Seeking A Solid Response

[Ironhold]

You didn't engage the 1 John 4 passage about guarding against false prophets!

Because that's not the topic of this thread.

The passage I posted in 1 Corinthians is.

According to Joseph Smith:

Try "According to something made up by some critic of the church to sell their book."

That's right: even mainline Christianity has had to admit that anti-Mormon literature is often full of lies and half-truths.

Mormon Apologetic Scholarship and Evangelical Neglect

We do not enter into a relationship with God through grace but by works

Starting with this one as an example.

The actual theology of the church leans heavily on James 2: if your life does not reflect your faith, then your faith is as good as dead. Thus, it's not enough to say "I'm saved!" and expect a one-way ticket to Heaven; rather, it's a commitment to becoming a better person and letting God's light shine through your actions.

Joseph Smith was supposedly a murderer and plan attack on those who exposed his lies. Including burning printing presses of people exposing his lies.

What really happened:

While the church was in Nauvoo, Illinois, a newspaper known as the "Nauvoo Expositor" appeared.

Contrary to popular belief, it wasn't until a series of Supreme Court cases in the early 1900s that it was officially established local and state governments had to adhere to the Bill of Rights as well. Instead, Illinois Common Law in the 1840s said that city councils had the right to silence "nuisance" presses. The Nauvoo City Council ordered Joseph Smith, the acting mayor, to seize the Expositor's printing press and thus silence it. For reasons that have not been adequately explained, however, the official Joseph tasked with seizing the press ended up destroying it, which was beyond the scope of what the law allowed for.

There was only one press, and it was not burned.

The one press that was burned was a press in Missouri hired by the church to print materials, and that was burned by a local mob.

And anyone who accuses Joseph Smith of murder is pretty clearly lying, as he ordered nothing of the sort in his lifetime.

But I am on record saying we don't judge the truth or falsehood of any claims by the character of the one making the claims.

Again, Paul the Apostle said that anyone claiming to be a messenger of Christ needed to preach the gospel with charity or else they were little better than a false teacher.

Why is that so controversial?

 

[Uber Genius]

Because that's not the topic of this thread.

The passage I posted in 1 Corinthians is.



Try "According to something made up by some critic of the church to sell their book."

That's right: even mainline Christianity has had to admit that anti-Mormon literature is often full of lies and half-truths.

Mormon Apologetic Scholarship and Evangelical Neglect



Starting with this one as an example.

The actual theology of the church leans heavily on James 2: if your life does not reflect your faith, then your faith is as good as dead. Thus, it's not enough to say "I'm saved!" and expect a one-way ticket to Heaven; rather, it's a commitment to becoming a better person and letting God's light shine through your actions.



What really happened:

While the church was in Nauvoo, Illinois, a newspaper known as the "Nauvoo Expositor" appeared.

Contrary to popular belief, it wasn't until a series of Supreme Court cases in the early 1900s that it was officially established local and state governments had to adhere to the Bill of Rights as well. Instead, Illinois Common Law in the 1840s said that city councils had the right to silence "nuisance" presses. The Nauvoo City Council ordered Joseph Smith, the acting mayor, to seize the Expositor's printing press and thus silence it. For reasons that have not been adequately explained, however, the official Joseph tasked with seizing the press ended up destroying it, which was beyond the scope of what the law allowed for.

There was only one press, and it was not burned.

The one press that was burned was a press in Missouri hired by the church to print materials, and that was burned by a local mob.

And anyone who accuses Joseph Smith of murder is pretty clearly lying, as he ordered nothing of the sort in his lifetime.



Again, Paul the Apostle said that anyone claiming to be a messenger of Christ needed to preach the gospel with charity or else they were little better than a false teacher.

Why is that so controversial?

The pastor is called to identify false doctrine! 1 John 4 or are you planning on getting rid of 1 John?

What is true is the first question!

How we correct error lovingly is the second.

Joseph Smith claimed, "All denominations are false!"

I listed his teachings that oppose every core teaching of Christianity!

Mormonism seeks to present "Another gospel!"

Your pastor was fulfilling 1 Cor. 13 by warning his members about false doctrine by Mormons.

Christianity and Mormonism could both be false potentially but they are so radically different that they both can't be true.

It is unloving to allow those in your care to be sheep picked off by wolves!

That is the reference.

But I enjoyed the historical revisionism about Joseph Smith! Apparently the people of the town weren't as educated about the Illinois Common Law as Smith, neither was the sheriff.

This has been a grand tour of an emotional appeal as attempt to hide the truth investigation. If Mormonism is true you should be doing everything in your power to let people trapped in "False denominations (Jooseph Smith's words)," know how to convert to the true Mormon religion and abandon the lie of Christianity and a horribly corrupted Biblical record (Joseph Smith's words).

As to soteriology (salvation) Mormonism contradicts itself:

In the Book of Mormon, for instance, (3 Nephi 12:2; Moroni 8:11) the remission of sins is the accomplishment of baptism:

• 
  “Yea, blessed are they who shall be baptized, for they shall receive a remission of their sin. Behold baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sin.”

But in the Doctrine and Covenants (20:37), the direct opposite is stated:

• 
  “All those who humble themselves and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.”

So stop pretending that Mormonism is Christian. If you know as much as you claim then you know that virtually every core doctrine, theology, christology, soteriology, hamartiology, pneumatology, sanctification, and eschatology, are all different!

Be loving, be like minister P! Tell people the truth.

 

[Jane_Doe]

The pastor is called to identify false doctrine! 1 John 4 or are you planning on getting rid of 1 John?

Identify falsehoods WHILE having charity. And always being truthful when doing so.

A person who addresses another without charity has failed in following Christ.
A person who lies about beliefs (their's or another person's) has likewise failed in follow Christ.

Now obviously we all fail in follow Christ at some point. Hence the need for being honest when we fail, repenting, and turning back to Christ.

What is true is the first question!

How we correct error lovingly is the second.

Joseph Smith claimed, "All denominations are false!"

I listed his teachings that oppose every core teaching of Christianity!

Mormonism seeks to present "Another gospel!"

Your pastor was fulfilling 1 Cor. 13 by warning his members about false doctrine by Mormons.

Christianity and Mormonism could both be false potentially but they are so radically different that they both can't be true.

It is unloving to allow those in your care to be sheep picked off by wolves!

That is the reference.

But I enjoyed the historical revisionism about Joseph Smith! Apparently the people of the town weren't as educated about the Illinois Common Law as Smith, neither was the sheriff.

This has been a grand tour of an emotional appeal as attempt to hide the truth investigation. If Mormonism is true you should be doing everything in your power to let people trapped in "False denominations (Jooseph Smith's words)," know how to convert to the true Mormon religion and abandon the lie of Christianity and a horribly corrupted Biblical record (Joseph Smith's words).

As to soteriology (salvation) Mormonism contradicts itself:

In the Book of Mormon, for instance, (3 Nephi 12:2; Moroni 8:11) the remission of sins is the accomplishment of baptism:

• 
  “Yea, blessed are they who shall be baptized, for they shall receive a remission of their sin. Behold baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sin.”

But in the Doctrine and Covenants (20:37), the direct opposite is stated:

• 
  “All those who humble themselves and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.”

So stop pretending that Mormonism is Christian. If you know as much as you claim then you know that virtually every core doctrine, theology, christology, soteriology, hamartiology, pneumatology, sanctification, and eschatology, are all different!

Be loving, be like minister P! Tell people the truth.

This is a gross misrepresentation of LDS beliefs. Please be truthful in your own words.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

QUOTE="Ironhold, post: 72581941, member: 347134"]I've brought this up several times before, including here on CF, and it's rare for me to get a solid response either way.

So, here it goes.

The incident in question happened about 10 years ago.

A used to be a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, what most people know as the "Mormons". I was one of several people conversing with her on an online forum dedicated to discussing religion.

During the conversation, she name-dropped the author whose works brought her out of the church. This caused a number of people - myself included - to be rather alarmed. The author in question is known by both Mormon and non-Mormon alike to be so agenda-driven that he's more than willing to lie if it achieves his ends. That's right: the author proclaims himself a "Good Christian", yet it takes minimal effort to find outright lies in his works. Basically, he's willing to use the Devil's tactics in God's name.

When we explained this to her, she was alarmed and said that she would take things under consideration.

A week later, she came back. She had investigated the author and his works from both sides, and found that his material was indeed wanting. Based on this, she was going to investigate the LDS faith a second time over.

In response to this, Minister P - yes, he had "Minister" in his user title and had been claiming to be the minister of a Baptist congregation - fired off a scathing open letter to B, A's husband. In the letter, Minister P literally declared that if B did't use "any means necessary" (direct quote) to prevent A from re-joining the LDS faith, then he would be a failure as both a husband and a Christian.

A made one final response a day or two after the letter was posted. As she explained, B was just as furious about the letter as A was. Neither person wanted to be a member of any church that would have Minister P as a minister, and so this incident made their minds up: A and B were, indeed, going to become Mormon.

I've brought this up in an effort to explain how overly-aggressive and overly-hostile ministers can do more harm than good, yet if I'm not being ignored I'm having people try to explain how in their eyes Minister P didn't do anything wrong.

Are Minister P's actions in keeping with what is acceptable in mainline Christianity?

Yes or no?[/QUOTE
.
Hopefully someone already answered in line with all Scripture, but really this is simple.

(except, just noticed, you put in the restriction "what is acceptable in mainline Christianity" ) .....

vs what does Yahweh accept. i.e. what is in line and harmony with Yahweh's Word and Plan and Purpose and Salvation in Jesus....

oy..... so a minute ago it was simple.... men complicate the simple....

Back to the OP question... did you find out what you were seeking for , or not ?

Do you want to know , or do you already know, what (simply) Scripture Says directly to the point of your question, not counting man's complications ?

 

[Uber Genius]

Identify falsehoods WHILE having charity. And always being truthful when doing so.

A person who addresses another without charity has failed in following Christ.
A person who lies about beliefs (their's or another person's) has likewise failed in follow Christ.

Now obviously we all fail in follow Christ at some point. Hence the need for being honest when we fail, repenting, and turning back to Christ.


This is a gross misrepresentation of LDS beliefs. Please be truthful in your own words.

You sound like you are unfamiliar with Joseph Smith!

His character and his message. My gross misrepresentations are quotes! In context. In order to properly assess the truth-claims of Christianity and Mormonism we must know them.

Be specific about where I misrepresented Mormonism! Sweeping generalizations are a rhetorical devise used to obfuscate rather than reveal.

I have worked with Mormons since 1979! I have the read the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and a number of Smith's sermons. Since you didn't do the research I will help those out here understand just how uncharitable Joseph Smith was. As well as how his teaching differ. This is such a large catalogue of differences I will choose only a few. But Joseph Smith was not under any illusion concerning Mormonism and Christianity being the same, he sided with me at every opportunity saying they we're radically different.

 

[Uber Genius]

here is one excerpt of Smith taken from the King Follett sermon that was given at the April conference of the Church in 1844 and was heard by around 20,000 people. The argument that Smith was misquoted is discounted by the fact that it was recorded by four scribes, Willard Richards, Wilford Woodruff, William Clayton, and Thomas Bullock.

The Encyclopedia of Mormonism states that Smith’s two-hour-and-fifteen-minute message “may be one of the Prophet’s greatest sermons because of its doctrinal teachings.”
It is significant that the split in Mormonism did not take place for more than three and a half years. Apparently their ancestors did not disagree with Smith’s theology, as they themselves do today. Nor did they deny that Smith preached the sermon and taught polytheism, as does the Reorganized Church today. But the facts must speak for themselves. Here are the above mentioned quotes:

• 
  I want you all to know God, to be familiar with him. What sort of a being was God in the beginning?
  First, God himself, who sits enthroned in yonder heavens, is a man like unto one of yourselves if you were to see him today, you would see him in all the person, image and very form as a man.
  I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined that God was God from all eternity. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are the simple and first principles of the gospel, to know for a certainty the character of God, that we may converse with him as one man with another, and that God himself; the Father of us all dwelt on an earth the same as Jesus Christ himself did what did Jesus say? (mark it elder Rigdon) Jesus said, as the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power; to do what? Why what the Father did, that answer is obvious. Here then is eternal life, to know the only wise and true God. You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves; to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you—namely, by going from a small degree to another, from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you are able to sit in glory as doth those who sit enthroned in everlasting power.

From Dr. Walter Martin's Book: The Maze of Mormonism

 

[Uber Genius]

Some Mormon quotes about God:

• 
  In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 349).
  2. “God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man ”(Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, 345).
  3. “The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s: the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit ” (Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22).
  4. “Gods exist, and we had better strive to be prepared to be one with them” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 7:238).
  5. “As man is, God once was: as God is, man may become” (Prophet Lorenzo Snow, quoted in Milton R. Hunter, The Gospel Through the Ages, 105–106).
  6. “Each of these Gods, including Jesus Christ and His Father, being in possession of not merely an organized spirit, but a glorious immortal body of flesh and bones ” (Parley P. Pratt, Key to the Science of Theology, ed. 1978, 23).
  7. “And then the Lord said: Let us go down. And they went down at the beginning, and they, that is the Gods, organized and formed the heavens and the earth” (Abraham 4:1).
  8. “Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, and mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point where He now is” (Apostle Orson Hyde, Journal of Discourses, 1:123).
  9. “Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing. He became God—an exalted being—through obedience to the same eternal Gospel truths that we are given opportunity today to obey” (Hunter, op. cit., 104).
  10. “Christ was the God, the Father of all things. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son” (Mosiah 7:27 and Ether 3:14, Book of Mormon).
  11. “When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organized this world. He is MICHAEL, the Archangel, the ANCIENT OF DAYS! about whom holy men have written and spoken—HE
  • 
    is our FATHER and our GOD, and the only God with whom we have to do” (Brigham Young, in the Journal of Discourses, 1:50).
    12. Historically this doctrine of Adam-God was hard for even faithful Mormons to believe. As a result, on June 8, 1873, Brigham Young stated: “How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter-day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and which God revealed to me—namely that Adam is our father and God.
    “ ‘Well,’ says one, ‘Why was Adam called Adam?’ He was the first man on the earth, and its framer and maker. He with the help of his brethren brought it into existence. Then he said, ‘I want my children who are in the spirit world to come and live here. I once dwelt upon an earth something like this, in a mortal state. I was faithful, I received my crown and exaltation’ ”(Deseret News, June 18, 1873, 308).

So Adam was a God according to Brigham Young!

God was first human like us then rose step by step to become immortal!

God had flesh and bones!

Christian God:

The one God is a Spirit who is the personal, eternal, infinite Creator of all that exists. He is the only God and necessary for all other things to exist. He exists eternally as a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. (see Deut. 6:4; Isa. 43:10; 44:6-8; Matt. 28:19; John 4:24; 17:3)

For more see: Comparison Chart -- Mormonism and Christianity - NAMB

 

[Uber Genius]

Joseph Smith boasted that he did more than Jesus to keep a church together.
"God is in the still small voice. In all these affidavits, indictments, it is all of the devil--all corruption. Come on! ye prosecutors! ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet . . . " (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 408-409).

For more documented outrageous quotes see: Interesting Quotes from Joseph Smith, the Founder of Mormonism | CARM.org

 

[Uber Genius]

I'm more than willing to engage in a discussion about Mormonism vs Biblically-based Christian beliefs. But by Smiths own admission he was called by God to reform the church who had fallen away into apostasy. The Christian church didn't believe in polytheism. Or that God was once a human with flesh and bones. Or that we need to work our way to heaven. We can examine these claims and more. But we can't say Joseph Smith engaged the conversation with rationality and generosity! The historical account doesn't bear that out.

 

[Ironhold]

FYI - Martin and CARM both have histories of falsehoods, such that anything from them isn't reliable.

For Martin, this bio from the University of Missouri - Kansas City says it all:
Christian Countercult Movement: W.R. Martin

For CARM, give me a few to find the threads in the main "debate" section where we showed - at length - how badly behind they are on their research and how often they cite material out of context.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Again, Paul the Apostle said that anyone claiming to be a messenger of Christ needed to preach the gospel with charity or else they were little better than a false teacher.

Why is that so controversial?

Because of the world we live in - truth is so uncommon, and the world hates the truth, preferring darkness because their deeds are evil.

 

[Ironhold]

As far as "Adam / God" goes, the link below is a pretty lengthy discussion about it. Basically, this was something Young himself said, there's a disagreement about what he meant, and it's been long since repudiated.

Mormonism and doctrine/Repudiated concepts/Adam-God theory - FairMormon

 

[Ironhold]

Found it -

LDS - Mormons and the Bible

Someone kept posting material from CARM, which only exposed more bad material on the site.

 

[Jane_Doe]

You sound like you are unfamiliar with Joseph Smith!

His character and his message. My gross misrepresentations are quotes! In context. In order to properly assess the truth-claims of Christianity and Mormonism we must know them.

Be specific about where I misrepresented Mormonism! Sweeping generalizations are a rhetorical devise used to obfuscate rather than reveal.

I have worked with Mormons since 1979! I have the read the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and a number of Smith's sermons. Since you didn't do the research I will help those out here understand just how uncharitable Joseph Smith was. As well as how his teaching differ. This is such a large catalogue of differences I will choose only a few. But Joseph Smith was not under any illusion concerning Mormonism and Christianity being the same, he sided with me at every opportunity saying they we're radically different.

Depends on your motivation:

-If you're interested in learning about real LDS beliefs, I will happily clarify on another thread (I don't want to de-rail this one).

-If you just want to show a Mormon how you think you know more about what Mormons believe than a Mormon do, I'll pass on that silliness.

-If you want to quote CARM or Walter Martain without thinking... I have been over their hideous misrepresentations many times and have no desire to repeat the exercise.

 

[Uber Genius]

Depends on your motivation:

-If you're interested in learning about real LDS beliefs, I will happily clarify on another thread (I don't want to de-rail this one).

-If you just want to show a Mormon how you think you know more about what i believe that I do, I'll pass.

-If you want to quote CARM or Walter Martain without thinking... I have been over their hideous misrepresentations many times and have no desire to repeat the exercise.

Why respond with propaganda?

Why claim that doing research and quoting from expert research is “without thinking?”

Did you really expect to poison the wells to experts and scholars?

Then I hope you aren’t wasting money on college where you study experts to gain knowledge in every area of study!

I know what Mormon beliefs are having worked with hundreds of Mormon missionaries for the last 39 years (didn’t you even read my post)?

I have read the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price (didn’t you read my post)?

I quoted from Joseph Smith’s sermons attested to by the Mormon church!

Mormon witnesses, Mormon inspired books, Mormon sermons, Mormon historical accounts are these misrepresentations? Then complain to Salt Lake City not to me. They are your own churches documents!

Propaganda is avoiding rational discussion! You appeal to emotion by suggesting I’m showing you how to think... well if given reasons and evidence for one view being a better explanation of the data than another (known as abductive reasoning) then I’m guilty as charged and so is every historian and scientist and lawyer arguing a case in court!

Deal with the quotes by Joe Smith attested to by LDS leaders! Pick one. The fact that God the father was a man! Or Adam was a
GOD. Or that we can become gods if we make it to the celetrial kingdom.

No more propaganda (including ad hominems, poisoning the wells, appeals to emotion, red herrings (I won’t engage this discussion here), etc.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Why respond with propaganda?

Why claim that doing research and quoting from expert research is “without thinking?”

Did you really expect to poison the wells to experts and scholars?

Then I hope you aren’t wasting money on college where you study experts to gain knowledge in every area of study!

I know what Mormon beliefs are having worked with hundreds of Mormon missionaries for the last 39 years (didn’t you even read my post)?

I have read the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price (didn’t you read my post)?

I quoted from Joseph Smith’s sermons attested to by the Mormon church!

Mormon witnesses, Mormon inspired books, Mormon sermons, Mormon historical accounts are these misrepresentations? Then complain to Salt Lake City not to me. They are your own churches documents!

Propaganda is avoiding rational discussion! You appeal to emotion by suggesting I’m showing you how to think... well if given reasons and evidence for one view being a better explanation of the data than another (known as abductive reasoning) then I’m guilty as charged and so is every historian and scientist and lawyer arguing a case in court!

Deal with the quotes by Joe Smith attested to by LDS leaders! Pick one. The fact that God the father was a man! Or Adam was a
GOD. Or that we can become gods if we make it to the celetrial kingdom.

No more propaganda (including ad hominems, poisoning the wells, appeals to emotion, red herrings (I won’t engage this discussion here), etc.

I have read your posts, everyone of them. You have consecutively quoted propaganda by individuals whom blatantly misrepresent LDS beliefs to their own congregations and these individuals do so unapologetically. This is not "knowledge" of LDS beliefs or demonstration of Christ-like behavior. Quoting from such sources for 39 years is 39 years of misunderstanding.

Now, please address my question as to your motivation:
-If you're interested in learning about real LDS beliefs, I will happily clarify on another thread (I don't want to de-rail this one).
-If you just want to show a Mormon how you think you know more about what Mormons believe than Mormons do, I'll pass on that silliness.
-If you want to continue to quote CARM or Walter Martain or other propaganda, I have been over their hideous misrepresentations many times and have no desire to repeat the exercise.

What is your motivation here?

 

[Ironhold]

Why claim that doing research and quoting from expert research is “without thinking?”

Did you see my links?

Martin's status as an "expert" was called into question in the 1980s due to allegations that he had misrepresented both his academic qualifications (a mortal sin in the world of academia) and his religious ordination status. This was on top of allegations that he'd also misrepresented parts of his personal history. Martin would spend the final years of his life attempting to defend himself, and this may have contributed to the fatal coronary event he suffered.

For CARM, Jane and I - like other members of the LDS faith - have dealt with their works time and time again, and found them wanting. They're poorly-researched at best, and contain false presentations of material at worst. They just don't pass muster once held to the same standard they try to hold others to.

Did you really expect to poison the wells to experts and scholars?

Speaking as a MBA?

In the world of academia, if you take someone's credentials out from underneath them, they're done. It's like wrecking the foundation of a building.

The way academia sees it:

1. Your credentials are what give you the ability to speak with authority, so if your credentials are bogus then your words aren't to be trusted

2. If you're willing to lie about something as critical as your credentials, what else are you lying about?

This is why, as I noted above, Martin went to his grave struggling to defend everything he'd built. In fact, the 1980s and early 1990s was akin to the Marianas Turkey Shoot - Battle of the Philippine Sea - Wikipedia - due to all of the members of the Christian Counter-Cult Movement who went down in flames for false credentials, overt lies about their personal histories, and #metoo allegations.

Then I hope you aren’t wasting money on college where you study experts to gain knowledge in every area of study!

Actually, there *are* issues with various colleges these days. Institutions that are functionally nothing more than diploma mills, institutions where the professor's personal beliefs are taught as fact, institutions where dissenting opinions are silenced under threat of expulsion or even arrest, institutions where activism and unrest are promoted ahead of actual academics, et cetra.

This is a big part of why so many people - particularly young men - are going to trade schools and job certification programs instead: less nonsense and more immediate job openings.

I quoted from Joseph Smith’s sermons attested to by the Mormon church!

Many of those quotes are second-hand from aforementioned critical sites, sites that aren't known for presenting material in context.

Propaganda is avoiding rational discussion! You appeal to emotion by suggesting I’m showing you how to think... well if given reasons and evidence for one view being a better explanation of the data than another (known as abductive reasoning) then I’m guilty as charged and so is every historian and scientist and lawyer arguing a case in court!

Again - did you at least skim my links?

Or Adam was a
GOD.

That's one of the links I gave you: a response to that.

Or that we can become gods if we make it to the celetrial kingdom.

If I really wanted to be strict about academic standards, your posting that instead of "Celestial" would be enough for me to raise a massive, derailing fuss about how much study has actually gone on.

As it is, the whole "gods" bit relies on people not understanding that in LDS theology, there's a significant amount of difference between "G" and "g'. The latter refers to people who have achieved some degree of exaltation, something that we see in both Psalms 82 and John 10. The former is reserved exclusively for Heavenly Father himself.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Did you see my links?

Martin's status as an "expert" was called into question in the 1980s due to allegations that he had misrepresented both his academic qualifications (a mortal sin in the world of academia) and his religious ordination status. This was on top of allegations that he'd also misrepresented parts of his personal history. Martin would spend the final years of his life attempting to defend himself, and this may have contributed to the fatal coronary event he suffered.

For CARM, Jane and I - like other members of the LDS faith - have dealt with their works time and time again, and found them wanting. They're poorly-researched at best, and contain false presentations of material at worst. They just don't pass muster once held to the same standard they try to hold others to.

Aka Martian and CARM are propaganda makers and nothing more. I'm a person who's interested in respectful factual dialogue. Hence I have zero interest in rehashing Martian or CARM's junk again.

 

[Uber Genius]

Did you see my links?

Martin's status as an "expert" was called into question in the 1980s due to allegations that he had misrepresented both his academic qualifications (a mortal sin in the world of academia) and his religious ordination status. This was on top of allegations that he'd also misrepresented parts of his personal history. Martin would spend the final years of his life attempting to defend himself, and this may have contributed to the fatal coronary event he suffered.

For CARM, Jane and I - like other members of the LDS faith - have dealt with their works time and time again, and found them wanting. They're poorly-researched at best, and contain false presentations of material at worst. They just don't pass muster once held to the same standard they try to hold others to.



Speaking as a MBA?

In the world of academia, if you take someone's credentials out from underneath them, they're done. It's like wrecking the foundation of a building.

The way academia sees it:

1. Your credentials are what give you the ability to speak with authority, so if your credentials are bogus then your words aren't to be trusted

2. If you're willing to lie about something as critical as your credentials, what else are you lying about?

This is why, as I noted above, Martin went to his grave struggling to defend everything he'd built. In fact, the 1980s and early 1990s was akin to the Marianas Turkey Shoot - Battle of the Philippine Sea - Wikipedia - due to all of the members of the Christian Counter-Cult Movement who went down in flames for false credentials, overt lies about their personal histories, and #metoo allegations.



Actually, there *are* issues with various colleges these days. Institutions that are functionally nothing more than diploma mills, institutions where the professor's personal beliefs are taught as fact, institutions where dissenting opinions are silenced under threat of expulsion or even arrest, institutions where activism and unrest are promoted ahead of actual academics, et cetra.

This is a big part of why so many people - particularly young men - are going to trade schools and job certification programs instead: less nonsense and more immediate job openings.



Many of those quotes are second-hand from aforementioned critical sites, sites that aren't known for presenting material in context.



Again - did you at least skim my links?



That's one of the links I gave you: a response to that.



If I really wanted to be strict about academic standards, your posting that instead of "Celestial" would be enough for me to raise a massive, derailing fuss about how much study has actually gone on.

As it is, the whole "gods" bit relies on people not understanding that in LDS theology, there's a significant amount of difference between "G" and "g'. The latter refers to people who have achieved some degree of exaltation, something that we see in both Psalms 82 and John 10. The former is reserved exclusively for Heavenly Father himself.

So you are doubling down on propaganda.

I quoted Mormon sources you give a protracted ad hominem about Martin who is still considered by actual Christian scholars to be the gold standard and who reveal the ever changing historical revisionism on LDS! Missing the point that Martin quoted Mormon sources!

THEY ARE LDS SOURCES! No amount of logical fallacies or historic revisionism will help you here!

 

[Uber Genius]

Aka Martian and CARM are propaganda makers and nothing more. I'm a person who's interested in respectful factual dialogue. Hence I have zero interest in rehashing Martian or CARM's junk again.

Again you dodge the fact that they are QUOTING LDS SOURCES!

You are still attempting to get people to not pay attention through poisoning the wells!

Doctrines, joey smith sermons, pearl of great
Price, encyclopedia of Mormonism are sources

Do the research and get
Back to me , don’t rinse and repeat!

Was God a man before he became God? Was Adam a God? If you reject those claims you are not following the teaching of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young respectively.