Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[WordSword]

If we cannot reject our salvation, then explain falling away.

Hi Dan, and appreciate your reply and comment! My understanding is that if one leaves (falls away) a profession of faith it is a false profession they are falling from, not one which is genuine (which always remains), as there have been and are many false professors, i.e. "Yea, a man may say" (Jam 2:18).

God bless!

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Everyone's understanding is subject to change.

 

[FreeGrace2]

If we cannot reject our salvation, then explain falling away.

Sure. It refers to ceasing to believe. Which is what Jesus said in Luke 8:13.

There are no verses about having to continue to believe in order to continue to be saved, yet that is the prime view of those who claim salvation can be lost.

In fact, Jesus refuted such a view in John 10:28 where He stated the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life, which is given WHEN one believes, per John 3:15, 5:24 and 6:47.

Now, John 10:28 -
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand."

The red words show us the CAUSE of having eternal life; Jesus Christ Himself, who gives eternal life to those who have believed in Him.

The blue words show us the EFFECT of having eternal life; which is to never perish.

So, between WHEN one believes and HAS eternal life, and never perishing, Jesus gave us no conditions for recipients to meet in order to never perish.

So, the ONLY condition for never perishing is to possess eternal life.

 

[bling]

If we cannot reject our salvation, then explain falling away.

Dan,
As you say: We can sell or give away our birthright to heaven like Esau gave his birthright away and the Hebrew writer warns us not to do, but salvation cannot be misplaced, lost like you loss your keys, taken from you, and even God will not take it back which is just like a birthright.
The idea is not to work to keep your salvation it is yours right now you own it, but since you own it you can do what you want with it, so God is helping you with good works to keep the perceived value of your salvation high so you will not give it away.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Dan,
As you say: We can sell or give away our birthright to heaven like Esau gave his birthright away and the Hebrew writer warns us not to do

Please provide clear evidence from Scripture that a saved person can give away his eternal life, which is what salvation really is. Thanks.

The idea is not to work to keep your salvation it is yours right now you own it, but since you own it you can do what you want with it

Again, please provide evidence from Scripture that anyone can "do what you want with it".

Instead, Paul taught that those having believed (aorist) ARE sealed with the Holy Spirit, as a guarantee of our inheritance, as God's possession.

Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.

so God is helping you with good works to keep the perceived value of your salvation high so you will not give it away.

Evidence, please.

 

[Dan the deacon]

Hi Dan, and appreciate your reply and comment! My understanding is that if one leaves (falls away) a profession of faith it is a false profession they are falling from, not one which is genuine (which always remains), as there have been and are many false professors, i.e. "Yea, a man may say" (Jam 2:18).

God bless!

T

 

[Dan the deacon]

So of one is not really saved, what did they fall away from?

 

[sdowney717]

So of one is not really saved, what did they fall away from?

They fall away from the faith. They depart from the faith.
'the faith ', but does it say 'their faith'?
So they leave the still faithful church, which shows they are not of the church, or they would not have departed 'the faith'.

1 Timothy 4:1 [ The Great Apostasy ] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

 

[Dan the deacon]

Hi Dan, and appreciate your reply and comment! My understanding is that if one leaves (fialls away) a profession of faith it is a false profession they are falling from, not one which is genuine (which always remains), as there have been and are many false professors, i.e. "Yea, a man may say" (Jam 2:18).

God bless!

Sorry, that is not a fall. Such a person would be at the same level as before.

 

[Gr8Grace]

Regarding the commentators, I disagree. I find that commentators simply parrot what they've been taught in Seminary. Take any given passage and a commentator will usually interpret it based on his preconceived beliefs. I don't really find that very useful.

I've found that too many commentators and pastor simply don't know what the Bible teaches. That may seem like a rather bold claim, but it's true. The reason is they simply parrot what they've been taught. Each denomination has a set of preconceived beliefs that have been handed down for generations. All too often these are wrong.

This is why the simple, very simple idea of salvation is debated to this day.

BELIEVE and be SAVED FOREVER. Acts 16:31; John 10:28.

What believers lack is the meat. We can and will be disciplined if we continue in a life of sin or evil. We can have a GLORIOUS life as a believer IF we follow Him. But we can have a completely miserable life if we choose to defy Him.

THIS is what is UNKNOWN to the majority of believers. We are saved and saved FOREVER the moment we believe.......But how we act and follow Him determines our status/rank in heaven.

REAL/GIFTED pastor teachers will teach this truth. Commentators/wolves/false teachers will teach.....you really were not saved or you will lose salvation.

 

[Dan the deacon]

They fall away from the faith. They depart from the faith.
'the faith ', but does it say 'their faith'?
So they leave the still faithful church, which shows they are not of the church, or they would not have departed 'the faith'.

1 Timothy 4:1 [ The Great Apostasy ] Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons,

Doesn't the word depart have a meaning to you? It means to leave. You cannot leave from a place you are not at.
Also, one can be put out of the Church according to St. PAUL. Christ is not coming back to collect me or you but for His Church. Our job is to be a part of that Church.

 

[sdowney717]

Doesn't the word depart have a meaning to you? It means to leave. You cannot leave from a place you are not at.
Also, one can be put out of the Church according to St. PAUL. Christ is not coming back to collect me or you but for His Church. Our job is to be a part of that Church.

They personally depart the faith, but they do not depart their faith as they did not have faith that came from God who preserves His saints.

Who does the preserving? Us or God?
We 'are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation'.
The means God uses here by His power is faith.
God's power grants to us our faith. All things work to the good of them that love God who are the called according to His purpose. ALL things! So its impossible for anything to happen that would cause His people to abandon their faith as that would be a bad thing.

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.

God preserves those He calls to be saved.
Jude New King James Version (NKJV)
Greeting to the Called

1 Jude, a bondservant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James,

To those who are called, [a]sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

2 Mercy, peace, and love be multiplied to you.

All the problems with understanding this goes away if you stop believing God calls all men to be saved! That call is a sovereign decree, those not called to be saved wont be. Believers are born again before they have their faith.

John 3, that word see means to perceive. Unless first born again, a person will not want anything to do with Christ as the Lord God come in the flesh as their savior. All of it will just be foolishness to them.

3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”

5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”

We are born again by His will, not our will, you can not control where the wind will blow.

 

[sdowney717]

Whom HE called, HE JUSTIFIED!
We are justified by faith in Christ
Not all have faith in Christ, so obviously, not all are called.
If you believe otherwise, then your anti scripture, against the truth of scripture.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Doesn't the word depart have a meaning to you? It means to leave. You cannot leave from a place you are not at.

There are not any verses that say one "departs salvation". There are verses that say one can "depart the faith". They are different.

"The faith" is the body of what one believes. It isn't salvation itself.

Also, one can be put out of the Church according to St. PAUL.

Excommunication is not losing salvation. Not even close.

Christ is not coming back to collect me or you but for His Church. Our job is to be a part of that Church.

Then you're going to have to explain why Jesus lied in John 10:28 when He taught the ONLY CONDITION for never perishing is to be given the gift of eternal life.

Please proceed.

 

[Dan the deacon]

There are not any verses that say one "departs salvation". There are verses that say one can "depart the faith". They are different.

"The faith" is the body of what one believes. It isn't salvation itself.


Excommunication is not losing salvation. Not even close.


Then you're going to have to explain why Jesus lied in John 10:28 when He taught the ONLY CONDITION for never perishing is to be given the gift of eternal life.

Please proceed.

Hogwash. The faith is real faith. Faith is not of man but given of God.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hogwash.

Hogwash??

This is what I said:
"There are not any verses that say one "departs salvation". There are verses that say one can "depart the faith". They are different.

"The faith" is the body of what one believes. It isn't salvation itself.


Excommunication is not losing salvation. Not even close.


Then you're going to have to explain why Jesus lied in John 10:28 when He taught the ONLY CONDITION for never perishing is to be given the gift of eternal life.

Please proceed."

The faith is real faith. Faith is not of man but given of God.

This comment isn't even relevant to what I said.

Where is the Scriptural evidence to support your claim that "departing the faith" equals departing salvation?

 

[sdowney717]

Hogwash. The faith is real faith. Faith is not of man but given of God.

You don't believe what Christ says about eternal life. He gives them age enduring eternal life, then Christ says they will never perish.

 

[WordSword]

Sorry, that is not a fall. Such a person would be at the same level as before.

I think I understand you, but to me when they leave their false profession they now no longer can use it for a front and their conscience cushion.

 

[Gr8Grace]

If we cannot reject our salvation, then explain falling away.

Falling away~~~~Leaving FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE.Depending on our own works/lifestyle/'good' deeds for our salvation.

We reject HIS salvation of puny little us. And rely on our puny little works 'for' Him.

This is rejection of our salvation/falling away. THANK GOD HE doesn't reject us. John 10:28.

 

[Dan the deacon]

Falling away~~~~Leaving FAITH ALONE IN CHRIST ALONE.Depending on our own works/lifestyle/'good' deeds for our salvation.

We reject HIS salvation of puny little us. And rely on our puny little works 'for' Him.

This is rejection of our salvation/falling away. THANK GOD HE doesn't reject us. John 10:28.

Amen. Thank God indeed.