Second Coming

[ShadowF0x]

You just know.... when he sends all heathens and non-believers to the fire pits of hell.

 

[ALW]

Navigator6,
Who/what are you??? I have read some of your posts and you are most puzzling.

Boanerge, don’t say "can’t" (actually you said can not in post 17) – omnipotence remember

 

[Navigator6]

Navigator6,
Who/what are you??? I have read some of your posts and you are most puzzling.

Sorry about that ALW, if you would let me know what puzzles you I will do my best to put that right.

 

[Havoc]

Navigator6,
Who/what are you??? I have read some of your posts and you are most puzzling.

Boanerge, don’t say "can’t" (actually you said can not in post 17) – omnipotence remember

N6 is the same person as Wayman, before he was banned. If you want to get an idea of his beliefs take a look at Wayman's posts.

N6/Wayman is a follower of "the Way" which he claims is from "The Book of Man, the original Bible". Here is a summary of that book, and it's apparent beliefs

This Book of Man has been written by Robert George Crosbie, known to the followers of The Way as The Son of The Widow. The purpose of writing this book is to offer Mankind the final opportunity to look about them as the foretold time of his ending draws ever closer. This book of Man is the original text of the book which was later corrupted and misinterpreted, and became known as the Bible.

Many will reject this book, and many will fear because of it. The few will not, as it will stir their minds in accordance with the workings of reason which resides within those very minds. That faculty of reason--which is the genetic inheritance bestowed upon them by the original reasoning mind of Adam Edam, who first stood upright, walked upon the Earth and gained reason many thousands of years ago--will be a faithful guide to them, as it was to Adam Edam in his times. It remains to be seen if those who profess reason will be able to look at the less palatable parts of their nature. Will you recognise the lower nature of the beast, which resides within you, even as the birth pangs of the Ending of Days begins to wipe the beast that professes to be humane, but is not, from the very face of the Earth? Will you overcome that nature by reason and follow that which is reasoned?

Beware of the beast that resides within, as it will consume itself as the serpent in the circle, at the Ending of Days by virtue of blind and untenable belief and brazen stupidity. The book is set before you; read it or reject it. The choice is simple. As always in matters of The Way, the choice is yours.

About the Author:
Rober George Crosbie is known to the followers of The Way as the Seventh Sign, the Son of the Widow and the First and the Last. He is the High Commander of the Brotherhood of Nazarenes, who are also known as the Brotherhood of Light. He awaits for the few--the very few--who have mind to reason and understand of his words and of the message within this Book of Man, as the beginning of the ending of the days of Man comes upon us.

Of course I have no problem with those beliefs, although I do not hold to them myself. Wayman/N6s Difficulty is that he's a bit of a Fundie where those beliefs are concerned. Like most religious zealot's he insists that his particular set of beliefs are "absolute truth" and anyone else's are completely wrong. Of course, like other Fundies, he has absolutely no substantive evidence to back up these claims, and requests for evidence are met with circular arguements at best. This combined with his haughty attitude and abuse of other people for daring to believe differently is what led to his being banned as Wayman and his subsequent return as N6.

Hope that helps

 

[Navigator6]

"he has absolutely no substantive evidence to back up these claims,and requests for evidence are met with circular arguements at best."

I asked you previously if you would like me to post some evidence, you declined to answer, so I did not post any. As it happens I have recently posted some in the thread " The Seventh Coming". This is not from the Book of Man although it is still Nazarene material.

 

[Havoc]

actually I said substantive evidence, but who's counting.

You provided your "evidence" before when you were Wayman. Your idea of what constitutes evidence is no different than the average Fundie Christians idea. Which is not surprising.

 

[Navigator6]

actually I said substantive evidence, but who's counting.

You provided your "evidence" before when you were Wayman. Your idea of what constitutes evidence is no different than the average Fundie Christians idea. Which is not surprising.

All anyone can do on a forum like this is to post some print,and I have done this and laid out the evidence that you asked for. You ask specifically for "substantive" evidence, but this impossible for me to proovce that I am not lying over the internet. All the evidence you have asked for exists but it is more in the man than in the print. ALL the evidence I have posted can be substantiated,I know this as I have made a point of checking it out for myself.

As I think I have suggested already ,work out the odds.

 

[ALW]

Havoc,
Thank you for the background information on N6. That was help full.

N6,
What puzzles me most is that I can’t seem to tell if some of your phrases are in jest or if I just have no clue where you are coming from. From Havoc’s post, I see there is a train of thought that I was unaware of and need to look up. First big question set – when was the Book of Man written? and how is it that it is the original text of the Bible (not going to disagree with the corruption part)? and when was Robert George Crosbie around? and how is the Way viewed by other Christian denominations.

Thanks, ALW

 

[Navigator6]

N6What puzzles me most is that I can’t seem to tell if some of your phrases are in jest or if I just have no clue where you are coming from.

You are not alone, I don't think anyone here has a clue where I am coming from, and Havoc is a prime example. As I think I said earlier, if you would let me know what exactly puzzles you I will do my best to explain.

From Havoc’s post, I see there is a train of thought that I was unaware of and need to look up. First big question set – when was the Book of Man written?

The Book Of Man was written over a long period of time, it was started way before Jesus was around, sorry to be vague but I can't give a precise date, I don't think anyone can, but I will make some inquiries.

and how is it that it is the original text of the Bible (not going to disagree with the corruption part)?"

The bible was constructed by removing portions from the Book of Man and adding on other bits as it suited them. The bible is a completly *******ised pocket version of the Book of Man. The Book of Man has seven volumes, each roughly the size of the bible.

and when was Robert George Crosbie around? and how is the Way viewed by other Christian denominations.

Thanks, ALW

Bob Crosbie is around right now, the Way is hated by "other Christian denominations.", as what we have describes Jesus as a VERY different person that the Jesus of the bible. I don't think it would be fair to describe the Way as a Christian denomination, as we have just as much respect for Odin and Buddha as Jesus. I guess this will confuse you even more, but it happens to be the case.

There is a prophecy known as the prophecy of the First to Come, it is not from the Book of Man, but it explains quite a bit. I will post it for you. It is quite long, but it is very compact compared with most of the stuff we have and it explains the basics of the Way.

 

[ALW]

As I think I said earlier, if you would let me know what exactly puzzles you I will do my best to explain.

Lets see - from this thread - your first post was a statement, a question and a challenge all in one. Makes me wonder what kind of person approaches things that way. Not that its a bad thing because I have been known to do that in other areas of life

The Book of Man has seven volumes, each roughly the size of the bible.

How about where it originated from? What group of people?
and
Do Bible historians generally ecknowledge the exsistance of the Book of Man?

the Way is hated by "other Christian denominations.", as what we have describes Jesus as a VERY different person that the Jesus of the bible. I don't think it would be fair to describe the Way as a Christian denomination, as we have just as much respect for Odin and Buddha as Jesus. I guess this will confuse you even more, but it happens to be the case.

Nope, not confused even more. That actually makes sense to me.
Sorry I mistakenly considered the Way a Christian denomination.
Could you pick the top 3 (sorry, I see you like things in 7s) ways of how you see Jesus differently than most Christians?

Oh, and this number 10 thing from your other thread..... most places I have seen the number 10 is reduced down to the number 1. Why not in your case?
I suppose one could have a whole theory on 1+0=1 in a symbolic sense....... Oh, golly, going to be pondering that concept for a while.

 

[Y_phrunts76]

Guys, I don't know much about the theological ins and outs of eschatology (impressed at my word?), but I know this: when Jesus DOES come back, there will be absolutely no mistaking it. I don't know what you reckon to people having dreams and "seeing" things, but I believe I've seen some things about when Jesus comes back, and let's just say that whilst I'm a bit scared, it's gonna be FAB! But I wouldn't want to to be there without being one of His children, accepted, healed, restored and forgiven. Or whatever way round you want to put that.

 

[Navigator6]

Lets see - from this thread - your first post was a statement, a question and a challenge all in one. Makes me wonder what kind of person approaches things that way. Not that its a bad thing because I have been known to do that in other areas of life

Hmmm, I posted the statement from the pope about the "revelation of Christ" as I thought it relevant to the thread. I took it to mean that as far as the pope was concerned, Jesus was not coming back, which flies in the face of christian doctrine.

I posed the question to emphasise the significance of the statement, and to try to get people to think about the implications.

The challenge was to try get people to post their thoughts on the matter, as it has been my experience that when confronted with something that threatens their beliefs they tend to go into denial, it's a bit like "don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up " Nobody took up the challenge as can plainly be seen which is a pitty.

I was aware that the pope had been sent the "Last Prophecy of Jesus" three weeks before his anouncement, and was waiting to see what the response would be, I first heard of his statement on BBC TV, and later on that day on the radio. The Vatican soon after bought ten copies of the book The Seven Signs, The Seven Seals and The Seven Veils, which contains this prophecy.

How about where it originated from? What group of people?

All this originated from a group known amongst other things as the Nazarenes, they go back many thousands of years before the start of christianity, there is no connection with the place now known as Nazareth. *The Nazarenes are also known as the Brotherhood of Light. They are the same people that are responsible for the dead sea scrolls, and are generally refered to nowadays by those not familiar with the Way as the Essenes.

I am a follower of the Way. The Way as it is known, is not really a religion as it has no deities or any system of worship, the cornerstones of the way are Truth, Knowledge, Reason, and Logic. The Nazarenes are the teachers of the Way.

Do Bible historians generally ecknowledge the exsistance of the Book of Man?

When those knowledgeable on biblical matters are confronted with the Book Of Man the response is a deafening silence. I will post a bit from volume one.

Nope, not confused even more. That actually makes sense to me.

Really ?

Sorry I mistakenly considered the Way a Christian denomination.

I don't think you were mistaken, as we have a very high regard for Jesus, which I suppose would make us technically christian, amongst other things. It's just that christianity as we now know is what Jesus would have despised.
"Call you no more assemblies before me or of he who comes after me. We want not your vanity at the coming of the new moons or Sabbaths. I want not your abominations or your iniquities, though your assemblies be solemn. My soul hateth your Sabbaths and your appointed feasts, even that which you shall rise to mark my birth. And why should you do this? You know that I be a Lamb. I am weary of them and of you for it is all a trouble unto me.

Your hands are full of blood and none more than the hands of your masters that you bow before and give honour to. Wash yourselves in the rivers if your rivers be clean, as you cannot be cleansed in foul water.

Though you make many prayers there is none to hear you. Cease to do that which is evil, especially in my name or in the names of the Seven High Lords of The Veil. Cease your evil doings before mine eyes. Turn your course and seek to do instead good things for the Earth that supports you and for your brethren." exerpt from last prophecy of Jesus

Could you pick the top 3 (sorry, I see you like things in 7s) ways of how you see Jesus differently than most Christians?

I see him as a real man, the son of a man, not some weird man/god hybrid, let me just say that i see him as nothing like the wally of the bible who wandered aimlessly around the middle east hallucinating all over the place.

Oh, and this number 10 thing from your other thread..... most places I have seen the number 10 is reduced down to the number 1. Why not in your case?
I suppose one could have a whole theory on 1+0=1 in a symbolic sense....... Oh, golly, going to be pondering that concept for a while.

This......(All numbers are added together until you are left with one number e.g. 22 + 35 = 57 = 5+7 = 12 =1 + 2 = 3 ) is not a part of the prophecy, it is there just to explain the system, I think it could have been worded better as as it is, it only serves to complicate things. I have myself pointed out exactly what you have pointed out to me, but at the end of the day the odds are exactly the same. Don't get hung up on the numbers thing, there is far more convincing evidence than that.

BTW the "Way" gets it's name from the silver fish that the Nazarenes often carried around their necks. The fish is not the symbol of the Way, the symbol of the Way is the pentacle. As I am sure you are aware the first "christians" adopted the fish as their symbol. What you may not be aware of is that the silver fish was actually a primative compas, when dangled on a string it would point magnetic north hence the name "The Way"




*Acts 24:5
"We have found this man to be a troublemaker, stirring up riots among the Jews all over the world. He is a ringleader of the Nazarene sect
(Whole Chapter: Acts 24 In context: Acts 24:4-6)

I think they slipped up when they left this bit in

 

[Navigator6]

BOOK OF MAN

In the beginning there was nothing all was but void. There was darkness all about and eternal emptiness. There was a great noise within the void and the first light was there. There was no man nor beast to see that first great light and no ears to hear the great noises that were made. The earth was made out of that turmoil and she entered her existence as do all things with much noise. Dust that was there in the darkness was brought together with a great force and great heat and so was the earth made. Also was made in the same way the sun the moon and the stars so was the universe formed as one universe. There was great heat and as the heat was cooled there came water upon the face of the new earth. From the waters came life and the earth was made to turn about the sun and so was day and night divided by the turning of it. The light gave force to the living things so that they grew and one thing grew from another and yet did more things and beings form one from the other. And some things died and gave life to other things in that dying, as it was then and shall always be. The sun drew up the waters of the great seas and let them down again as rain and the rains watered the living things so that they coldest live and it was good. The earth rumbled for she was not yet at rest with herself and she bubbled forth her liquids and she did tremble greatly, and so were the mountains born. The earth trembled still and made the mountains yet bigger and so were the valleys made to appear where there was none before this. The tops of the mountains were thrust into the heavens and it was cool and so was that white blanket caused and is still now and shall forever be.

The heat was made to rise and the coldness to sink. And the white snows melted in the heat of the sun and gave cause to rivers within the valleys and fresh water rose from springs within the very rocks. And life was born within all the waters upon the face of the earth. And this was the end of the first day.

And the valleys were green and therein life flourished. Grasses and herbs were born and they cast forth seed as did the trees and some plants and trees bore fruits. Each to it’s own kind. Each seed a seed within itself. And the seeds fell to the good earth and grew and all was good. Then came beasts and greater beasts and some lived and some died and some appeared from other beasts in differing form over a great time. One of these beasts was the beginning of men and the man was called himself Adam Edam. And when Adam Edam stood upright, walked upon the earth and gained reason, so was the beginning of humanity for he had within him good things, unlike other beasts who knew of nothing and had not feeling of mind as did he. And so was the ending of the second day.

Adam and all his kind walked with the other beasts for a great time and they walked in the ways of beasts for a great time. And so did hisreason grow slowly.And the growing of reason was painful slow. Adam saw the lights within the heavens and saw that they moved in mysterious ways and he studied them. He saw that the seas rose and fell according to the movements of the Moon and that the natures of men were charted according the stars, and the Sun, and the moon according as they did show themselves as children of man were born. He learned that the moon controlled many things and he noted that there was twenty and eight days in the cycle of the moon and this was used by him as the measure of a month. And there is thirteen as is the number of many things that be numbered twelve plus one. The number of the days of her cycle that was prophesied to be the number of the last High Lord yet to come. For her cycle is twenty and eight days. And this number of ten would be the final sign of man and a warning that the last of the seven angels walks. for in his time much will be numbered to ten . This would be the greatest number that shall be for it shall bode so much in that time of him that is the last to come before men. for man shall know no reason even then. And his number shall be ten. From this number men learned to count all things and to calculate all things and to give them numbers between the first and the last

Men had learned to put up stores in times of plenty for the days when there would be shortage. Because of this he learned that he must rest and while he rested he could dream and use his mind. And so had leisure to follow his spirit. And man learned that there was much about him and he did use his mind to higher reason. And so was the ending of the third day.

Then did he map the seasons and the months and the weeks and the days and so he divided the days so that he should better understand and keep time. and the days of the weeks were named and the names changed over time . . And all came to pass as many shall only believe and not follow The Way. And all to such men shall be unreason and they shall know of no thing. And so did he give division to all things. He calculated time both for the day and for the season and for all its divisions. And man did he make belief of these divisions, but some did not and they were wise Great fishes were there in the deep in Adams time and great birdsthat came from the deep flew in the air. Adam Edam was well fed as there was plenty. There was all manner of things growing upon the dry land and all manner of beasts roamed the hills and the valleys . The seas were abundant with fish and with all sorts off good uses. There then came cattle and they followed after their own kind and Adam saw this.The creeping things of which some were harmful followed after their own kind and Adam saw this. Adam at this time held dominion over the beasts and as he grew strong within his mind he gained even more power over all that there was. But he gained little wisdom in such matters for this wisdom would profit him little. Adam was no longer partly beast and partly man he became man, but some of him stayed beast and some of man stayed beasts, for they were not able to pass over from that form, nor from whence they came. Those who stayed beast were a great tousle to those who had passed over, for the preyed upon men in their beast like ways. Men became clever and became fruitful and goodly in nature and did no harm to anything . Man was happy. He ate of the green herb and of the fruits of the trees and killed beasts only when he was hungry and in need. but the beast did not follow in his goodly ways for the beast was too strong within many of him and all that he was and forever shall be, is base.

6

And it was good and man entered his sixth day upon the earth. His progress was marked and the days were counted as he progressed into his new form, which was more than his form as it was the measure of his mind that was so measured. After so great a time that it took man to reach his sixth day he forgot his first day. That was the day that he emerged as a beast and low and behold the beast was still within him and he was full of vanity. It was laid down that he would not shake the beast free from him until his tenth day when he shall either live forever or shall die by the his own stupidity which shall offend against so much against the design of the force of the earth. The beast that he is shall kill all men if it not be shaken from him. And so shall be his own ending.

Man then entered his seventh day which was his greatest time of changes and transitions. The ethers that were breathed by men changed and at this time so changed his thinking and he started to learn of higher things. And some learned nothing and some learned much. Women were plentiful by this time as there was now war amongst men and they did kill and even eat each other. Woman cause much trouble as she was highly prized because of the needs of the loins of men. And so did the great shame come upon us. Men plotted and killed for no reason and lost all reason. They saw things as powers that they coldest use over other men, without thought of consequence .

They saw in the stars and in the movements of the moon that which was good but they used it for evil and so was evil born in the minds of men and the shame grew until men were so used to it that it was no more. Men learned of good and of evil and learned he evil best for it suited his purpose better and so did evil become his mark. Some things gave forth poison and men learned of this quickly and did not learn of the medicines and ointments contained therein nearly so well. When men learned the power of the knowledge of medicine then he learned well but for evil purpose. He learned this for the ransom of men. Such was the mind of the beast called man. Because the beast was the stronger part of men in that time, the beast did prevail over thebetter man and did kill him . The beast was strong of body while the better man was troubled by his conscience and had no will to kill for such is the nature of the good. The beasts were afraid of the better men lest they should prevail over them with their knowledge and strength of mind which he knew was a greater strength than the strength of his brutality. Better for all that the better men did rule over the beasts. Better it was so. Alas it was not to be and the seventh day was an day of great wrong and evil and shall last a long time even to the ending of mans days. It may be the cause of the ending of him who stays and walks in the way of unreason. Those who were still beasts hid the knowledge of both good and evil things. Both that that was good and that that was bad, from the better men, so that they might no know of it. But the better men learned in spite of this and kept their peace, for the knew that they would be killed for the prevention of this power, for the force of the brute is all that the brute shall know and in the ending of men it shall kill him yea shall it kill even the most powerful of beasts and the lowliest. The force of good shall be understood by but a few that shall outsmart the beasts with their wisdom and they shall live at the coming of the seventh and after him should they hear him . Strength of force shall be not enough without the strength of knowledge and of reason.

Men named the beasts of the field and the fishes of the sea’s and the fowl’s of the air . He did this so that he might know them better and use them for his own end’s better. Shame was great in men of that time. The beast dug gold from the land and than copper and precious stones which he could not eat and yet valued more than food evenwhen he starved. He knew no better, like the child knows no better . But who shall be father to the beast and teach him for he does not wish to learn and so must stay ignorant as is his choice. And his shame grew even more and shall grow yet even more. Men were still naked at this time and then they entered the eighth day when they were clothed against the cold and against the heat and the thorns. Men learned very slowly and still feared the better men. Men took them wives and killed each other for the love and for the lust of these wives. Women knew well of men for they are mothers and they used what they knew in evil ways. Thus was woman cursed by her own evils as men were cursed also by theirs. And women became harlots in all matters and there shall be no longer good in them lest they learn of better.

(the first day of man was when he first emerged form the water.

the second day was when he stood upright.

The third day was when he gained reason

The fourth day was when he learned the knowledge of good and of evil

The fifth day was when he learned by his reason to use tools

The sixth day he learned to measure time and to calculate.

The seventh day was his day of greatest change so far and used goodness and knowledge to evil purpose.

The eighth day was when he learned about mechanical things.

The ninth day he learned about his fellow man and how to manipulate this knowledge.

 

[Navigator6]

The tenth day is his final testing which he shall perchance fail. And so shall it be his end. He shall not see the greatness of ten for it shall hold the warning and the blessing of the first and the last of seven that shall come before men as the ending of his days draws nigh.

And in time men and women learned to love one another and not just be a use to one another for they learned that they were in need of each other in order that they should live and that their children might live. And both men and women loved their children. The beasts that called themselves men did not follow in this manner for all to them was power even to the distraction and harm of their own children. And still men learned not and slithered in the ways of the serpent and upon their bellies did they stalk their fellows. They neither stood upright , nor did they show themselves . Such was their new found cunning, which did no good to any. Women ate of the fruits that mengave to them but they ate not of the wisdom of the better men for it held no value to their bellies and less to their averices. Men learned to fashion gold into trinkets and so were women bought with such trifles and they became more valuable than the life that they had or the lives of their children. And such were women and so shall they be for they learn not. There is none to teach them of better. So did woman tempt men and demand ransom from him from the weakness of his desires.

About this time there was seen a sign in the skies which troubled many as it was such sign as

had been seen before and men had knowledge of it. This sign showed difference and none of the wise ones were knowing of it. They knew of the sign of the veil but this difference they knew not of and were much feared by it. They calculatedand followed the sign and a child was born according to the calculations and he was behind his veil and it was great, for none had seen or had knowledge of this as it was different to that sign of the veil which they knew of. The child was a boy child and was so anointed for he was not as other kings were . He was greater and showed his greatness. They named him judge amongst his names and the child grew to manhood and he was strange to them and his ways were strange. Men listen and were in awe of that which he said and that which he did for his wisdom was great and much sought after. The eyes of men were opened by him and the eyes of women were opened by him and it was good. He showed to them their evils and their weaknesses and tough them goodness. Some still followed that which was good to their eyes and to their senses and listened to him not. Many scorned and did endeavour to do him harm. But still they feared him nonetheless. They tried to hide themselves from him and from his eyes and from his presence. But it was to no avail for they knew that there was no escape from his judgements. Wherever they went they heard the voice of him in their gardens and secret places. Still they tried to escape from his voice and his will. But his voice still reached through the trees and over the rivers and it cleaved the darkness like a knife, and there was no escape from him anywhere. One day his voice was herd saying "Where art thou? Come to me and show yourselves to me so that we mayest speak together". At some time they relented and said. "We have herd your voice O Lord and we are afraid". He asked of them, "Who told you to be afraid? Have you done those things that I have commanded you not to do?" and so man laid blame upon woman and woman laid blame upon man and they were equal in this thing. .And the High Lord asked of this woman "What have you done?. and she answered saying that the man had tempted her with trinkets and with promises and she succumbed to him. And he asked of the man "What have you done?" And the man said that the woman had beguiled him with singing and swaying and he did Secom. And he asked them did they have any love for one another and they both said "No". and he asked of them could they love one another and they said "No" and he told them to go away from him and from this place for they were vile because they fornicated with notloveand that children mayest beborn of this fornication and none had such a right as to take pleasure and do harm to a child especially on the not yet born. Such was a grave evil and there is no justification in it, as there was no love and much enmity between them. And another man spoke and said "Lord I too was tempted by this woman". and the other woman said "Lord I to was tempted and I secumed". And the Lord said doest though love one another and they answered "Yes" and he said to them "Go in peace and in love and let there be contentment between you and his seed for all time, for such is the way of goodness between man and woman. and to the man he said "Take you more wives that thou loveth and that have love for you for you are a good man so therefore multiply thyself so that the earth be replenished by thy good seed. The High Lord then said to them all "From dust thou commest and to dust shall you return . Man’s body is made of dust and his spirit of greater things, answer not your bodies unless you spirit is content in the answering. Then the High Lord said. "Man has this day learned and by his learning shall become like onto us who cast their veil’s before him" they shall know of good and of that which is evil and shall do evil no more for each day of your lives you shall take a time and improve your thinking and you shalllearn even more until you are clean of all darkness and shall bathe in the pure light.

Then he said "Put forth your hands so that I mayest count those who shall live in goodness and shall so live forever and some put forth their hands in openness and some put forth their hands with cunning and some declined saying " Who is this man that he should so speak onto us?" And they drove him away and bid him not to return for his lifes sake. And he said onto them upon his going. "You learn not, so shall you reap the worms of the soil" and he went. He bore the marks of their swords and their whips as he went and none spoke for him and none offered help to him and so was he banished from their lands and their gardens and their homes and he was all alone in the wilderness that surrounded him. But he was content, for he knew wherefore the wilderness really was and even though he lived within it . It was not with him. Nor was there wilderness in the barren places wherein he wandered. The High Lord cursed the people saying that they should from this time onward be split in two and the sons of one should till the earth and the sons of the other half should be but lowly herdsmen.

And by the sweat of their brows and the pain of their bodies should they eat, and only by this hard labour should they eat.

It came to pass that a son of the earth sought out the High Lord again and brought as an offering some of the fruitsof the land that he tilled. And his brother brought an offering of a lamb before the High Lord. The fruit of the earth was accepted gladly by the High Lord as was the offering of the lamb also accepted gladly, for he had little and little gladdened his heart. Alas this did not please the tiller of the soil as he thought that his offering should be favoured above that of his brother. The High Lord seeing that his countenance had fallen and he was sad, asked him why for . The tiller of the soil answered not as he was much vexed and showed shame. And The High Lord said to him "If a man has done well shall you not accept that you who have done similar has also done well. And should you have done well, then should you not accept that your brother has done well also. If you do not see this, then the wrong if there be any wrong, layeth at your door and not at the door of your brother. Is it perchance that you seek to be above him and fear that he mayest be above you and you shall not rule over him. And the tiller of the land talked to his brother as they journeyed home and he spoke badly to him. And it then came to pass that he did murder his brother in a jellous rage that was of his own making. The High Lord heard of this and came upon him in his field and asked him where was his brother. And he said that he knew not. "Am I the keeper of my brothers place. And the High Lord pressed him and asked him, "What have you done my son? Your brother cries to me from the earth wherest you buried him. You are now cursed from the very earth that has opened her mouth and received the blood of your brother from your very hand. In future when you till the earth it shall not yield onto youand when you sow it shall not give forth onto you. You shall be known of what you have done from the envy of your mind that was not born of reason nor of justice. You shall be cursed and your name shall be spat upon for all time for you are the vilest of the vile and I turn my face from you .

And he was called Cain and his brother was called Able. The man begged saying that he could not stand the punishment . The High lord answered saying "Today you have driven thy brother from this life and I shall drive you also from the pure life and you shall know no peace. And I shall turn my face from you asshall all good men. And it shall come to pass that some will find you, and knowing of what you have done they shall slay you. And Cain begged the High Lord that he should not die in this manner. And the High Lord said "Whosoever shall slay this man shall suffer seven times his slaying " and he was sorry for the man and put a mark upon his forehead so that none would slay him. The High Lord then sent him away from his presence to dwell in a far off land . Then Cain the tiller of the fields fathered a son who he named Enoch and amongst Enoch’s grandchildren Murdug who was also known as Enoch. and more were keepers of cattle who lived in tents and were the children of another tribe and some were men who forged iron and some were men of brass. And on of them called Lamech did kill a man to his own wounding and said if he who was a tiller of the soil was so ****** then surely I am ****** seven times and seven times more. And his grandfather who was a great age sired another child from his wife who was brought to him by Dan the High lord and he did call him Seth, for he said that the High Lord has appointed him another son and another seed to replace the son who was an herdsman and named Able who was murdered by his brother. And to Seth was also born a son Enos and men saw what was done and called upon the name of the high Lord so that they may also be so blessed. The High Lord was great in years, he had many wives and had sired many children. And he did prophesy to the coming of others over thousands of years that would be as he was. He did prophesy a warning to all men and bade them to reason. And then he did die. And so was born the tribe of Dan and they did spread over the earth and suffer much for they were and always would be feared until the coming of the seventh and then all would be well with them.

 

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At about this time the second High Lord did come to walk among men and he was named Woden and again he did suffer greatly at the hand of men for they did not want to hear of his reason and preferred to be believers and to know only that which did them profit as is the profit of the beasts. And his people were wild and warlike people who used not their minds and they did rise up priests and these priests subdued all knowledge from among the people and thy did preach lies about false gods. and the Priests grew rich as would be the way for an long time. and so did they live. and Odin was a wise man even though he was a great warrior so also was he a great King as was his right by way of his Caul for even at that time men knew of the meanings of the HighCaul and Kings by might at that time did well to take a care in the matter for people feared it and knew well of the consequences of it. and Odin became a thorn in the side of both the Kings and the priests of false god’s at that time and they did seek to kill him. He did war with the priests to retake knowledge from them that they did hide from the people and in those wars he did loose an eye among his wounds. and they did hang him form a tree nailed with iron nails and he did hang for nine days upon a tree. But he did not die for such was the might of him. and during his suffering he did see strange markings in his mind and so did he learn the knowledge of divination from these markings. and the more that the priests and the Kings who they were in league with did cause him pain the more he did learn and then he did come down from the tree and did heal him his wounds and so did he prevail. Upon coming down from the tree he did lead to understand the true strength of knowledge and he did reason that it must be protected . He did call his loyalest followers who bore upon birth a Caul and he did make them swear an oath and so was the brotherhood of the Nazarenes formed. And he did devide it into parts so that it would be more difficult to conquer. and all knowledge was divided amongst the divisions and then he did send them to far off places one from the other instructing that they should collect Brethren among Caulbearers and so should the knowledge be passed on, from one to another when ever death approached for the protection of the knowledge and of them. And so was it done. and he did begat a son whose name was Thor and his chief wife was named Fria and his other wives were all of The Way as was his chief wife and so did they live by reason. and it came to pass when they all did die, after a goodly time the priesthood who did try to kill Odin named him a god so that the people who had heard of him would follow them for his glory and so would they take control of the people for the kings by might away from Odin and the caulbearers, such was their cleverness. and so was Odin again brought low by them after he and his children were dead and could give themselves no defence and so that none could give objection for they only believed and did not know of except that which they were told by the priests.And so didst start the book of the generations of The Highest Lord and his generations shall live from henceforth till the coming of the seventh angel of his kind and he shall be numbered ten. When the son of Adam Edam was one hundred and thirty years old he begat a son and he called him Seth. The sons of he lived for another nine hundred years and begat many sons and many daughters and the tribe then was rent asunder and all went in different way Seth lived one hundred and five years and his tribe lived for eight hundred years and so did he begat more sons and daughters Seth begat enos and this tribe lasted for eight hundred and fifteen years.

Enos begat Canaan and his tribe lives for eight hundred and forty years and their numbers was three

Cannen begat mahealeel and his tribe lasted for eight hundred and forty years. All the tribes numbered twelve and the tribe of Dan was the thirteenth tribe and shall live forever till the ending of men upon the earth. Enoch was begotten by Jared and was sorely slain and the lands of the kings who did him slaughter were laid to waste and were full of salt. Enoch was born behind the veil of an High lord and all did seek to kill his mother for his coming was sorely feared by all that knew of it. Even his sons did they sorely kill and their tribe was cursed for this till all time. Enoch was named three times as was the way of the high lords. and much was said of him that was true and much was said that was untrue. All that was left of him was a golden chariot that was buried by those who held faith with him and were Nazarenes so that the High lord that would bring reason to the minds of men might sell it’s gold for his needs in the Purpose. He was a great man and was laid waste by the beasts of his time who called themselves men.

It came to pass that men filled the earth with their numbers and both sons and daughters were born unto them. the sons of the High lords looked upon the daughters of the earth and saw that they were fair.. they took them to wives and saw not the iniquities of their bone that was within them and so did the sons of The high lords fall into evil which they brought into their blood. There were in those days great men who were born behind the veil and their spirits were greater still but they were only flesh and did die. nonetheless the daughters of men came onto them and they did bare children onto them and these children shall inherit the earth and all that their is. the Caulbearers became men of renown and the women who bore the caul were cleaved to the men who bore the caul and thechildren were great. alas the wickedness of man was greater and they were many put to death. the every imagination of men was evil continually. Men knew only evil and thought it to be great for it became all that they knew. the high Lords were greatly grieved and they repented that some were the grandsons and the sons of caulbearers who should know of better. Their blood was tainted by the women who were daughters of lesser men and it was all evil in that time. The High lords did plot to reduce the numbers of men that were not good men and reduce the daughters of men who were not good men. and they brought about pestulences upon the earth and they then repented at the coming of another Lord of the veil and his name was Noah. And Noah said that this too was evil and thus did it cease and men were left to their fates and to their miseries. And Noah gathered unto him goodly men and they were of a kindred spirit and they took with them all manner of beasts and departed from the world of lesser men. The sons of Noah herd not their father and were full of wickedness . The bad blood had corrupted the generation of Noah’s father and the generations of his wives and so did it pass on into his children and did much destruction to that which was good and without evil. And evil was no more. Then Noah didst speak the prophesy of the High Lords saying, that all flesh would so become corrupt and the earth would be full of violence because of them and that men would destroy even the earth and all would die upon the earth. At the coming of the seventh High lord in man’s tenth year. This High Lord would take a great ship and would choose his people. Many will come but there shall be few that are worthy. And he and his people would go to a foreign land and there depart from men and wouldst let men die as they shall design themselves. And those who he would take with him would live in the perfection of generations and would live forever upon the earth and beyond the earth.

The ships he shall so choose shall reach to the skies and shall be of great speed. There shall be windows set all along and men shall look down upon the earth and upon the seas and shall wonder and shall they also fear for it shall all be strange to them. They shall dwell in seven places upon the earth and shall build them their houses of stone and of the finest wood and shall grow gardens and shall herd cattle and sheep and goats . They shall grow all manner of things and shall all be well with them.. The force of the earth shall bring great floods of waters upon the land and the waters shall kill and shall destroy all that are evil. there shall be great fires that shall burn and destroy all that is before them and the great winds shall drive them forward to the cities of men. All will be poison and there shall be great stupidities and men shall know no reason in that time as in all times. With the seventh to come will all men establish that covenant with him and with the force of the earth, both male and female. And heshall take his wives and his sons and they shall bend to perfection or even they shall die and there shall no more be men upon the face of the earth or above the earth nor below the earth . All that men have built shall be brought low. He said again the prophesy so that all men could hear, and there was none to listen except a few and they carried on in this matter so that the generations yet to come mayest listen and so not die and Noah was no longer alone.

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Behold there shall be wars that shall kill men to the last few that shall remain. Great will be the shaking of the earth and great shall the fires be thereof. The eathers shall blow hither and tither upon the whims of the wind and it shall kill all those who shall escape the great fires. It shall destroy all flesh that breaths and herbs and trees and all that crawls or swims upon the face of the earth.. Then there shall come the seventh angel and should men establish his covenant with him then shall those few and their blood be spared, and he shall choose those of the covenant and those who shall not be of the covenant. Those who he shall choose shall enter into the lands of Zion and with him and with them, their sons, their daughters and their wives. And some shall abandon their wives in this thing and not come onto the High Lord and some shall abandon their husbands in this thing and shall not come onto the High Lord. And he shall take then one by one together with or without their children, for even their children mayest be vile and be unfit to the purpose. And men shall cry out against him for in those time they shall stand in horror that he should cast them out especially the children . They shall want that they shall keep the families together and shall not understand that they enter a new family which is the family of The Way and only those of good mind may enter. He knows that evil is within the blood even the blood of the little children. There is none innocent of his beginnings.

The High Lord is so instructed to take into the new paradise with him and with his people all the rarest of beasts and birds so that they too may multiply and replenish the earth , which shall stand poison for one thousand years He shall keep them alive and shall have men who shall know of them and be good husbandmen onto these creatures. He is commanded to take all the seeds of the good food that all his people shall know of so that they may eat well and such fruits and herbs and all living plants shall not be lost. He shall take even the flowers for within them is goodness and medicines and so shall all be saved for the generations. The High lord is commanded to build houses to shelter the generations and to make machines so that the people shall not loose the knowledge of them

 

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For there shall be needed as the people grow strong they shall look to the heavens for another paradise for this sun that you knowest shall die as all things die and shall give forth no more its light nor it’s goodness. For so it is designed. Of beasts and of men shall you take few males but enough to fight and sire the new generation who shall grown within the Way and be not defiled by evil influences. The females that shall be suited because of their habits shall he take seven to one male. And they shall bring forth male young and it will be plenty. The High Lord shall go forth and shall seek the new Zion and shall bring his people to it, at his appointed time . First shall he suffer great fear within his mind. He shall fear that none shall be true to his purpose for base excuse. He shall fear that he shall not find enough good men and enough good women to fulfil this task. Fear him no fear for it shall be done or he shall die and he shall welcome his death for it should be a release form all his labours and all his pain. Should he die then all men shall suffer the vengeance of the force of the earth and they shall also shall die. This thing shall this High Lord fear most. He shall fear that he is great with age, but shall he be of mind that many men have sired children over two hundred years of their age. He shall not live but for a short time but it will be enough and more than enough for his suffering. Pity all men this lamb for there was no choice given onto him. Lesser men would talk in condemnation but such men could not tie his shoes nor are they fit even to lead his donkey. So shall he be commanded to put an end to his life, when it shall no longer serve a dead purpose.

Six hundred years shall men wait in the seven nations before they shall venture too far, for fear of the poisons that here shall be upon the land and the waters. They shall see the grass grow, but men are not grass. They shall see the beasts multiply and when they multiply without deformity then shall men venture out with care. Men shall have knowledge of that which the poisons shall cause and so shall see and shall avoid harm. So long shall the ethers prevail that young men shall grow restless that they may see the rest of the world and old men shall also be foolish in this thing. Advise them and let them do as they wish for when they be dead then there shall be more for those who are not wise and those who are wise shall not venture until the time is right. When it is safe and menventure forth there shall be little sign of the works of men upon the earth and no sign of men shall there be seen. Great winds shall pass over the earth and great rains and terrible and burning heat . But it shall pass and the earth shall rebuild herself and shall become as it once was and all shall be well with man . It shall be all well with him for as long as he forgets not The Way and follows faithfully the laws of The Way and the judgements of The Way. Should men waver, then another ending of days shall come onto him and this time he shall surely perish and shall be no more for no more shall the seven angels be for seven chances is more than men deserve . Should they not learn then better that they be dead because all that have gone before The seventh and the seventh shall be laid waste. Cursed shall man be should this transpire.

Beware you of evil as it shall be within you all, for the beast waits within you and shall sometime howl and some shall answer his low nature. Beware you of them though they know not what the do it shall still kill you and shall kill them. Some shall say that they know better and some shall think that they know better. But only the High Lord and his blood shall really know. So hark you well onto them for thy lifes sake.

After you shall land within the new paradise, you shall struggle for one hundred and fifty days. On your tenth year shall you know peace and all shall be well. You shall know seed time, and harvest time, you shall know winter and summer. You shall have mighty hunters that shall be with the High Lord. They shall be both hunters of beasts and hunters of men. They shall they be as was Nimrod before the Lord of his time.

In those past times when there was only one race and one language amongst men . Men did build houses from stone and did make brick from soil that was as slime and did dry to be hardened as stone. And they used clay as mortar which they made like slime with pure water. and they did plaster with the same mortar and the wind and the rains did not come into the houses. Men then built cities and did prosper within them .Some men scattered abroad to empty places where none had gone before. And after an goodly time they started to forget the correct way to speak their language and they didst then speak in differing language as is the nature of men. And then as time went by, they went further and further from the true language and were then lost to the original tongue. This was the biggest division that had come to men since the beginning, for they now knew each other not and became fearedone of the other. They became strangers to each other. They journeyed from place to place and made them boats and learned to sail the seas and found more lands that were empty and so it was that man populated the four corners of the earth and it was good, but they were forgotten by those left behind generation upon generation and they became further removed one from the other. So far were they removed that they were no longer kin one to the other. Then there was changes in men over thousands of year and over generations and even the colour of their skin was changed by the heat and by the cold of the lands that they had settled. And so were the different races seen upon the earth. As time passed on men hated each other for their differences and forgot the origins of all men which was the same and none were different. Men then forgot the Covenant that was made with the high lord Dan and didst make covenant with strange gods that were but falsehoods for they did not exist. and men did kill men at the bequest of the priests of these God and brought shame upon the High lords and upon themselves yet did the High lords still cast forth their veils as fishers cast their nets so that they might save man form his own destruction’s. The second to come who was named Odin Amongst his names. And had only one eye made him covenant in his time and bade men that when they should see the greatbow in the skies then they should remember their covenant with the High lords and with the force of the earth. But all men forgot. And his brotherhood were gathered by him and they were called Nazaeereans and were the keepers of knowledge both of good and of evil for in truth there is no knowledge that is evil only the men who use it evilly. The High lord saw that knowledge was powerful and that there were men of beastly lowness who would use it against their fellow men for their own profits. men did try to destroy truths and replace them with falsehoods again for their own profit. So Odin did charge his fellow Caulbearers that they should protect knowledge and keep it safe so that it should not be lost even to the price of their own lives or even the lives of their favourite children. And the did swear and it was so. Men came to try to kill Odin and they crucified him for nine days and in that time he did gain wisdom from his pain as do many men, for pain sharpens the mind and thus the senses that are below the mind. they left him to die and he had a vision and it was a vision that gave him great knowledge which he should keep secret form all but the brotherhood and he did keep it and he didst die in the fullness of time and he was them worshiped as a God by the misunderstanding of some men and the design of others. His son too was exalted and his wife Fria was she also exalted. Odin did not have nay hand in this for in it his reality of which he was proud was trampled under to feet of men that are but beasts. he was greater than any man can know as are all those born behind the veil and those of the Higher sign shall men understand even less for they are even greater in their minds and men again missed this opportunity to save themselves and to be better men. They as they always do did prefer to cause The High lord pain and deny his truth. Men had learned to believe that which suited them and turned their backs upon reason and the certainty of knowledge. and thus was man still further ******.

there was a High lord born in the lands of those with almond eyes and he was nearly lost for he was a soldier as was his father and he was named Buddha amongst his names in that tongue. As with all bearers of the veil he was always much troubled by that which he saw and that which he felt. He like all the rest understood nothing of men and could not calculate their ways . Buddha did not know of the veil for the truth of it was not within his land and there was great ignorance of it. This was why none did try to kill his mother before his birth as it is with all caulbearers since the knowledge of the caul and their greatness was known. He abandoned his wife and left his home for he was much troubled and there was none that could guide him. He searched for reason of his mind andthat which he felt for he was sorely confused. He tried to understand that which was born within hem and he could not. Without his knowing a member of the brotherhood of Nazarenes watched him at all time as had it so been since his sign was first seen in the sky. As his sign grew, brothers journeyed to the place that he would be born and they were there. Because they were strangers they were not allowed to approach the child so he was not anointed as a King at that time as he should have been. So they watched and they waited until they saw a safe opportunity. They knew that he would not receive them until his torment was great and his mind would be receptive to reason and the hallowed knowledge. They followed him in his footsteps wherever his feet did tread. One day he was tired and was much disturbed and he sat to rest beneath a tree in it’s shade. One of the brothers who had been following him approached and spoke onto him and asked why was he troubled. He was receptive to them and they were overjoyed. He listened to them and they talked to him for many days without rest of sleep. He did not tire and he gained reason and he gained knowledge of that which he was and he was content with it. They took him with them and so began his education . Again he did go amongs his people and they were much amazed by his sayings and he was full of the light of his knowledge and this did he do, for the rest of his life.

He gained followers and he taught them but alas to no avail for all gainand reason lay twisted and he was ill used and he did die. And he too was exalted as a god and the true greatness of him was again lost. Men were still not ready for that which he had set before them. Again men of greed for power used him and all that he was to create something that was against all that he was; and all that he did, and all that he did say. And by the use of this vileness men did great wrong of him and his Caul And they did believe what gave them power over his people. And they knew not anything except vileness. And before he did die he did prophesy and did say of those High Caulbearers that would follow after him. And men herd his sayings not for all was twisted and his reason was not in their understanding. He did tell of one who would be cast afloat upon a river and who would be saved by a princess. That he would kill and be forced to flee but later save himself with cunning and great risk and bravery but there was non who would hear his prophesy in any way that men should understand. They heard instead as a child hears a story at his fathers knee and it is soon forgot . He prophesied of another who would be sorely used and would feign death to escape it so that he could prepare for the last that was to come. Again the heard him not and all that was of him was dead with him and all that he was not was breathed life into. He was as if risen from the dead of that he was, to an everlasting life of that which he was not. cursed are they who did this thing to this High Lord.

As it was prophesied, there was again seen a sign of the birth of a Caulbearerin the heavens. and so he was born. He was not of the numbers of the High Lords but Lord nonetheless who should be a King. Amongst his name he was called Abraham who was of the hallowed blood . Abraham grew to manhood and he took himself a wife named Sarah and she went with him into the land of the canenites where they did dwell Abraham was urged to get him from the land of Canen and journey to a far off land. He took with him all that he had and his maid servants and his man servants and his unocks and he so departed. he took with him Lot his brothers son and all their substance and they went to Canen and there they built a sustenance for themselves . From there Abraham did move to a mountain to the east and there did he build him his tent. He journeyed still further south as there was now famine in the land and so he went into Egypt. Abraham was afraid for his wife was very fair to look upon and he said to Sarah to say to them if she was asked that she was his sister so that she and he might be spared to live. and it came to pass that when Abraham cam into Egypt the Egyptians saw the woman and she ............

 

[ALW]

Hmmm, I posted the statement from the pope about the "revelation of Christ" as I thought it relevant to the thread. I took it to mean that as far as the pope was concerned, Jesus was not coming back, which flies in the face of christian doctrine………
………The challenge was to try get people to post their thoughts on the matter, as it has been my experience that when confronted with something that threatens their beliefs they tend to go into denial, it's a bit like "don't bother me with the facts, my mind is made up " Nobody took up the challenge as can plainly be seen which is a pitty.

This is not my area of expertise (oh, wait, I don’t have one) but here’s my thoughts – The Pope is saying that Christ’s message through his life is the totality of what people are to know of God in a human state. Christ’s role in the world is complete and has been complete since his time as a living then resurrected person ceased. Followers of Christ can look to Jesus, his life, his teachings, his word but that is all there is from him there is no more. Christ’s life was/is the full message/revelation that Christ has to give. But, I don’t see how the Pope’s statement is related to the second coming. (Granted, I don’t know much about the writings regarding the second coming.) The Pope seems to be addressing the nature of revelation.
Hmm, could also mean that Christ’s revelation is applicable to all.
But either way your quote is a small phrase most likely out of a much larger context that was likely spoken originally in a different language.

All this originated from a group known amongst other things as the Nazarenes, they go back many thousands of years before the start of christianity, there is no connection with the place now known as Nazareth. *The Nazarenes are also known as the Brotherhood of Light. They are the same people that are responsible for the dead sea scrolls, and are generally refered to nowadays by those not familiar with the Way as the Essenes.

do you know the geographic location?

I am a follower of the Way. The Way as it is known, is not really a religion as it has no deities or any system of worship, the cornerstones of the way are Truth, Knowledge, Reason, and Logic. The Nazarenes are the teachers of the Way.

If you don’t consider it a religion, do you consider it a philosophy?

When those knowledgeable on biblical matters are confronted with the Book Of Man the response is a deafening silence. I will post a bit from volume one.

Well, what I read looks to take a bit of time to work through. Maybe they are processing????

I see him as a real man, the son of a man, not some weird man/god hybrid, let me just say that i see him as nothing like the wally of the bible who wandered aimlessly around the middle east hallucinating all over the place.

In that case, what do you see as his significance?

as it is, it only serves to complicate things…… ……Don't get hung up on the numbers thing, there is far more convincing evidence than that.

But, so many things can be proved or disproved by numbers and so many men are comforted by numbers.

I am barely awake today so that’s my watered down thoughts.

 

[Navigator6]

I don’t see how the Pope’s statement is related to the second coming .

THE SUNDAY TIMES: NEWS
MARCH 12 2000

"Even his grip on doctrine is being prised away. One Jesuit theologian has accused him of "rank heresy" after a previously unreported public meeting last month at which the Pope announced that the revelation of Christ was " definitive and complete", a view that ammazed theologians. According to orthodox doctrine, the revelation will not be complete until the second coming of Christ."

do you know the geographic location?

The Nazarenes and the Way are World wide.

If you don’t consider it a religion, do you consider it a philosophy?

I guess it could be described as such. The Way is a dedicated anti religion organisation.

Well, what I read looks to take a bit of time to work through. Maybe they are processing????

Who knows

In that case, what do you see as his significance?

He was the Sixth High Lord of The Veil, and he paved the way for the Seventh.

 

[ALW]

THE SUNDAY TIMES: NEWS
MARCH 12 2000
"Even his grip on doctrine is being prised away. One Jesuit theologian has accused him of "rank heresy" after a previously unreported public meeting last month at which the Pope announced that the revelation of Christ was " definitive and complete", a view that ammazed theologians. According to orthodox doctrine, the revelation will not be complete until the second coming of Christ."

I went and tracked down what I think is the Pope's original speech (I would link here but I seem to get computer yelled at each time I try to paste). To me, what the Pope is saying is not what many of the quotes I found seem to think he is saying.

 

[Navigator6]

I went and tracked down what I think is the Pope's original speech (I would link here but I seem to get computer yelled at each time I try to paste). To me, what the Pope is saying is not what many of the quotes I found seem to think he is saying.

Please can you give me a link, I would be interested to see the original speach myself. One thing puzzles me though, if as you are saying, the pope was saying something altogether different, then why has he been accused of "rank herresy" by the jesuits?