SDA and the New Jerusalem

[tall73]

It only says that AFTER it tells us that "the rest did NOT come to life until AFTER the 1000 years are completed.. and then informs us that AFTER the 1000 years are completed the nations are once again there.

And that timing is spelled out in the chapter. And it is after the events described with the nations:

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they marched up over the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, but fire came down from heaven and consumed them,
Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

It is not until the nations are burned with fire and Satan thrown in the lake of fire that you have the Great White Throne Judgment and the dead judged.


Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them.
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

And it is not until all of that is past, and the old earth passed away that we see the New Jerusalem come from heaven, though you put that first, with no text to back it up.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

 

[tall73]

well there we have that same "insert types" idea showing up

Yes, because it describes the various types they would eat, king, captain, mighty man, horse, horsemen, all slave and free. But this is in the armies as the text says.

 

[tall73]

It only says that AFTER it tells us that "the rest did NOT come to life until AFTER the 1000 years are completed.. and then informs us that AFTER the 1000 years are completed the nations are once again there.

Exegesis demands that we not skim past these details..

Then you should address all the details in the chapter, which you don't. You re-arrange freely and make your own narrative. The resurrection after the 1k years is said to happen after the nations surround, and Satan is thrown in the lake of fire.

the "rest are killed" as Rev 19 says

The rest of the army.

the earth is "desolate" with "no humans" as Jer 4 says

You will have to address the context of Jeremiah 4. But it is not referenced in Rev. 19-20, and is in fact in context talking about Jerusalem long before this.

the saints are raptured as 1 Thess 4:13-18 says

It does not say they go to heaven.

and all the lost are slain as 2 Thess 1 says.

It refers to their eternal destruction in fire, which does not refer to events before the 1k years.

Now try reading what Revelation 20 says instead of substituting your own timeline.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, because it describes the various types they would eat, king, captain, mighty man, horse, horsemen, all slave and free. But this is in the armies as the text says.

No "just one of various types" or "various types" but rather "all people"

Which is why it adds The REST - were killed which sweeps in any "left over group" one might wish to suppose is not included.

There is no "rest of the army" and there is no "all types of people" phrase in Rev 19. Inserting those qualifiers is eisegesis.

In any case - you have free will and can believe as you wish.

The Bible tells us there is "no human" and nothing but ruined cities during that 1000 years..

=========

a desolate Earth does not have the camp of the saints, the holy city, the wicked alive and ready to surround the camp of the saints...

in fact it has "no human"

Jeremiah 4
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

So all of that has to be put in place after the 1000 years ends

 

[BobRyan]

first clue is that a desolate Earth does not have the camp of the saints, the holy city, the wicked alive and ready to surround the camp of the saints...

So all of that has to be put in place after the 1000 years ends.

Then you should address all the details in the chapter,

I am pointing to the starting condition at the start of the period where 1000 years ends Showing that with no humans on Earth (as Jer 4, Rev 19 etc point out) the only way to get them there is resurrection and the only way to have a resurrection of all the wicked is as Rev 20 shows us - with God here on Earth and that means the Holy City (camp of the saints) here.


Jeremiah 4 "I looked and behold there was no human" only destroyed cities

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

so all the "one of each type" or "some of each type" efforts to downsize Rev 19 does no good if they do not get us to the same Jer 4 condition for Earth at that time - "a desolate Earth" with "no human"

 

[tall73]

Which is why it adds The REST - were killed which sweeps in any "left over group" one might wish to suppose is not included.

In any case - you have free will and can believe as you wish.

Yes, all the people--in the armies, which is then pictured in the next verse. He calls them to the battle, then describes the battle.


Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God,
Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all both free and slave, both small and great.”
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

And then Christ reigns (it doesn't say in heaven), then there are nations at the end of the 1k years.

You can't say you want to look at details and ignore all those.

Then after the nations surround the camp and fire comes down, Satan is thrown in the lake of fire.

THEN the resurrection is described.

Only after all of that the New Heavens and New earth and the New Jerusalem are described. And yet you put the New Jerusalem first, with no text.

 

[tall73]

I am pointing to the starting condition at the start of the period where 1000 years ends Showing that with no humans on Earth (as Jer 4, Rev 19 etc point out)

Revelation 19 does not point that out, but records the army destroyed, and you continually punt on the context of Jeremiah 4, which is not quoted here or referenced, and refers to events long before.

the only way to get them there is resurrection and the only way to have a resurrection of all the wicked is as Rev 20 shows us - with God here on Earth and that means the Holy City (camp of the saints) here.

Bob, you are of course skipping the obvious. Jesus is seen reigning at the beginning of the chapter. He is already here. And so are the nations, which are also seen.

And the Resurrection after the 1k year is described later in the chapter, after the surrounding of the camp.

And the New Jerusalem is not described until after all of that. The current earth has a current Jerusalem where Christ could reign. The text says nothing about the NEW Jerusalem until chapter 21 in the new earth.

So you have re-ordered everything the text says, and inserted things not said.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

There is no misunderstanding of "cleansed". Your statement changes the order from Scripture.


At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth.

Per the fundamental the Holy City descends along with Jesus from heaven to earth. THEN the unrighteous dead are resurrected. Then satan and his angels surround the city. Then the fire comes down and cleanses. In other words, you have the New Jerusalem coming down before the old earth has passed.

That is not the order in Scripture. In Scripture the New Jerusalem comes down when the New Heavens and New earth are there, after the old earth has passed away.

Rev 21:1 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more.
Rev 21:2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Yes your misrepresenting what is written again. As posted earlier, "cleanse" here is used in context of the second resurrection and death of the wicked and removing the wicked from the earth not remaking the earth. Your misrepresenting what is written again sadly. Anyhow I have not time for repetition and misrepresentation.

Take Care

 

[tall73]

You say the earth was desolate, but this is not the case. Satan is put in a prison so that he night not deceive the nations--which are still there. At the end of this he is let out of his prison and goes to deceive the nations--which are still there.

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.


Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

 

[tall73]

Yes your misrepresenting what is written again. As posted earlier, "cleanse" here is used in the the second death and removing the wicked from the earth not remaking the earth. Your misrepresenting what is written again sadly. Anyhow I have not time for repetition and misrepresentation.

Take Care.

The New Jerusalem was not in the old earth to start with, which was the topic of this thread. It is only said to be in the New earth.

Your "cleansing" point is just a distraction.

 

[tall73]

There is no "rest of the army" and there is no "all types of people" phrase in Rev 19. Inserting those qualifiers is eisegesis.

There is a description of an army, two of its members captured and put in the lake of fire, and the rest slain.

And by the way it even describes horses. Horses are not people. But they are part of the army.

 

[tall73]

Part of the reason you claim there are no nations on the earth is that you claim the abyss is the desolate earth, and that satan is there. But again you have changed what the abyss is in the text.

27 The Millennium and the End of Sin
The millennium is the thousand-year reign of Christ with His saints in heaven between the first and second resurrections. During this time the wicked dead will be judged; the earth will be utterly desolate, without living human inhabitants, but occupied by Satan and his angels. At its close Christ with His saints and the Holy City will descend from heaven to earth. The unrighteous dead will then be resurrected, and with Satan and his angels will surround the city; but fire from God will consume them and cleanse the earth. The universe will thus be freed of sin and sinners forever.

Revelation already describes what the abyss is, and it is not a desolate earth.

In chapter 9 the earth is not desolate. The description is given of the pit of the abyss. It has a key. Things go up out of it and then those things impact the earth. The pit of the abyss is not the earth. It is a place of holding. You have to leave the pit to effect those people on the earth.

Rev 9:1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet, and I saw a star fallen from heaven to earth, and he was given the key to the shaft of the bottomless pit.
Rev 9:2 He opened the shaft of the bottomless pit, and from the shaft rose smoke like the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun and the air were darkened with the smoke from the shaft.
Rev 9:3 Then from the smoke came locusts on the earth, and they were given power like the power of scorpions of the earth.
Rev 9:4 They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any green plant or any tree, but only those people who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.

Chapter 20 is consistent with the explanation in 9. The abyss still has a key. satan is thrown into the pit and it is sealed OVER him. Previously things had to go up to come out of the pit to the earth, and now he is thrown in and covered over. There is nothing to suggest the nature of the abyss changed. It being a holding place is consistent, it having a key is consistent, having to go down into it, and come up out of it is consistent.

Rev 20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain.
Rev 20:2 And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.

Now you say that satan is bound to earth so he can't deceive other worlds. But it says satan comes out of his prison to go to four corners of the earth. According to you the four corners of the earth WERE his prison. It is only when he comes out of the prison that he goes to the four corners of the earth. This is consistent with the information in Rev. 9 where entities only impacted the earth once they left the abyss prison.

And it says he is put in prison so that he might not deceive the nations which are still there.

Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison
Rev 20:8 and will come out to deceive the nations that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them for battle; their number is like the sand of the sea.

You have given no reason to change the meaning of abyss from Rev. 9 to Rev. 20. The abyss is not the desolate earth. And satan is released FROM it before he goes to the four corners of the earth.

 

[BobRyan]

The reason I don't downsize Rev 19 from "all people" to "some people", and downsize the "rest were killed" into "the rest of some of the people were killed" or "the rest of the army that is not -- all people" is because there is "no human" only ruined cities on earth after that event Jer 4:23-26

Rev 19
"the rest" includes all that is left over - in Rev 19 -- so also "the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

 

[BobRyan]

You say the earth was desolate, but this is not the case.

In fact it is the case as we saw here

Rev 19 shows us that nothing but a desolate earth is left after the appearing of Christ in Rev 19

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

====================================
All who are not saved - are destroyed as we see in 2 Thess 1

6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day

=====================

Because of the rapture that also happens at that time 1 Thess 4:13-18 - this leaves earth with no humans

Jeremiah 4 "I looked and behold there was no human" only destroyed cities

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

Don't miss that last part

Jeremiah 4 "I looked and behold there was no human" only destroyed cities

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

 

[BobRyan]

Revelation 19 does not point that out, but records the army destroyed,

It records "all people" destroyed as we saw here.. army "AND all people", as opposed to the army "but NOT all people"

Rev 19 shows us that nothing but a desolate earth is left after the appearing of Christ in Rev 19

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

====================================
All who are not saved - are destroyed as we see in 2 Thess 1

6 For after all it is only right for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to give relief to you who are afflicted, along with us, when the Lord Jesus will be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, dealing out retribution to those who do not know God, and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These people will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes to be glorified among His saints on that day

=====================

Because of the rapture that also happens at that time 1 Thess 4:13-18 - this leaves earth with no humans

Jeremiah 4 "I looked and behold there was no human" only destroyed cities

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

And scripture tells us that leaves earth desolate with no humans and nothing but destroyed cities as we just saw in that quote.

so the army destroyed " and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

so then "not" --

the army destroyed " and NOT the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”​

 

[tall73]

The reason I don't downsize Rev 19 from "all people" to "some people", and downsize the "rest were killed" into "the rest of some of the people were killed" or "the rest of the army that is not -- all people" is because there is "no human" only ruined cities on earth after that event Jer 4:23-26

The reason you claim what you do is you won't deal with the context in either case.

Rev 19
"the rest" includes all that is left over - in Rev 19 -- so also "the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

The angel calls with a loud voice and tells the birds to gather...why gather? Because the armies are gathering to one spot.

Rev 19:17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God

The birds are gathering to eat specific types of flesh, including that of horses. Why horses? Because they are part of the armies of the kings of the earth.

Rev 19:18 to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all, both free and slave, both small and great.”

He announces this call to the birds, and then we see what they are going to eat:

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

The birds are gathered to this place because the armies are gathered to this place.

Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.

Two of the figures in these armies are placed in the lake of fire.

Then the "rest" are slain. The rest of what? The rest of the army just described, gathered together, with the birds gathered also to eat their bodies.

Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

Jeremiah 4 "I looked and behold there was no human" only destroyed cities

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

You have divorced this passage from its context, and inserted it into Rev. 19-20, even though Rev. 19-20 do not quote or reference this at all.

The context makes clear it is speaking of earlier events, where the Lord brings judgment from the north against Judah:

Jer 4:5 Declare in Judah, and proclaim in Jerusalem, and say, “Blow the trumpet through the land; cry aloud and say, ‘Assemble, and let us go into the fortified cities!’
Jer 4:6 Raise a standard toward Zion, flee for safety, stay not, for I bring disaster from the north, and great destruction.

This is continuing the theme that started even in chapter 1:

Jer 1:13 The word of the LORD came to me a second time, saying, “What do you see?” And I said, “I see a boiling pot, facing away from the north.”
Jer 1:14 Then the LORD said to me, “Out of the north disaster shall be let loose upon all the inhabitants of the land.
Jer 1:15 For behold, I am calling all the tribes of the kingdoms of the north, declares the LORD, and they shall come, and every one shall set his throne at the entrance of the gates of Jerusalem, against all its walls all around and against all the cities of Judah.
Jer 1:16 And I will declare my judgments against them, for all their evil in forsaking me. They have made offerings to other gods and worshiped the works of their own hands.

This power from the North is going to lay waste to the cities:

Jer 4:7 A lion has gone up from his thicket, a destroyer of nations has set out; he has gone out from his place to make your land a waste; your cities will be ruins without inhabitant.
Jer 4:8 For this put on sackcloth, lament and wail, for the fierce anger of the LORD has not turned back from us.”

The cities in Judah will be laid waste because of the anger of the Lord, who brings armies from the north.

This is referring to the soon coming judgment brought against Judah by Babylon.

Jer 4:9 “In that day, declares the LORD, courage shall fail both king and officials. The priests shall be appalled and the prophets astounded.”
Jer 4:10 Then I said, “Ah, Lord GOD, surely you have utterly deceived this people and Jerusalem, saying, ‘It shall be well with you,’ whereas the sword has reached their very life.”
Jer 4:11 At that time it will be said to this people and to Jerusalem, “A hot wind from the bare heights in the desert toward the daughter of my people, not to winnow or cleanse,
Jer 4:12 a wind too full for this comes for me. Now it is I who speak in judgment upon them.”
Jer 4:13 Behold, he comes up like clouds; his chariots like the whirlwind; his horses are swifter than eagles— woe to us, for we are ruined!
Jer 4:14 O Jerusalem, wash your heart from evil, that you may be saved. How long shall your wicked thoughts lodge within you?
Jer 4:15 For a voice declares from Dan and proclaims trouble from Mount Ephraim.
Jer 4:16 Warn the nations that he is coming; announce to Jerusalem, “Besiegers come from a distant land; they shout against the cities of Judah.

A power that besieges, again a reference to Babylon. It does not describe the judgment in Rev. 19. There is no siege there.


Jer 4:17 Like keepers of a field are they against her all around, because she has rebelled against me, declares the LORD.
Jer 4:18 Your ways and your deeds have brought this upon you. This is your doom, and it is bitter; it has reached your very heart.”

They will be surrounded. This is happening because of their deeds.

Jer 4:19 My anguish, my anguish! I writhe in pain! Oh the walls of my heart! My heart is beating wildly; I cannot keep silent, for I hear the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.
Jer 4:20 Crash follows hard on crash; the whole land is laid waste. Suddenly my tents are laid waste, my curtains in a moment.
Jer 4:21 How long must I see the standard and hear the sound of the trumpet?
Jer 4:22 “For my people are foolish; they know me not; they are stupid children; they have no understanding. They are ‘wise’—in doing evil! But how to do good they know not.”

Crash upon crash, the whole land laid waste, describing the conquest of the cities.

Now you claim the following verses are a contextual island and speak of the 1k years. But that doesn't follow at all.

Jer 4:23 I looked on the earth, and behold, it was without form and void; and to the heavens, and they had no light.
Jer 4:24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking, and all the hills moved to and fro.
Jer 4:25 I looked, and behold, there was no man, and all the birds of the air had fled.
Jer 4:26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a desert, and all its cities were laid in ruins before the LORD, before his fierce anger.

He uses language of the pre-creation earth to emphasize the extent of the devastation. The cities are destroyed, as foretold at the beginning of the chapter. It is showing the aftermath of the sieging of the cities.


Jer 4:27 For thus says the LORD, “The whole land shall be a desolation; yet I will not make a full end.
Jer 4:28 “For this the earth shall mourn, and the heavens above be dark; for I have spoken; I have purposed; I have not relented, nor will I turn back.”

The heavens and earth are said to mourn because of the judgment poured out. But He will not make a full end.

Jer 4:29 At the noise of horseman and archer every city takes to flight; they enter thickets; they climb among rocks; all the cities are forsaken, and no man dwells in them.

The cities are abandoned as it is seen the forces are overwhelming.


Jer 4:30 And you, O desolate one, what do you mean that you dress in scarlet, that you adorn yourself with ornaments of gold, that you enlarge your eyes with paint? In vain you beautify yourself. Your lovers despise you; they seek your life.
Jer 4:31 For I heard a cry as of a woman in labor, anguish as of one giving birth to her first child, the cry of the daughter of Zion gasping for breath, stretching out her hands, “Woe is me! I am fainting before murderers.”

This theme has been stated before by the prophets. God's idolatrous people who turned to the gods of the nations are now being destroyed by the adulterous lovers they turned to instead of the Lord.

 

[tall73]

The reason I don't downsize

It is not downsizing to read in the context that it is speaking of the armies.

Your whole method seems to be to pull everything out of its context, re-arrange it and ignore the parts you don't care for.

You can't explain:

-why you change the nature of the abyss described earlier in Revelation.

-Why satan has to be imprisoned so that he might not decieve the nations, when you claim there are no nations

- why you claim the New Jerusalem comes down at the beginning of the events when the 1k years ends, when it is not stated.

- why you claim Jesus comes to earth from heaven at the beginning of the events when the 1k years ends, when it is not stated.

- why there are nations on the earth when satan is released, though you claim all were destroyed.

- why you say the resurrection after the 1k years happens before the nations are deceived by satan, even though in the chapter the resurrection happens after satan is cast in the lake of fire.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

bob what do you do with the Nations that are left after Satan is destroyed? Whey did they come from, were they in heaven REV 22:4

 

[roman2819]

There are many different interpretations of Revelation and no one can exactly agreed which is absolutely correct.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

There are many different interpretations of Revelation and no one can exactly agreed which is absolutely correct.

interpretations of Revelation is not the issue. What is the issue "is what does the text say". What is not the issues is "what does the text mean". If you cannot agree on what it says, you cannot even discuss what it means.