Second chance salvation?

[FineLinen]

Peter mentioned in 1 Peter than Christ preached to the gospel to the dead, which opens the possibility of some, if not all have a chance at postmortem salvation. (Although theologically motivated translations like the NIV try to cover this up)

1 Peter 4:6 (NRSV) For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does

1 Peter 4:6 (NIV) For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.

Dear Rubiks: there is zero chance involved in Abba. After the Master who eats death arose, He went and ministered to the "disobedient" dead from the great flood. The effects of that preaching were dramatic to say the least. In fact many graves yielded up those who had died! He is indeed the resurrection and the life!

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

 

[Der Alte]

begin

<Rubiks>Peter mentioned in 1 Peter than Christ preached to the gospel to the dead, which opens the possibility of some, if not all have a chance at postmortem salvation. (Although theologically motivated translations like the NIV try to cover this up)
1 Peter 4:6 (NRSV) For this is the reason the gospel was proclaimed even to the dead, so that, though they had been judged in the flesh as everyone is judged, they might live in the spirit as God does
1 Peter 4:6 (NIV) For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to human standards in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit.<end>

end

One of my Greek profs was Dr. Roger Omanson, who had been on the NIV translation committee. He often spoke about the struggles the translators went through trying to make the translation as accurate as possible. So before you condemn the NIV translators perhaps you should consider other verses which touch on this subject.

Isaiah 38:18
(18) For the grave cannot praise you, death cannot sing your praise; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
Psalms 6:5
(5) Among the dead no one proclaims your name. Who praises you from the grave?
Psalms 30:9
(9) "What is gained if I am silenced, if I go down to the pit? Will the dust praise you? Will it proclaim your faithfulness?
Ecclesiastes 9:5
(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even their name is forgotten.
Ecclesiastes 9:10
(10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.​

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Rubiks: there is zero chance involved in Abba. After the Master who eats death arose, He went and ministered to the "disobedient" dead from the great flood. The effects of that preaching were dramatic to say the least. In fact many graves yielded up those who had died! He is indeed the resurrection and the life!

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

 

[FineLinen]

Dear Rubiks: It is an interesting fact that the Master who eats death is unlimited in His ministry to the heavens, the earth and the underworld. He leads captivity captive!

https://www.biblestudytools.com/ephesians/4-8-compare.html

"For this reason he says, He went up on high, taking his prisoners with him, and gave freely to men."

http://www.greater-emmanuel.org/jmt/

8. For this reason He (it) is constantly saying,

"Going up (stepping up; ascending) into a height (unto [the] summit)

He led (leads) captive a captive multitude [or: He led "captivity" captive]

He gave (gives) gifts to mankind (or: to/for the men)."

9 Now (but) this "He went up (ascended)," what is it if not (except) that He also descended (stepped down) into the lower parts (the under regions) of the earth (land)?

10 The One stepping down (descending) is Himself also the One stepping (going) up (ascending) far above (back up over) all of the heavens, to the end that He may make the Whole full [or: may fill up everything (the All)].

 

[BlessingPoster23]

Dear Blessing: You have been involved in ministry your whole life. I will not consider your youth and experience holding you back from "cool" and "let's go."

F.L. has been preparing to meet with you on this link you began days ago. Where are you? I trust you will not hold my old age against me: perhaps we can explore avenues that will enhance both of our beings. "Let's go!"

“Though we are incomplete, God loves us completely. Though we are imperfect, He loves us perfectly. Though we may feel lost and without compass, God's love encompasses us completely. ... He loves every one of us, even those who are flawed, rejected, awkward, sorrowful, or broken.” - Dieter F. Uchtdorf-

What?

 

[FineLinen]

What?

OK: I will hold your youth an inexperience against you! Is that the best you can do?

 

[sdowney717]

One of the main scripture passages is 1 Peter 3 where it speaks about Christ preaching to those imprisoned. Those during noahs day. Those who believe in second chance salvation believe this is an example.

More of a proclamation idea there.
Jesus tells people if they do not believe in Him they will die in their sins.
So unbelievers die with their sins unforgiven them. That death Jesus was referring to was their physical death of their bodies. So they go on to hell with unforgiven sins. And then also they go to the second death at the end. So never any life is possible for those who die in their sins, only a continuing death.

The 'spirits in prison' are all disobedient spirits from that time, including the fallen angels and the Nephilim. Fallen angels and Nephilim get no second chance at salvation, neither do human spirits imprisoned in hell.

3:19 proclaimed to the spirits in prison. Four main interpretations of vv. 19, 20 may be mentioned: (a) Christ as preincarnate and preaching through Noah (2 Pet. 2:5) to the people before the Flood (Gen. 6–8). Noah called them to repentance, but they disobeyed and are now imprisoned. The point of Peter’s argument would then be that as God vindicated Noah then, He would vindicate Christians now. (b) Christ’s preaching in the short interval between His death and Resurrection, during a “descent into hell.” It is said that Christ announced His victory to the spirits of Noah’s wicked contemporaries confined in the realm of the dead. (c) A similar idea is that Christ proclaimed His victory to fallen angels, often identified with the “sons of God” of Gen. 6:2, 4 (cf. Job 1:6; 2:1), in their place of confinement. (d) Christ proclaiming His victory to fallen angels after the Resurrection, at the time of His Ascension into heaven. The point of the last three interpretations is that just as Jesus was vindicated, so too Christians will be vindicated.

 

[sdowney717]

Luke 18:29-31 New King James Version (NKJV)
29 So He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, 30 who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life.”

Eternal life is for those who left off following the ways of the world in exchange for the sake of the kingdom of God.


John 12:25
He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

 

[FineLinen]

More of a proclamation idea there.

Dear sdowney: This proclamation "idea" was the proclamation of all proclamations by the Risen Lord of Glory leading captivity captive! The "disobedient" dead from the great flood, and those who came out of their graves were much more than an idea, but the effects of the One who ministers to all dimensions of the heavens, the earth and the underworld! Let's just call Him the Unlimited One!

 

[sdowney717]

Dear sdowney: This proclamation "idea" was the proclamation of all proclamations by the Risen Lord of Glory leading captivity captive! The "disobedient" dead from the great flood, and those who came out of their graves were much more than an idea, but the effects of the One who ministers to all dimensions of the heavens, the earth and the underworld! Let's just call Him the Unlimited One!

I believe Christ led captivity captive, taking them with Him into heaven when He ascended.
That would be the righteous dead of the old covenant, (all prior to the New Covenant time frame).
It is said the just shall live by their faith before the NC started, this has never changed even today.

That hell (sheol, place of the dead) was split into two, Jesus tells us of in the rich man and Lazarus. Those on Lazarus's side were the righteous dead, and on the rich man's side the wicked dead. The great gulf between them divided them, neither group could join the other side. The paradise Jesus told the thief, he would be with Him in Paradise would have been those on Lazarus's side of the gulf. That was where Christ went when He descended into the 'lower parts of the earth' where hell-hades is.
Each side could talk with the other side. So easily could Christ have preached there and all would have heard Him.

The righteous dead of the OC, were waiting for Christ to come and perfect them.
Paradise (Abraham's bosom), a temporary location in hell-hades-sheol, the place of those who had died, spirits have to go somewhere to await the judgement too. When Christ led captivity captive, He brought Paradise and everyone in it, up into heaven.

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”
2 Corinthians 12:1
[ The Vision of Paradise ] It is doubtless not profitable for me to boast. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord:

2 Corinthians 12:4
how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Revelation 2:7 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes I will give to eat from the tree of life, which is in the midst of the Paradise of God.” ’

 

[FineLinen]

I believe Christ led captivity captive, taking them with Him into heaven when He ascended.
That would be the righteous dead of the old covenant, (all prior to the New Covenant time frame).

Dear sdowney: the visitation of the Unlimited Christ was to prisoners of disobedience! There was nothing with a capital N indicating one iota of righteous! Not one single digit!

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists & in Him the all ends..."

 

[ClementofA]

More of a proclamation idea there.
Jesus tells people if they do not believe in Him they will die in their sins.
So unbelievers die with their sins unforgiven them. That death Jesus was referring to was their physical death of their bodies. So they go on to hell with unforgiven sins. And then also they go to the second death at the end. So never any life is possible for those who die in their sins, only a continuing death.

The 'spirits in prison' are all disobedient spirits from that time, including the fallen angels and the Nephilim. Fallen angels and Nephilim get no second chance at salvation, neither do human spirits imprisoned in hell.

3:19 proclaimed to the spirits in prison. Four main interpretations of vv. 19, 20 may be mentioned: (a) Christ as preincarnate and preaching through Noah (2 Pet. 2:5) to the people before the Flood (Gen. 6–8). Noah called them to repentance, but they disobeyed and are now imprisoned. The point of Peter’s argument would then be that as God vindicated Noah then, He would vindicate Christians now. (b) Christ’s preaching in the short interval between His death and Resurrection, during a “descent into hell.” It is said that Christ announced His victory to the spirits of Noah’s wicked contemporaries confined in the realm of the dead. (c) A similar idea is that Christ proclaimed His victory to fallen angels, often identified with the “sons of God” of Gen. 6:2, 4 (cf. Job 1:6; 2:1), in their place of confinement. (d) Christ proclaiming His victory to fallen angels after the Resurrection, at the time of His Ascension into heaven. The point of the last three interpretations is that just as Jesus was vindicated, so too Christians will be vindicated.

Posted by Rose:

"You will note:

1. The preaching of Christ was to the dead of Noah's day.

2. The dead of that day were "disobedient" and perished in the great flood (8 souls were saved)

3. Those who perished (all minus 8) were confined to "prison" aka "spirits in prison".

4. Jesus Christ "preached" to these "disobedient", aka "even the dead", the good news of His triumph.

5. This proclamation occurred after suffering for sin and "being quickened by the Spirit."

6. Net result= judgement "according" to "men in flesh">>>>leading to living "according to God in spirit."

Beyond that I cannot, and will not go. Rose does not believe in chance, first or second or third etc.

I do, however, believe God loses nothing. He is the Source, the Guide, and the Goal of the ta panta. I also believe none of us grasp (including me) the majesty
of our triumphant Lord, aka "the Saviour of all mankind." "

The Scripture under consideration=

"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

Which sometime were disobedient, when once the long suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

For unto this end was the gospel preached even to the dead, that they might be judged indeed according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

http://www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/2927773-why-did-jesus-save-thief-cross-11.html

1 Peter 3:18-20 & 4:6

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/unique_proof_for_universalism.html

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

http://www.hopebeyondhell.net/articles/further-study/eternity/

 

[ClementofA]

So never any life is possible for those who die in their sins, only a continuing death.

You must be born again to enter the kingdom of God (Jn.3:3-8). Since aborted babies were never born again in this life, will they be born again postmortem? Or go to hell:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...tims-of-infanticide-all-go-to-heaven.8037317/

Do you think God will damn forever those who never believed in this life because they never heard? Do you actually think other people's salvation depends on you preaching to them?

If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

 

[FineLinen]

You must be born again to enter the kingdom of God (Jn.3:3-8). Since aborted babies were never born again in this life, will they be born again postmortem? Or go to hell:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...tims-of-infanticide-all-go-to-heaven.8037317/

Do you think God will damn forever those who never believed in this life because they never heard? Do you actually think other people's salvation depends on you preaching to them?

If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

Dear ClementofA : Today and every day, week after week, month after month, 15,000 children under the age of 5 die. They of course have not reached "the age of accountability." Some clowns have an escape clause of the"accountability rule", or what in the game of monopoly is the "get out of jail free card". This is a major problem for orthodoxy who can only embrace one "simple" answer.

I am heading in a few moments down to the shores of my favorite closet to speak to Abba and observe the masses going about their activities. My brother, we belong to a species who are broken & it will take more than crazy glue to fix us!

"The whole of created life shall be delivered/set free/emancipated..."

 

[sdowney717]

You must be born again to enter the kingdom of God (Jn.3:3-8). Since aborted babies were never born again in this life, will they be born again postmortem? Or go to hell:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...tims-of-infanticide-all-go-to-heaven.8037317/

Do you think God will damn forever those who never believed in this life because they never heard? Do you actually think other people's salvation depends on you preaching to them?

If you think Love Omnipotent's love is finite & expires like a carton of milk so He can torture most of His creatures called human beings in fire with immortal worms eating them for all endless trillions X trillions X trillions of eons, forever and ever and ever, you will have to prove it.

No, infants or aborted, or young children do not go to hell.
Jesus said of such is the kingdom of heaven.
And it is God who chooses to make alive whom He will, people are born again according to His will, not the will of the man.
But scripture is clear, not all have faith, not all are born again, not all enter the kingdom of God, some are children of the devil.

People who have never heard will be judged by the gospel of Christ, same as if they had heard, since all have sinned, God can do what He wishes with sinners. Blessed is the man who ?? But see this forgiveness is joined to faith...


16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all

By grace you have been saved and this is NOT OF YOURSELVES being the gift of God.
Only by grace are you saved, if it was not, then no one would have believed and persevered, continuing to believe until the end.


Hebrews 3:13-15 New King James Version (NKJV)
13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion.”

Romans 4

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Abraham Justified Before Circumcision
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

The Promise Granted Through Faith
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.”

 

[FineLinen]

No, infants or aborted, or young children do not go to hell. Jesus said of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Dear sdowney717: the problem is every last member of Adam1 are lost sinners: they may be baby sinners but in need of transformation. Give children an opportunity and they will prove themselves in need of reconciliation.

"For as by one man, the mass of mankind are made sinners>>>>>>>>>

SO by one Man the mass of mankind shall be made righteous"

Adam1= the mass (polus) made sinners

Last Adam= the mass of mankind made righteous.

Adam1= the polus made sinners

Last Adam= the polus made righteous.

 

[Der Alte]

Do babies, children, the mentally challenged, those who live in remote places etc. Do they go to hell?

Romans 4:15
(15) because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law.​

 

[ClementofA]

Do babies, children, the mentally challenged, those who live in remote places etc. Do they go to hell?

Romans 4:15
(15) because the law brings wrath. And where there is no law there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone's account where there is no law.​

It's clear those not born again aren't getting into the kingdom of God (Jn.3:3-8). Were aborted babies born again before they died? No. So they will have to be born again postmortem before they can enter the kingdom of God. That would be postmortem salvation.

Will Love Omnipotent force the aborted to be born again postmortem? Will He give them no choice in the matter? Is He a Calvinist? If dead babies get an automatic entry into heaven, should a loving parent let their child reach the age of accountability & possibly go to hell forever? Or would it be more loving to send the child to heaven?

These questions reveal the absurdity of the view that there is (1) an endless torture chamber awaiting billions of humans & (2) that babies who die as such automatically go there.

 

[ClementofA]

No, infants or aborted, or young children do not go to hell.
Jesus said of such is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 19:14, speaks of "little children", not babies (born or preborn). For more on this:

https://www.christianforums.com/thr...all-go-to-heaven.8037317/page-2#post-72026654

No, infants or aborted, or young children do not go to hell.

Do demon possessed babies and children who die go to heaven with the demons still inside them? Or do they need to be saved after death from these demons before they are allowed into heaven? Do they need to be born again postmortem before they can enter the kingdom (Jn.3:3-8)?

And it is God who chooses to make alive whom He will, people are born again according to His will, not the will of the man.

Only to those who receive Him:

Jn.1:12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--13children born not of blood, nor of the desire or will of man, but born of God

Not those who reject Him:

Mt.23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling!

God wanted to save them, but they were unwilling.

 

[sdowney717]

It's clear those not born again aren't getting into the kingdom of God (Jn.3:3-8). Were aborted babies born again before they died? No. So they will have to be born again postmortem before they can enter the kingdom of God. That would be postmortem salvation.

Will Love Omnipotent force the aborted to be born again postmortem? Will He give them no choice in the matter? Is He a Calvinist? If dead babies get an automatic entry into heaven, should a loving parent let their child reach the age of accountability & possibly go to hell forever? Or would it be more loving to send the child to heaven?

These questions reveal the absurdity of the view that there is (1) an endless torture chamber awaiting billions of humans & (2) that babies who die as such automatically go there.

You know what, you do not understand 'born again'.
People like you think 'born again' is a choice a man makes to believe and afterwards God responds by making them 'born of God'.
Born of God is born anew, born again, to be made alive, not dead in trespasses and sins.
Example is Ephesians 2, where there is no mention of a prior requirement of belief in Christ, just a monergistic decision of God is all that is needed and that is based on His great love for a particular person, not what they do, think or act.

Ephesians 2
And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the [a]course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

BY GRACE YOU ARE SAVED, this is not of YOURSELF being the gift of GOD.
And you don't have the mind of those infants your talking about, God can cause faith to spring up in them same as a rock can praise the Lord.