right now.

Just know that IF there were any verses that did teach loss of salvation, then John 10:28 cannot be true, and is, therefore, a lie. Which would be ridiculous.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 15, 2018

JLB777 said:
He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Also, he (yourself) who says "I know Him" and does NOT believe His words in John 10:28, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

These people promote a doctrine of living in sin, disobeying Christ and His teachings while attacking anybody who refutes their unrighteous doctrine with the truth of scripture.

I hope ladybug realizes that this is a lie, and totally dishonest. No one that I know of, and no one on this thread has EVER "promoted a doctrine of living in sin".

I've ALWAYS included the doctrine of God's discipline, which is painful (Heb 12:11) and taught by Paul in 1 Cor 11:30 and other passages.

No one will get away with anything.

Knowing Him is the definition of eternal life.

And beieving in Him is the WAY to receive eternal life.

Those who reject the doctrine of Christ in favor of their own preconceived mindset have rejected Christ Himself.

This describes you to a T.

Lady Bug · Aug 15, 2018

My stuff is in a different color.

FreeGrace2 said:
I don't understand your surmising about OSAS proponents not wanting eternal security to be true. Of course we do. And we believe it is true.

I meant to say opponents, not proponents. That was a mistake of mine.

Since you want it to be true, just believe what Jesus sais so clearly in John 10:28. "I give them (those who have believed) eternal life, and they shall never perish."

It couldn't be any more clear than this. On the basis of being given eternal life, the recipient will never perish.

Also note from John 3:36, 5:24, 6:47 and 1 John 5:13, we know that believers "have", which means possess, eternal life. So it's clear that the gift of eternal life is given WHEN one believes.

Just know that IF there were any verses that did teach loss of salvation, then John 10:28 cannot be true, and is, therefore, a lie. Which would be ridiculous.

I don't have a problem with the verses you mentioned, I just don't feel at ease unless I know a proper counterargument against the particular verses I pointed out. If I can get a convincing counterargument, I'd feel better. That's all I'm asking.

Lady Bug · Aug 15, 2018

I understand that by the time this thread has gone this long, you may be exasperated beyond words but that's not how I'm trying to make you feel, I swear.

GodsGrace101 · Aug 15, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Well, maybe in your circle, but the Bible says this:

Matt 7:1 - Judge not, that ye be not judged.

But it seems you don't believe that verse either.

Wow. There's a whole lot of verses that you are in direct opposition with.

You haven't told me anything yet.

If I can't judge, how do I know you're stealing?
Can I not judge that you're breaking one of the commandments?

Does this mean I can judge YOUR SOUL?

The answer to the first is YES.
The answer to the second is NO.

I can know that one is sinning.
A friend of mine is living with her boyfriend.
I know this is wrong...difficult to stop the brain from thinking.
Well, in most cases.

But I CANNOT judge her soul.... this is between her and God.
Some concepts are soooo easy to understand.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 15, 2018

Lady Bug said:
I understand that by the time this thread has gone this long, you may be exasperated beyond words but that's not how I'm trying to make you feel, I swear.

Please don't think I'm anyway hear exasperated. I enjoy discussing God's Word, even when other posters are in vigorous opposition.

And thanks for the clarification about opponents.

I hope John 10:28 gives you comfort.

Also consider Eph 1:13,14 along with Eph 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22. Opponents of eternal security cannot explain these verses without twisting the very meaning out of them.

Eph 1-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Opponents of eternal security would have you believe that grieving the Holy Spirit would result in loss of salvation, yet Eph 4:30 noted what we are sealed for; day of redemption.

Also consider 1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Notice that Peter's words parallel what Jesus said in John 10:28 about never perishing.

Opponents of eternal security try to argue that being born again of imperishable seed doesn't remove the possibility of perishing. But does that make any sense at all? Of course not.

I hope these verses give you great comfort and assurance.

FreeGrace2 · Aug 15, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
If I can't judge, how do I know you're stealing?
Can I not judge that you're breaking one of the commandments?

Does this mean I can judge YOUR SOUL?

The answer to the first is YES.
The answer to the second is NO.

I can know that one is sinning.
A friend of mine is living with her boyfriend.
I know this is wrong...difficult to stop the brain from thinking.
Well, in most cases.

But I CANNOT judge her soul.... this is between her and God.
Some concepts are soooo easy to understand.

What you have conveniently missed (ignored) is that your post intended to judge my soul. My motive.

Lady Bug · Aug 15, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Please don't think I'm anyway hear exasperated. I enjoy discussing God's Word, even when other posters are in vigorous opposition.

And thanks for the clarification about opponents.

I hope John 10:28 gives you comfort.

Also consider Eph 1:13,14 along with Eph 4:30 and 2 Cor 1:22. Opponents of eternal security cannot explain these verses without twisting the very meaning out of them.

Eph 1-
13 And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,
14 who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 - And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

2 Cor 1:22 - set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Opponents of eternal security would have you believe that grieving the Holy Spirit would result in loss of salvation, yet Eph 4:30 noted what we are sealed for; day of redemption.

Also consider 1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Notice that Peter's words parallel what Jesus said in John 10:28 about never perishing.

Opponents of eternal security try to argue that being born again of imperishable seed doesn't remove the possibility of perishing. But does that make any sense at all? Of course not.

I hope these verses give you great comfort and assurance.

All of those verses give assurance I just have another problem (you may be going "sigh...here she goes again..." lol but anyway).

how are we to know that the promise of the seal of the Holy Spirit is unconditional? sometimes a promise can be such that "I promise you this if you..."

GodsGrace101 · Aug 15, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
Please confess and repent of your blatant blasphemy against the Son of God. Why would you even think such evil thoughts?

Correct. As I noted above. The parable of the prodigal perfectly illustrates the principle of confession AND repentance.

These are the silly things we have to speak about when the main premise of the entire N.T. is not understood or accepted.

Man is both a physical and spiritual being.

Why do you persist in the erroneous thinking that a person who is placed IN HIM, per the sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit, can be undone?

It's not smart to persist in a view that cannot be evidenced from Scripture. Eph 1:13,14 does not permit such sloppy thinking

Those who persist in such thinking persist in sloppy thinking.

Think about it.

An evil thought is someone believing they can disobey God and STILL be saved. This is so rediculous it does not deserve a response.

As to believing meaning obeying: This might be of help to you:

http://greekwordstudies.blogspot.com/2007/03/obey.html

Also:

TO BELIEVE MEANS TO OBEY JOHN 3:16
Posted on March 9, 2013 by Mishayah 36 comments
An excerpt from http://www.jesuswordsonly.com/images/stories/Salvation/John 3 16.pdf

John 3:16:Obeying Unto Christ Should Save?

Introduction

When the English translations of the Greek New Tes- tament were made in the 1526-1611 period, the “difficult Greek in which the New Testament is written…still held mys- teries for” English scholars. (Nicolson: 224.) One of those mysteries was the Greek word pisteuo in John 3:16. In over 200 instances of pisteuo in the New Testament, not once did the King James Bible render it as obey. (See Strong’s Concor- dance.) However, scholars now realize obey was a common meaning of pisteuo in ancient Greek. Obey certainly was the meaning of pisteuo in John 3:36 (see page 448). Yet, this obe- dience salvation formula is identically repeated in John 3:16.

Besides John 3:36 helping, one can more easily accept pisteou means obeys in John 3:16 when one looks at Apostle John’s many quotes of Jesus about obedience. Jesus in John 8:51 says “whoever keeps on obeying (tereo) My Teaching

should never ever die.”1 In John 15:1-10, Jesus says a “branch in me” that does not “bear fruit” is “taken away,”

“cut off from the vine,” thrown “outside and burned.” 2 John likewise quoted Jesus saying in total accord:

Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good [things], unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil [things], unto the resurrection of damnation. (John 5:28-29 KJV).

This also:

https://onecanhappen.wordpress.com/2016/07/18/john-316-greek-word-for-believe-also-means-obey/

Gr8Grace · Aug 15, 2018

Lady Bug said:
I understand that by the time this thread has gone this long, you may be exasperated beyond words but that's not how I'm trying to make you feel, I swear.

Knowing that we are saved and will never perish...... Is paramount to know to advance in His word and to grow as a born-again believer. It is the first doctrine that we have to have settled and SET in our minds. And then study His word through that glorious Truth.

John 5:24...." does not come into judgement" a double negative in the original. We will not, absolutely will not come into judgement.

John 10:28..." never perish"....Another double negative, we will never, NO not ever perish.

Eph 2:8...."have been saved" A periphrastic perfect in the original. We have been saved in the past, and that result stands now and forever. And the periphrastic adds emphasis. It puts added exclamation to the phrase!!!!

Reading the bible through this lens of truth opens up the deeper meaning of scripture and how to truly live the Christian way of life.

~~~~
The 'troubling' verses you brought up become clearer and bring out doctrines that most reject today.

The doctrine of fellowship.
The doctrine of discipline.
The doctrine of reward.

Service, Divine good(and not human good), SHOWING others our faith, How we should follow and obey, and many more truths.

Whether we choose to go deeper with the Lord or stay at the starting line........we are saved, and saved forever.

Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

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