SDA please explain the failed prediction of Ellen White (SDA Prophet)

[BobRyan]

Who said you would deny that God is infinite? But you would not explain that the Holy Spirit was God to the guy advocating the Holy Spirit was Gabriel?

I might say something like this --

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity—The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, ... would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.—Manuscript 130, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Personality of the Holy Spirit—We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.—Manuscript 66, 1899 (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.). {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God.... {Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”—Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person—The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.—Special Testimonies, Series A, 10:37. (1897). {Ev 617.2}

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers—We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.—Special Testimonies, Series B, 7:51. (1905). {Ev 617.3}

Evil had been accumulating for centuries, and could only be restrained and resisted by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fulness of divine power. Another spirit must be met; for the essence of evil was working in all ways, and the submission of man to this satanic captivity was amazing. 11LtMs, Lt 8, 1896, par. 2

=====================================
"One God" Deut 6:4 in "Three Persons" Matt 28:19 -- no matter how much you may object to it in the statements of Ellen White.

Or is it your claim that people raised as Methodists discovered all the above between 1891 and 1893 ( also in 1896)?

even you don't seem to have the full context on your own 1891 quote vs the 1896 one above. So all you are left with is innuendo and extreme inference. A very very weak argument indeed.

 

[BobRyan]

Too bad it took until 1893 for her to start working that out.

you say that based on your extreme inference poured into your 1891 statement. It looks like your facts are incomplete "at best"

 

[Leaf473]

Some tiny group ... that rejects SDA Fundamental Beliefs do exist.

no wait! you never heard of any Christian denomination where some tiny group within it differs on at least something?

Seriously??

I have the SDA Fundamental Beliefs that include things like the triune Godhead and full acceptance of the the Holy Spirit as "The third Person of the Godhead" - and I actually attend an SDA church, am connected with some of its leadership and have attended a great many SDA churches in my lifetime. And we have a number of well accepted SDA publications where various reasonable views are discussed pro-and-con -- so then "enough to know an oddity when I see it".

of the 22 Million aparently you are admitting you have not met 1 million or even 1000 that deny the trinity. I don't blame you for not claiming to have found such a group.

I was just asking you if you had statistics. I was referring to the number of non-Trinitarian Adventists

 

[Leaf473]

It is possible they could get by with it in some dark corner some place as long as their conference did not suspect them of it. It "could happen" -- but such an oddity does not "define the entire denomination" as we all know.

So then (as is almost always the case in our discussions) -- I am just stating the obvious.

Cool! So should the SDA higher authorities become aware of a pastor who held such beliefs, it sounds like he would be removed, then. What would be the SDA process for doing that?

 

[Leaf473]

I posted the study from 2006, but they must have some statistics on the matter because in 2017 they were now claiming two decades of increases:

____

The Trinity Project :: Andrews University

www.andrews.edu

In the last two decades, there has been a resurgence of Arianism and anti-Trinitarianism, not only in the Seventh-day Adventist Church but also in the wider Christian and Evangelical world.

Well, there we are. There are researchers at Andrews who are aware of a group that is large enough to warrant study.

 

[BobRyan]

Cool! So should the SDA higher authorities become aware of a pastor who held such beliefs, it sounds like he would be removed, then. What would be the SDA process for doing that?

pastors are hired by the local conferences -- the conference pays the Pastors (not the local congregations) and the conference would have the duty to fire the pastor that was determined to reject the fundamenatal beliefs of the denomination. This has been done a number of times in our history.

They are free to find a group inline with their doctrine somewhere else but in general -- they are not paid by this denomination to teach against its doctrines.

 

[Leaf473]

pastors are hired by the local conferences -- the conference pays the Pastors (not the local congregations) and the conference would have the duty to fire the pastor that was determined to reject the fundamenatal beliefs of the denomination. This has been done a number of times in our history.

They are free to find a group inline with their doctrine somewhere else but in general -- they are not paid by this denomination to teach against its doctrines.

How does the conference become aware when a pastor's beliefs are out of line?

 

[tall73]

you say that based on your extreme inference poured into your 1891 statement. It looks like your facts are incomplete "at best"

I said that quoting Adventist scholars who are researches affiliated with the White Estate.

 

[tall73]

I might say something like this --

Yeah Bob, and that is what she did NOT say at that time , or before that time, according to the Ellen White experts. Not just Moon, but also Merlin Burt.

And Moon points out that she did not hold to the view of the Methodists in her early statements. I posted the article, but you ignored it.

But by saying you would say things like Ellen White's later Trinitarian statements, you of course miss the point that she didn't say that then, and only started to say them a couple years later, a piece at a time.

And she had various statements incompatible with Trinitiarianism before that.

Or is it your claim that people raised as Methodists discovered all the above between 1891 and 1893 ( also in 1896)?

It is my claim that the Christian world was well acquainted with the Trinity and the Scriptures, and knew that the Holy Spirit was God long before 1844 for instance.

Ellen White on the other hand in 1891 didn't say that, but said it was not revealed. She only later figured that out.

And that is not just my statement, but the scholarly articles from the Adventist historians.

even you don't seem to have the full context on your own 1891 quote vs the 1896 one above. So all you are left with is innuendo and extreme inference. A very very weak argument indeed.

I linked to the complete context at the outset Bob. You apparently didn't read it enough to realize that she did NOT say all the Trinitarian things you wish she had.

Now, what you have done so far is avoid the entire argument that was presented to you.

I noted that Ellen White moved to a more Trinitarian view later on, but noted that her early statements are incompatible with Trinitarian thought.

Your response? Yeah, but look at all these Trinitarian later statements!

That doesn't address the issue Bob. Her early statements were incompatible with Trinitarian thought.

If she were a regular church member, that would be fine, and commendable that she learned more. But the church claims inspiration for her non-Trinitarian earlier statements.


Anyone reading the conversation will see that you are ignoring the statements of the Adventist historians, and ignoring EGW's early statements posted in the thread that are non-Trinitarian. So feel free to keep avoiding the issue. And people can read the various sources already posted for them.

 

[tall73]

Well, there we are. There are researchers at Andrews who are aware of a group that is large enough to warrant study.

Yes, and notes the movement has been growing for two decades. So they must have some metrics on that.

 

[Sophia7]

I see the problem now. I was searching the North American website. (I thought it looked different, I'm used to seeing the world-wide website.)

In any case, I still haven't found the actual scriptures containing all of the laws from the Old testament that Adventists believe are for today on either website. Maybe a list is there and I haven't found it?

I did find this which has this section which sounds promising "What commandments are in God’s Law"

God’s Law in the Bible and Why It Still Matters

God’s law reflects His character, just, loving, and eternal. The Bible shows how His commandments bring freedom and life.

www.adventist.org

But it lists only the 10.

That's because Adventists generally view any reference to "the law" or "commandments" in Scripture as a reference to "the ten commandments." They ignore most of the rest of the law and the fact that the terms are often not used that way in Scripture. I listed several examples earlier in the thread. I think the closest you will come to a list from Adventists is their unscriptural categorization of the law into moral (ten commandments), ceremonial, civil, and natural. They pick and choose from the commandments outside the ten and place them into the other categories. So, for example, some (not all) of the OT dietary commands are viewed as part of the "natural law." But it's inconsistent and unbiblical, and they add their own extrabiblical commandments.

 

[BobRyan]

How does the conference become aware when a pastor's beliefs are out of line?

the local congregation has contact with their own conference leaders - phone, email , conference office and usually conference leaders are at each local congregation about once or twice per year.

 

[BobRyan]

Well, there we are. There are researchers at Andrews who are aware of a group that is large enough to warrant study.

And they differ with each other on a fine point or two -- as we all know.

 

[BobRyan]

Who said you would deny that God is infinite? But you would not explain that the Holy Spirit was God to the guy advocating the Holy Spirit was Gabriel?

I might say something like this --

The Eternal Dignitaries of the Trinity—The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy, ... would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.—Manuscript 130, 1901. {Ev 616.4}

Personality of the Holy Spirit—We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.—Manuscript 66, 1899 (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.). {Ev 616.5}

The Holy Spirit is a person, for He beareth witness with our spirits that we are the children of God. When this witness is borne, it carries with it its own evidence. At such times we believe and are sure that we are the children of God.... {Ev 616.6}

The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. “For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.”—Manuscript 20, 1906. {Ev 617.1}

The Power of God in the Third Person—The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit.—Special Testimonies, Series A, 10:37. (1897). {Ev 617.2}

In Co-operation With the Three Highest Powers—We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.—Special Testimonies, Series B, 7:51. (1905). {Ev 617.3}

Evil had been accumulating for centuries, and could only be restrained and resisted by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fulness of divine power. Another spirit must be met; for the essence of evil was working in all ways, and the submission of man to this satanic captivity was amazing. 11LtMs, Lt 8, 1896, par. 2

=====================================
"One God" Deut 6:4 in "Three Persons" Matt 28:19 -- no matter how much you may object to it in the statements of Ellen White.

Or is it your claim that people raised as Methodists discovered all the above between 1891 and 1893 ( also in 1896)?

even you don't seem to have the full context on your own 1891 quote vs the 1896 one above. So all you are left with is innuendo and extreme inference. A very very weak argument indeed.

Yeah Bob, and that is what she did NOT say at that time

No doubt context matters and no doubt some conversation was ever had where each of her statements above were not also mentioned.

But by saying you would say things like Ellen White's later Trinitarian statements, you of course miss the point that she didn't say that then

hmm so on that day she did not say what she said on another day.

and with a bit of story telling and extreme inference about someone raised as a methodist you can simply ignore the statements above. Do any of the statements I quote above say "I just found out that..." or "Methodists never knew that..." or ...

Any way you are free to have any story that you wish in that regard - you have free will. I just find your argument very very weak

 

[BobRyan]

If she were a regular church member, that would be fine, and commendable that she learned more. But the church claims inspiration for her non-Trinitarian earlier statements.

She never made non-trinitarian statements and even you don' t have anything but your own extreme inference for this person raised as a Trinitarian in the Methodist church with strong trinitarian statements published by her - that you try to sweep under a rug as if they won't come out until some SDA doctrine believing Adventist shows up.

Even YOU should find it a bit "odd" that you are leaving it to me - to share that info with those that follow your posts.

 

[BobRyan]

That's because Adventists generally view any reference to "the law" or "commandments" in Scripture as a reference to "the ten commandments."

More correctly - as a reference to the Moral Law of God that INCLUDES the ten. (Kinda the same way that Presbyterians view it - apparently, when it comes to INCLUDING the TEN).

As this Presbyterian pastor explains --

 

[Leaf473]

the local congregation has contact with their own conference leaders - phone, email , conference office and usually conference leaders are at each local congregation about once or twice per year.

Can anyone from a local church file a complaint or whatever it is called about a leader with the conference?

Within the United Methodist Church, it's supposed to be taken first to the pastor parish relations committee. Since White was originally a Methodist, did she pattern the SDA organizational structure after the Methodist one?

 

[Leaf473]

And they differ with each other on a fine point or two -- as we all know.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're saying. The researchers disagree with each other on some fine points?

 

[Leaf473]

More correctly - as a reference to the Moral Law of God that INCLUDES the ten. (Kinda the same way that Presbyterians view it - apparently, when it comes to INCLUDING the TEN).

As this Presbyterian pastor explains --

It seems reasonable to me, then, that it would be easy to find those scripture passages that contain all of the laws from the human-designated category of moral laws.

I haven't been able to locate those passages on the official SDA website. Have you been able to find them?

 

[Leaf473]

the local congregation has contact with their own conference leaders - phone, email , conference office and usually conference leaders are at each local congregation about once or twice per year.

Also, how does the conference take action? Is it representatives from within the conference, or does the entire conference vote on the issue of the allegedly out of line pastor? Is there some kind of ecclesiastical court system?

(Input from anyone welcome )