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SDA denomination predicts weakening of first amendment in the future

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by BobRyan, Mar 17, 2021.

  1. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The pope is working on it now. The RRC also changed the primary day of worship from Saturday to Sunday. So, I guess we will have to wait and see, much like the days of Noah.
     
  2. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Is that, at least in part, because this is nothing new, even if it's being promoted as though it is? The SDA publications have been predicting imminent disaster on this same issue for generations now.
     
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  3. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    In my own home state, we have had blue laws for most of my life, until the last decade or two. You couldn't buy alcohol on Sunday and many of the stores were closed on Sundays or had limited hours from noon to 5pm. Even today, on Sunday, stores in my state have limited hours and some don't open at all on Sunday.

    I think what will happen is they will force businesses to close on Sunday, for the common good, for climate rest and people will have to start eating at home after church and shopping in advance of the stores being closed. People will have to make sacrifices "for the good of us all". Sunday rest isn't going to stop the increasing frequency and intensity of the birth pains. Upheaval will continue to get worse.

    Given the recent uptick in calls for Sunday rest (since COVID, especially)... I don't see it going away anytime soon, but coming to a head; legislation.

    Time will tell. We'll know soon enough.
     
  4. Pavel Mosko

    Pavel Mosko Arch-Dude of the Apostolic Supporter

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    I heard about it, but I think this is a tempest in a tea pot. The pope's ability to pass legislation is very negligible. And if you believe he is the False Prophet of the Book of Revelation, then he really needs to step up his game.
     
  5. SabbathBlessings

    SabbathBlessings Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Hence why I stated much like the days of Noah, where no one believed until it was too late.
     
  6. Albion

    Albion Facilitator

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    Sort of like the Second Coming, I presume.

    No, it wasn't imminent as predicted in the 1830s or 40s but God's been working on it ever since, so it's still imminent.
     
  7. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    The false prophet (the beast of the earth;the United States) is the one who assists the beast (of the sea) in causing all to worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark.
     
  8. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Age isn't a number. It's a three lettered word. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    The seal of God is spiritual and placed in the forehead. It has nothing to do with what day you go to church. Also, the mark of the beast is about who is allowed to buy and sell, not about worship.
     
  9. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Age isn't a number. It's a three lettered word. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Neither is Sunday law.
     
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  10. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Age isn't a number. It's a three lettered word. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    The FP is a person not a nation.
     
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  11. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Many Christians think the mark and Seal are actual physical marks, but it is well-established that SDA believe it's a spiritual mark. Thus, we're in agreement on that point.

    Worship the beast -> receive his mark:

    Revelation 14:9
    And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

    Revelation 14:11
    And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Revelation 16:2
    And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

    Revelation 19:20
    And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Revelation 20:4
    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

    Buy and sell is not the mark of the beast, it's persecution by the beast system for not following the worship mandate.

    Neither is Sunday worship.

    Daniel 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

    Both of these prophecies were fulfilled by the RCC.

    Change times and laws:
    • The Sabbath changed to Sunday as a day of worship.
    • The removal of idolatry from the Ten Commandments Chatechism.
    Speak great words against the most high:
    • Numerous quotes of supreme authority over God, Jesus and the Bible, many of which have been posted at length on this forum.
    The 1260 year prophecy:
    • Christian persecution and an estimated fifty million deaths.

    A beast is a kingdom.

    Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

    Revelation 13:5-7 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months [1260 years]. And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    The meaning of the symbol of a beast did not change between Daniel and Revelation. A beast is a kingdom. A kingdom is used to represent a power. In both cases, these are power structures made up of groups of individuals, not just one person. One pope didn't oversee the 1260 years of Christian persecution, therefore it makes no sense to say one person is the beast or the false prophet. That's not to say that individuals won't be held accountable, but these beasts are powers that consist of infrastructure and organization and people behind the scenes who are equally as guilty as the leader, who more often than not is an empty suit.
     
  12. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Age isn't a number. It's a three lettered word. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Yes it is:

    Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
    Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
    Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.


    Not a word about the Sabbath or Sundays or worshiping. Yes, those who take the mark will worship the beast also but the mark is specifically about buying and selling. It's I.D. that says someone can buy or sell things.




    The Antichrist and the Great Tribulation have not happened yet so no, it wasn't fulfilled by the RCC.




    Not all beasts are kingdoms. The false prophet is a person, one person. He will be a ruler of a beast kingdom though.



    A beast has also been used to represent a person or persons (beasts) and that hasn't changed either:

    Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.


    Titus 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.


    2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;


    Jude 1:10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

     
  13. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Spiritual Mark and Seal

    We both agree, the Seal of God is a spiritual mark.

    2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
    Angels are tasked with giving the Seal to the servants of God.

    Revelation 7:2-3 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.​

    Both of the mark and the Seal are given by angels, not men, therefore it can't be an I.D. or anything physical. Note that they receive the mark of the beast, pointing to action of a spiritual nature. God marked Cain so that he wouldn't be killed.

    As for buy and sell, yes, I know the verses well, I just didn't quote them in my post. The mark and the seal are both spiritual marks that show who you worship.

    Worship

    Five verses in Revelation mention worship and the mark of the beast. Since you didn't see it the first time, I'll quote it again.

    Revelation 14:9
    And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

    Revelation 14:11
    And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

    Revelation 16:2
    And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.

    Revelation 19:20
    And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

    Revelation 20:4
    And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.​

    If, for instance, Sunday worship is enforced, the powers that be don't need an I.D. to determine whether you're worshiping on Sunday or not. Church attendance, or lack thereof, will be readily apparent and reported to the authorities, limiting your ability to buy and sell.

    The Beast

    Daniel 7 and Revelation 13 are speaking of the same beast (spiritual Babylon), of the same origin—the first four kingdoms of the earth (Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome).

    Daniel 7:4-8 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it. And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh. After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it. After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

    Daniel 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.

    Revelation 13:2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
    The book of Daniel was sealed until the time of the end, so that Revelation could be understood at the appropriate time (Daniel 12:4-9, Revelation 10:9-10).

    Nothing says we have to agree. I've stated my position and you've stated yours.
     
  14. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Age isn't a number. It's a three lettered word. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Where is it written an angel gives the mark of the beast?
     
  15. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I just quoted that God gave Cain a mark. If both mark and Seal are spiritual, it stands to reason God gives the mark of identification through His angels, as per my previous scriptural quotes. Satan has no power to give a spiritual mark of any kind, otherwise he would've marked the whole population. The mark is a sign of a free will choice and only God knows the heart, therefore, the mark must be received by angels, just as the Seal is received by angels.
     
  16. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Age isn't a number. It's a three lettered word. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    I was referring to the mark of the beast.


    I disagree. Satan has been given permission to do a lot of things. The mark of the beast is given by the FP:

    Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
    Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
    Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

    While this could be a non-literal mark, the context suggests a literal mark of some form. We already have similar things involved in buying and selling things.


    The text says the false prophet gives the mark to people.
     
  17. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    You're free to disagree. I'm okay with that.
     
  18. Freth

    Freth Well-Known Member Supporter

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    I would also point out that the same principle applies to whether you're written in the book of life or not. You are either saved or condemned, by your own free will and where your heart is. Where your heart is will determine your thoughts and actions (the mark or the Seal), true worship or false worship.

    Note the similarities to the Seal and the mark, using the same language.

    Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him [the beast], whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.​

    Does the false prophet (if he were a man) somehow have access to the book of life? No, of course not.

    At any rate, that's my belief and I'm sticking to it. God bless!
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2021
  19. ewq1938

    ewq1938 Age isn't a number. It's a three lettered word. Staff Member Supervisor Supporter

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    Not sure what point that makes since no one thinks he does. The FP is the one who gives people the mark of the beast so he has the power to do that, whether it's a physical or spiritual or symbolic type of mark.

    G5480
    χάραγμα
    charagma
    khar'-ag-mah
    From the same as G5482; a scratch or etching, that is, stamp (as a badge of servitude), or sculptured figure (statue): - graven, mark.
    Total KJV occurrences: 9

    Everything about this words definition is physical. Since he isn't a God, this mark is a man made mark.
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member Supporter

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    [Staff Edit]

    Whether the SDA prediction for America proves to be correct or your prediction proves to be correct - time will tell. Though based on what is going on in France currently - against Islam you might have guessed a ban on some Islamic practices might follow in other countries.
    ]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 18, 2021
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