SDA and the New Jerusalem

[BobRyan]

The reason you claim what you do is you won't deal with the context in either case.

The reason you keep to that response is that you are sidestepping the fact noted in
Isaiah 14,
Ezek 28,
Isaiah 9 ...
Is 66 etc

that all the OT texts speaking to future eschatalogical events or future Messianic events ALSO include other elements in the same chapter that are local and not future. Your dismissal of the Jer 4:23-25 details that do not fit your POV and that point to a unique future point in time where no humans are on Earth, all the Earth is in ruins and is desolate, and all its cities torn down "before the anger of the Lord" (so clearly at the return of Christ in Rev 19) -- is "more than a little noticeable"

Your post emphasizes and highlights that fact in the silence you give those verses and your efforts to downsize them into some local planet earth, some local group of cities, some local lack of people.

But as I have stated repeatedly - once someone takes the wrong turn in 2 Thess 1 so it is not "all unbelievers" and the wrong turn in Rev 19 so that it is not really "the rest" of mankind that is not in the army already destroyed in previous verses - and takes the wrong turn in Jer 4:23-25 so "Earth" is not earth, and "Earth desolate" is not Earth desolate" and "no human" on that desolate Earth is not really that either, and Earth's cities destroyed by an act of God is not really that either... then Rev 20 condition that the Bible dictates is no longer the only way to think of it - and many confusing scenarios get inserted in Rev 20 where wicked are cast into the lake of fire then resurrected judged and cast into the lake of fire "again".

I don't find that method very compelling.

 

[tall73]

The reason you keep to that response is that you are sidestepping the fact noted in Isaiah 14, Ezek 28, Isaiah 9 ... Is 66 etc that all the OT texts speaking to future eschatalogical events or future Messianic events ALSO include other elements in the same chapter that are local and not future.

Actually, the reason we stick to looking at what the text actually says in Jeremiah 4, instead of ignoring the context, is because it makes sense in context.

And your view doesn't at all make sense of the context in Rev. 19 where you have imported it without warrant. Which is why there is a whole list of things you change and ignore to shoe horn in Jeremiah 4 into a context where it is not referenced at all.

Your dismissal of the Jer 4:23-25 details that do not fit your POV and that point to a unique future point in time where no humans are on Earth, all the Earth is in ruins and is desolate, and all its cities torn down "before the anger of the Lord" (so clearly at the return of Christ in Rev 19) -- is "more than a little noticeable"

The cities torn down fits the details in Jeremiah four which was a siege utilizing force sent by the Lord, and hence the anger of the Lord was predicted to do just that in the time, and did.

And you ignore the verses all around it, just as you do in Rev. 19.

Jer 4:16 Warn the nations that he is coming; announce to Jerusalem, “Besiegers come from a distant land; they shout against the cities of Judah.
Jer 4:17 Like keepers of a field are they against her all around, because she has rebelled against me, declares the LORD.


Jer 4:29 At the noise of horseman and archer every city takes to flight; they enter thickets; they climb among rocks; all the cities are forsaken, and no man dwells in them.

This is not talking about Rev. 19. It is talking about what the whole chapter in Jeremiah 4 is talking about, the judgment on numerous nations at that time, brought about by the Lord, by the Babylonians who did destroy cities by siege.

Your post emphasizes and highlights that fact in the silence you give those verses and your efforts to downsize them into some local planet earth, some local group of cities, some local lack of people.

I was not silent on those verses, and you again made no effort to understand the chapter at all other than to say the verses you choose, though of course we both know it is not you choosing. are about Rev. 19.

And you then ignore all the verses around Rev. 19 as well.

But as I have stated repeatedly - once someone takes the wrong turn in 2 Thess 1 so it is not "all unbelievers"

Bob....you didn't even address what I said about 2 Thess. 1.

2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

It is talking about all unbelievers, but it refers to the eternal destruction by fire that happens AFTER the 1k years, seeing it all together. You claim that eternal destruction by fire is after the 1k years as well, so apparently you took a "wrong turn" in your statement here.

and the wrong turn in Rev 19 so that it is not really "the rest" of mankind

Since it doesn't say the rest of "mankind", but the rest, which refers back to the army just described, that is hardly a wrong turn.

and takes the wrong turn in Jer 4:23-25 so "Earth" is not earth, and "Earth desolate" is not Earth desolate" and "no human" on that desolate Earth is not really that either, and Earth's cities destroyed by an act of God is not really that either.

It is God acting, the cities were destroyed by the Babylonians, and you have applied all that incorrectly to Rev. 19. Rev. 19 does not state that the cities are destroyed. It doesn't state that the earth is desolate either. So you have ripped a proof text from its context to show that the events of Rev. 19 match what you claim, but they don't even match what Rev. 19 does say.

And the earth being without form and void is because of the destruction that happened for many nations at the time of the Babylonians. It is poetic language, certainly. But there is nothing at all that corresponds to that in Rev. 19. So saying that the only time what you think is happening in Jeremiah 4 could happen is in Rev. 19, when it doesn't show it happening there either makes no sense.


The abyss in Rev. is not the desolate earth, but a pit, and those who come out of the pit can only impact the earth once they leave it. So that does not at all prove that Jeremiah 4 applies.

The cities are not stated to be destroyed in Rev. 19. In fact it refers twice to nations you claim are not there.

.. then Rev 20 condition that the Bible dictates is no longer the only way to think of it - and many confusing scenarios get inserted in Rev 20 where wicked are cast into the lake of fire then resurrected judged and cast into the lake of fire "again".

I don't find that method very compelling.

You apparently don't find that actual text compelling, because you want to ignore that the nations, which you claim don't exist, have fire come down from heaven to destroy them before the resurrection even happens, at the Great White Throne judgment.

So again you make no effort to explain what the actual text says. You don't explain:

-why you change the nature of the abyss described earlier in Revelation.

-Why satan has to be imprisoned so that he might not decieve the nations, when you claim there are no nations

- why you claim the New Jerusalem comes down at the beginning of the events when the 1k years ends, when it is not stated.

- why you claim Jesus comes to earth from heaven at the beginning of the events when the 1k years ends, when it is not stated.

- why there are nations on the earth when satan is released, though you claim all were destroyed.

- why you say the resurrection after the 1k years happens before the nations are deceived by satan, even though in the chapter the resurrection happens after satan is cast in the lake of fire

And you ignore the context of Jeremiah 4, and you ignore the context of Rev. 19.

I don't find that method very compelling.

We don't find this list of yours compelling when you have to re-order things and omit things to get it, instead of going through what the text says:

1. Earth is desolate for 1000 years.
2. One thousand years end...
3. New Jerusalem comes down
4. The wicked are raised and surround the camp of the saints
5. The great white throne judgment
6. Lake of fire, earth destroyed, New Jerusalem not in Lake of fire.
7. Earth made new
8. New Jerusalem comes down to the New Earth.


Show where the New Jerusalem comes down IN THE TEXT in the old earth.

Show where the wicked are raised BEFORE they surround the camp IN THE TEXT. They are not raised until after those events in the text, after Satan is cast in the lake of fire.

 

[BobRyan]

Actually, the reason we stick to looking at what the text actually says in Jeremiah 4, instead of ignoring the context, is because it makes sense in context.

The reason we treat eschatalogical statements in Jer 4 the same was as we do with
Isaiah 66,
and Ezek 28
and Isaiah 14 and
Isaiah 9

is because it makes sense to be consistent and obviously there is no "local context" for Jer 4 where all of planet Earth is said to be some local district or where all of earth has no human. It has to be all of Earth just a Jeremiah 4 states.

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

That is exactly the "desolate earth" condition that results from the total destruction that we find in Rev 19 where not only are the armies killed but "The REST are killed" as well.

This is are to refute. IT is easy and obvious

Your solution so far is of the form
"earth desolate is NOT earth desolate"
"earth with no human is NOT earth with no human"
"all Earth's cities is NOT all of Earth's cities"
"The REST were killed" in Rev 19 is "NOT all the rest killed"

It's just not that compelling. I don't know how you ever switched to that POV.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

The reason we treat eschatalogical statements in Jer 4 the same was as we do with
Isaiah 66,
and Ezek 28
and Isaiah 14 and
Isaiah 9

is because it makes sense to be consistent and obviously there is no "local context" for Jer 4 where all of planet Earth is said to be some local district or where all of earth has no human. It has to be all of Earth just a Jeremiah 4 states.

23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness;
And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

That is exactly the "desolate earth" condition that results from the total destruction that we find in Rev 19 where not only are the armies killed but "The REST are killed" as well.

This is are to refute. IT is easy and obvious

Your solution so far is of the form
"earth desolate is NOT earth desolate"
"earth with no human is NOT earth with no human"
"all Earth's cities is NOT all of Earth's cities"
"The REST were killed" in Rev 19 is "NOT all the rest killed"

It's just not that compelling. I don't know how you ever switched to that POV.

Bob you are ignoring context
vs,1 Israel
3-5 Judah & Jerusalem
6 Zion
7 Nation & cities
10 King, princes & priests, Prophet
11 Jerusalem
12 , chariots & horses
14. Jerusalem
15. Dan, Ephriam, Jerusalem, Judah
19 war
20 tents
22, My people are foolish

This is the context immediately before. What in that tells you he is talking about the end time rather then the time of writing? all point to Israel

vs. 27 whole land
29 city shall flee
31 daughter of Zion

This is the immediate context after. What in these texts make you think he is talking about the end day rather then Jerusalem @ the time of writing?

 

[tall73]

The reason you keep to that response is that you are sidestepping the fact noted in
Isaiah 14,
Ezek 28,
Isaiah 9 ...
Is 66 etc

that all the OT texts speaking to future eschatalogical events or future Messianic events ALSO include other elements in the same chapter that are local and not future.

We can recognize instances where a particular passage has elements that apply to Jesus' first and second coming, which is seen to be such when fulfilled. We can see passages that have some parts that correspond to current events, and some to future events. And we can recognize texts where something may apply to both previous events with satan, and also apply to a human ruler at the time of writing.

But this is not the same as that. In those scenarios we see both are true, and come to pass in their respective times.

But here you have a notion Adventists came up with regarding Rev. 19-20, that you claim is happening, but Revelation 19-20 doesn't say.

It doesn't say there is a desolate earth, and it doesn't say cities are destroyed. It in fact shows the opposite. It shows nations, not a desolate earth. It shows an intact city, not cities destroyed.

So when you then cite Jeremiah 4 to say it proves the Adventist view of Rev. 19-20, it doesn't at all. Because it describes things that don't mach up with Rev. 19-20. And Rev. 19-20 do not reference or quote Jeremiah 4. Adventists invented their own scenario, then went in search of an out of context proof-text.

And Jeremiah 4 does in fact make sense in its own context, as a poetic description of the destruction at that time that the Lord brought about.

there is no "local context" for Jer 4 where all of planet Earth is said to be some local district or where all of earth has no human. It has to be all of Earth just a Jeremiah 4 states.

Various nations were judged at that time, not just one district. It is poetic language, but describes the destruction of that time, and makes sense in context.

But in Rev. 19-20 you say it fits, but there is no statement of destruction of cities. There is no statement of a desolate earth. In fact, when Satan is let out of his prison there are not only nations still there, but there is a city that is intact, not desolate, and it is surrounded.

And to explain this you postulate it is the new Jerusalem. But the New Jerusalem is only described in the text as coming down in the new earth.

So because you can't explain anything in 19-20 in line with what the text actually says, you base all of your argument on an out of context proof text that Adventists had to search out to support their made up scenario.

This is are to refute. IT is easy and obvious

Your solution so far is of the form
"earth desolate is NOT earth desolate"
"earth with no human is NOT earth with no human"
"all Earth's cities is NOT all of Earth's cities"
"The REST were killed" in Rev 19 is "NOT all the rest killed"

It's just not that compelling. I don't know how you ever switched to that POV.

Whenever you can't explain all the problems with context you default to saying "not compelling, " without actually explaining the text. Rev. 19 - 20 does not describe your scenario. So you refuse to address all the various details raised there. Instead you repeat the isolated verses Adventists pulled from Jeremiah 4 over and over, never addressing how even those hand-picked verses don't match what Rev. 19-20 actually says

And you won't look at all of Jeremiah 4 either. Ice and I keep asking you to look at the whole text in both because we realize that looking at the context is far more "compelling."

Items you won't address:

- why the birds are told to gather if the bodies will be across the whole world. They are gathered to the scene of the battle of the armies
-why it includes horses--because they are part of the armies.
- it doesn't say the rest of "mankind", but the rest, which refers back to the army just described
-why you change the nature of the abyss described earlier in Revelation, when it is plainly a place of holding, which existed already when people were on the earth, and things have to come out of it to impact the earth.
-Why satan has to be imprisoned so that he might not deceive the nations, when you claim there are no nations
- why you claim the New Jerusalem comes down at the beginning of the events when the 1k years ends, when it is not stated.
- why you claim Jesus comes to earth from heaven at the beginning of the events when the 1k years ends, when it is not stated.
- why there are nations on the earth when satan is released, though you claim all were destroyed.
- why you say the resurrection after the 1k years happens before the nations are deceived by satan, even though in the chapter the resurrection happens after satan is cast in the lake of fire

If your scenario doesn't match the details of Rev. 19-20, then citing select verses from Jeremiah 4 that also don't match Rev. 19-20 doesn't help you. It just shows another instance where you refuse to look at the context.

 

[BobRyan]

The reason we treat eschatalogical statements in Jer 4 the same was as we do with
Isaiah 66,
and Ezek 28
and Isaiah 14 and
Isaiah 9

Bob you are ignoring context
vs,1 Israel
3-5 Judah & Jerusalem
6 Zion
7 Nation & cities
10 King, princes & priests, Prophet
11 Jerusalem
12 , chariots & horses
14. Jerusalem
15. Dan, Ephriam, Jerusalem, Judah
19 war
20 tents
22, My people are foolish

This is the context immediately before. What in that tells you he is talking about the end time rather then the time of writing? all point to Israel

vs. 27 whole land
29 city shall flee
31 daughter of Zion

This is the immediate context after. What in these texts make you think he is talking about the end day rather then Jerusalem @ the time of writing?

As I show in my post - I can do that same "put not in front of what the text says" with these eschatalogical and messianic texts -- as if there can be no such thing as a reference to a later event if any detail in the chapter is for a local reference.

Isaiah 66,
and Ezek 28
and Isaiah 14 and
Isaiah 9

Most Bible scholars freely admit those chapters are doing the very thing I point out - they have a chapter that includes local references and at some point insert text that references to eschatalogical or messianic events. One does not have to be SDA to notice it.


So when we see these details in the text - that don't fit "local context only" there is no need to insert "not" in front of them


Jeremiah 4
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

So all of that has to be put in place after the 1000 years ends

a desolate Earth does not have the camp of the saints, the holy city, the wicked alive and ready to surround the camp of the saints...

in fact it has "no human"

==========================

It fits Rev 19 - perfectly

where once again we don't need to downsize Rev 19

• from "all people" to "some people"
• , and downsize the "rest were killed" into "the rest of some of the people were killed"
  
• or "the rest of the army that is not -- all people"

And that is because there is "no human" and there is only ruined cities on earth after that event Jer 4:23-26

Rev 19
"the rest" includes all that is left over - in Rev 19 -- so also "the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in midheaven, “Come, assemble for the great feast of God, 18 so that you may eat the flesh of kings and the flesh of commanders, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, and small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him who sat on the horse, and against His army.

20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

==============

Which is the case as well for 2 Thess 1 - where all unbelievers are slain at Christ's appearing -

2 Thess 1:
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction

 

[BobRyan]

Items you won't address:

- why the birds are told to gather if the bodies will be across the whole world. They are gathered to the scene of the battle of the armies

Because I am not convinced even you take that seriously - since in Rev 19 a real battle is described and so as Rev 16 points out - all the world was gathered ... for battle -- i.e. a place where lots of corpses would result as they lost it... but does not negate the scripture saying birds eat dead corpses across the entire world not just at that one gathering.

Jer 25:33
33 “Those put to death by the Lord on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

Ez 32:4-5
I will leave you on the land;
I will hurl you on the open field.
And I will cause all the birds of the sky to nest on you,
And I will satisfy the animals of the whole earth with you.
5 I will lay your flesh on the mountains
And fill the valleys with your refuse.

The very detail you knew full well one time as a pastor but now ask me to quote??? how can that be??

 

[tall73]

Because I am not convinced even you take that seriously - since in Rev 19 a real battle is described and so as Rev 16 points out - all the world was gathered ... for battle -- i.e. a place where lots of corpses would result as they lost it... but does not negate the scripture saying birds eat dead corpses across the entire world not just at that one gathering.

Bob, we do actually take seriously what the text of Rev. 19-21 says. And you just conceded the point. The armies are gathered to a battle, and the birds are as well.

And as you note Rev. 16 also shows the kings from around the world gathering to one place for battle.

Rev 16:14 For they are demonic spirits, performing signs, who go abroad to the kings of the whole world, to assemble them for battle on the great day of God the Almighty.
Rev 16:15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)
Rev 16:16 And they assembled them at the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.

Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.
Rev 19:20 And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulfur.
Rev 19:21 And the rest were slain by the sword that came from the mouth of him who was sitting on the horse, and all the birds were gorged with their flesh.

It is quite clear that it is the rest of the armies that were gathered, that the birds that were gathered, are going to eat.

Jer 25:33
33 “Those put to death by the Lord on that day will be from one end of the earth to the other. They will not be mourned, gathered, or buried; they will be like dung on the face of the ground.

It is strange that you want to look at all these texts which are not talking about Rev. 19-20, but don't want to look at the context of 19-20, other than admitting the point above that the armies were in fact gathered, which doesn't help your case.

Once again this passage in Jer. 25 is talking about events in his time. And if anything they note that there were a number of nations punished by the Lord at that time, as noted earlier.

Jer 25:15 Thus the LORD, the God of Israel, said to me: “Take from my hand this cup of the wine of wrath, and make all the nations to whom I send you drink it.
Jer 25:16 They shall drink and stagger and be crazed because of the sword that I am sending among them.”
Jer 25:17 So I took the cup from the LORD's hand, and made all the nations to whom the LORD sent me drink it:
Jer 25:18 Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and officials, to make them a desolation and a waste, a hissing and a curse, as at this day;
Jer 25:19 Pharaoh king of Egypt, his servants, his officials, all his people,
Jer 25:20 and all the mixed tribes among them; all the kings of the land of Uz and all the kings of the land of the Philistines (Ashkelon, Gaza, Ekron, and the remnant of Ashdod);
Jer 25:21 Edom, Moab, and the sons of Ammon;
Jer 25:22 all the kings of Tyre, all the kings of Sidon, and the kings of the coastland across the sea;
Jer 25:23 Dedan, Tema, Buz, and all who cut the corners of their hair;
Jer 25:24 all the kings of Arabia and all the kings of the mixed tribes who dwell in the desert;
Jer 25:25 all the kings of Zimri, all the kings of Elam, and all the kings of Media;
Jer 25:26 all the kings of the north, far and near, one after another, and all the kingdoms of the world that are on the face of the earth. And after them the king of Babylon shall drink.
Jer 25:27 “Then you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel: Drink, be drunk and vomit, fall and rise no more, because of the sword that I am sending among you.’
Jer 25:28 “And if they refuse to accept the cup from your hand to drink, then you shall say to them, ‘Thus says the LORD of hosts: You must drink!
Jer 25:29 For behold, I begin to work disaster at the city that is called by my name, and shall you go unpunished? You shall not go unpunished, for I am summoning a sword against all the inhabitants of the earth, declares the LORD of hosts.’
Jer 25:30 “You, therefore, shall prophesy against them all these words, and say to them: “‘The LORD will roar from on high, and from his holy habitation utter his voice; he will roar mightily against his fold, and shout, like those who tread grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.
Jer 25:31 The clamor will resound to the ends of the earth, for the LORD has an indictment against the nations; he is entering into judgment with all flesh, and the wicked he will put to the sword, declares the LORD.’
Jer 25:32 “Thus says the LORD of hosts: Behold, disaster is going forth from nation to nation, and a great tempest is stirring from the farthest parts of the earth!
Jer 25:33 “And those pierced by the LORD on that day shall extend from one end of the earth to the other. They shall not be lamented, or gathered, or buried; they shall be dung on the surface of the ground.
Jer 25:34 “Wail, you shepherds, and cry out, and roll in ashes, you lords of the flock, for the days of your slaughter and dispersion have come, and you shall fall like a choice vessel.
Jer 25:35 No refuge will remain for the shepherds, nor escape for the lords of the flock.
Jer 25:36 A voice—the cry of the shepherds, and the wail of the lords of the flock! For the LORD is laying waste their pasture,
Jer 25:37 and the peaceful folds are devastated because of the fierce anger of the LORD.
Jer 25:38 Like a lion he has left his lair, for their land has become a waste because of the sword of the oppressor, and because of his fierce anger.”


He mentions nations involved, mentions that it is from the north, mentionns that He is summoning the sword to do his bidding, etc.

It speaks of the land becoming waste, but again we noted that does not happen in Rev. 19-20, rather the nations are still there at the end of the 1k years, and a city still intact.

Once again the context does not support you. But it does show that the judgment carried out that Jeremiah was to proclaim was extensive, and involved a number of nations in his day. Some of which are not still around.

Ez 32:4-5
I will leave you on the land;
I will hurl you on the open field.
And I will cause all the birds of the sky to nest on you,
And I will satisfy the animals of the whole earth with you.
5 I will lay your flesh on the mountains
And fill the valleys with your refuse.

More of the same.....

Eze 32:1 In the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the first day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 32:2 “Son of man, raise a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him: “You consider yourself a lion of the nations, but you are like a dragon in the seas; you burst forth in your rivers, trouble the waters with your feet, and foul their rivers.
Eze 32:3 Thus says the Lord GOD: I will throw my net over you with a host of many peoples, and they will haul you up in my dragnet.
Eze 32:4 And I will cast you on the ground; on the open field I will fling you, and will cause all the birds of the heavens to settle on you, and I will gorge the beasts of the whole earth with you.
Eze 32:5 I will strew your flesh upon the mountains and fill the valleys with your carcass.
Eze 32:6 I will drench the land even to the mountains with your flowing blood, and the ravines will be full of you.
Eze 32:7 When I blot you out, I will cover the heavens and make their stars dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give its light.
Eze 32:8 All the bright lights of heaven will I make dark over you, and put darkness on your land, declares the Lord GOD.
Eze 32:9 “I will trouble the hearts of many peoples, when I bring your destruction among the nations, into the countries that you have not known.
Eze 32:10 I will make many peoples appalled at you, and the hair of their kings shall bristle with horror because of you, when I brandish my sword before them. They shall tremble every moment, every one for his own life, on the day of your downfall.
Eze 32:11 “For thus says the Lord GOD: The sword of the king of Babylon shall come upon you.
Eze 32:12 I will cause your multitude to fall by the swords of mighty ones, all of them most ruthless of nations. “They shall bring to ruin the pride of Egypt, and all its multitude shall perish.
Eze 32:13 I will destroy all its beasts from beside many waters; and no foot of man shall trouble them anymore, nor shall the hoofs of beasts trouble them.
Eze 32:14 Then I will make their waters clear, and cause their rivers to run like oil, declares the Lord GOD.
Eze 32:15 When I make the land of Egypt desolate, and when the land is desolate of all that fills it, when I strike down all who dwell in it, then they will know that I am the LORD.
Eze 32:16 This is a lamentation that shall be chanted; the daughters of the nations shall chant it; over Egypt, and over all her multitude, shall they chant it, declares the Lord GOD.”
Eze 32:17 In the twelfth year, in the twelfth month, on the fifteenth day of the month, the word of the LORD came to me:
Eze 32:18 “Son of man, wail over the multitude of Egypt, and send them down, her and the daughters of majestic nations, to the world below, to those who have gone down to the pit:
Eze 32:19 ‘Whom do you surpass in beauty? Go down and be laid to rest with the uncircumcised.’
Eze 32:20 They shall fall amid those who are slain by the sword. Egypt is delivered to the sword; drag her away, and all her multitudes.
Eze 32:21 The mighty chiefs shall speak of them, with their helpers, out of the midst of Sheol: ‘They have come down, they lie still, the uncircumcised, slain by the sword.’
Eze 32:22 “Assyria is there, and all her company, its graves all around it, all of them slain, fallen by the sword,
Eze 32:23 whose graves are set in the uttermost parts of the pit; and her company is all around her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who spread terror in the land of the living.
Eze 32:24 “Elam is there, and all her multitude around her grave; all of them slain, fallen by the sword, who went down uncircumcised into the world below, who spread their terror in the land of the living; and they bear their shame with those who go down to the pit.
Eze 32:25 They have made her a bed among the slain with all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for terror of them was spread in the land of the living, and they bear their shame with those who go down to the pit; they are placed among the slain.
Eze 32:26 “Meshech-Tubal is there, and all her multitude, her graves all around it, all of them uncircumcised, slain by the sword; for they spread their terror in the land of the living.
Eze 32:27 And they do not lie with the mighty, the fallen from among the uncircumcised, who went down to Sheol with their weapons of war, whose swords were laid under their heads, and whose iniquities are upon their bones; for the terror of the mighty men was in the land of the living.
Eze 32:28 But as for you, you shall be broken and lie among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword.
Eze 32:29 “Edom is there, her kings and all her princes, who for all their might are laid with those who are killed by the sword; they lie with the uncircumcised, with those who go down to the pit.
Eze 32:30 “The princes of the north are there, all of them, and all the Sidonians, who have gone down in shame with the slain, for all the terror that they caused by their might; they lie uncircumcised with those who are slain by the sword, and bear their shame with those who go down to the pit.
Eze 32:31 “When Pharaoh sees them, he will be comforted for all his multitude, Pharaoh and all his army, slain by the sword, declares the Lord GOD.
Eze 32:32 For I spread terror in the land of the living; and he shall be laid to rest among the uncircumcised, with those who are slain by the sword, Pharaoh and all his multitude, declares the Lord GOD.”


Egypt laid waste by Babylon.

The very detail you knew full well one time as a pastor but now ask me to quote??? how can that be??

I never applied these texts describing a judgment in the OT as you do here.

And now of course I see how flawed it was to not read Revelation 19-21 for what it says, rather than as Adventists interpret it.

All you did was reinforce that many nations were judged throughout the earth during that time. And you admitted the birds and armies in Rev. 19-21 were gathered to one spot.

Please continue going through the issues you need to address. Perhaps you will affirm some more:

Items you won't address:

- why the birds are told to gather if the bodies will be across the whole world. They are gathered to the scene of the battle of the armies--affirmed
-why it includes horses--because they are part of the armies.
- it doesn't say the rest of "mankind", but the rest, which refers back to the army just described
-why you change the nature of the abyss described earlier in Revelation, when it is plainly a place of holding, which existed already when people were on the earth, and things have to come out of it to impact the earth.
-Why satan has to be imprisoned so that he might not deceive the nations, when you claim there are no nations
- why you claim the New Jerusalem comes down at the beginning of the events when the 1k years ends, when it is not stated.
- why you claim Jesus comes to earth from heaven at the beginning of the events when the 1k years ends, when it is not stated.
- why there are nations on the earth when satan is released, though you claim all were destroyed.
- why you say the resurrection after the 1k years happens before the nations are deceived by satan, even though in the chapter the resurrection happens after satan is cast in the lake of fire

 

[Adventist Dissident]

As I show in my post - I can do that same "put not in front of what the text says" with these eschatalogical and messianic texts -- as if there can be no such thing as a reference to a later event if any detail in the chapter is for a local reference.

Isaiah 66,
and Ezek 28
and Isaiah 14 and
Isaiah 9

Most Bible scholars freely admit those chapters are doing the very thing I point out - they have a chapter that includes local references and at some point insert text that references to eschatalogical or messianic events. One does not have to be SDA to notice it.


So when we see these details in the text - that don't fit "local context only" there is no need to insert "not" in front of them


Jeremiah 4
23 I looked at the earth, and behold, it was a formless and desolate emptiness; And to the heavens, and they had no light.
24 I looked on the mountains, and behold, they were quaking,
And all the hills jolted back and forth.
25 I looked, and behold, there was no human,
And all the birds of the sky had fled.
26 I looked, and behold, the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were pulled down
Before the Lord, before His fierce anger.

So all of that has to be put in place after the 1000 years ends

a desolate Earth does not have the camp of the saints, the holy city, the wicked alive and ready to surround the camp of the saints...

in fact it has "no human"

==========================

All that is true Bob if you ignore what come before and after. But since we have to look at all the events you cannot draw the conclusion you draw. You are defending someone else's Mistake. There is no need for that

 

[tall73]

Which is the case as well for 2 Thess 1 - where all unbelievers are slain at Christ's appearing -

2 Thess 1:
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction

You cut off part of it Bob, and didn't address that this text extends to the time after the 1k years.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Punishment of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord with fire happens after the 1k years.

 

[BobRyan]

Which is the case as well for 2 Thess 1 - where all unbelievers are slain at Christ's appearing -

2 Thess 1:
6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction

You cut off part of it Bob, and didn't address that this text extends to the time after the 1k years.

2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Punishment of eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord with fire happens after the 1k years.

It says that this is when Jesus is revealed from heaven... it says it pertains to the saints being delivered by Christ -- all the details you are ignoring in that post

Instead of "ignore the rapture event when saints are taken to heaven" we are to focus on it. 1 Thess 4:13-18 see 1 Pet 1:13 "set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"

 

[BobRyan]

As I show in my post - I can do that same "put not in front of what the text says" with these eschatalogical and messianic texts -- as if there can be no such thing as a reference to a later event if any detail in the chapter is for a local reference.

Isaiah 66,
and Ezek 28
and Isaiah 14 and
Isaiah 9

All that is true Bob if you ignore what come before and after. But since we have to look at all the events you cannot draw the conclusion you draw.

Your proposal for the new definition of exegesis would wipe out all the Messianic and eschatalogical texts as noted above. I don't see how you get around that problem.

 

[tall73]

It says that this is when Jesus is revealed from heaven... it says it pertains to the saints being delivered by Christ -- all the details you are ignoring in that post

I have not ignored them. I have said already in the thread that it, like many texts, takes the whole series of events at Jesus' appearing into account, including the comfort of the saints, but also including the eternal destruction of the wicked, shut out from God's presence.

When does the eternal destruction of the wicked, shut out from God's presence happen Bob?

Instead of "ignore the rapture event when saints are taken to heaven" we are to focus on it. 1 Thess 4:13-18 see 1 Pet 1:13 "set your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"

1Pe 1:13 Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Yes, we are to set our hope on the grace to be brought to us. And we do.

But that doesn't change that Peter says the wicked are destroyed with the burning of the current heavens and earth, and its destruction.

2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

 

[tall73]

Your proposal for the new definition of exegesis would wipe out all the Messianic and eschatalogical texts as noted above. I don't see how you get around that problem.

Of course it wouldn't, because both he and I agreed that there are texts which talk about more than one time period.

The problem here is that Adventists have just picked this text in Jeremiah 4 that is not referenced in Revelation 19-21 and tried to say it was fulfilled then. But the details don't match up.

There are still nations, and still a city at the end of the 1k years.

The abyss is not the desolate earth, but is a holding place that satan goes into so that he might not deceive the nations.

Here are the things you need to address in your timeline Bob. You got to one already, though you affirmed it.

- why the birds are told to gather if the bodies will be across the whole world. They are gathered to the scene of the battle of the armies--affirmed
-why it includes horses--because they are part of the armies.
- it doesn't say the rest of "mankind", but the rest, which refers back to the army just described
-why you change the nature of the abyss described earlier in Revelation, when it is plainly a place of holding, which existed already when people were on the earth, and things have to come out of it to impact the earth.
-Why satan has to be imprisoned so that he might not deceive the nations, when you claim there are no nations
- why you claim the New Jerusalem comes down at the beginning of the events when the 1k years ends, when it is not stated.
- why you claim Jesus comes to earth from heaven at the beginning of the events when the 1k years ends, when it is not stated.
- why there are nations on the earth when satan is released, though you claim all were destroyed.
- why you say the resurrection after the 1k years happens before the nations are deceived by satan, even though in the chapter the resurrection happens after satan is cast in the lake of fire

 

[tall73]

1. Earth is desolate for 1000 years.
2. One thousand years end...
3. New Jerusalem comes down
4. The wicked are raised and surround the camp of the saints
5. The great white throne judgment
6. Lake of fire, earth destroyed, New Jerusalem not in Lake of fire.
7. Earth made new
8. New Jerusalem comes down to the New Earth.

This chart summarizes the differences between your outline and what the Scriptures state:

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Your proposal for the new definition of exegesis would wipe out all the Messianic and eschatalogical texts as noted above. I don't see how you get around that problem.

it is on a case by case basis. there are some text that it makes no sense when you take the prior , latter context into consideration, In other cases it makes more sense to take the prior and Latter context into consideration. What I can't figure out about your view is how it makes more sense to view it the way you do. simplicity favor a different view. I would not by reading that text thinking he was talking about anything other then Jerusalem getting destroyed and wiped off the face of the planet unless someone else told me to. I think that most people would agree with me and in fact most people do. It is not a personal thing, just a common sense thing.

 

[tall73]

I would not by reading that text thinking he was talking about anything other then Jerusalem getting destroyed and wiped off the face of the planet unless someone else told me to.

Yes, and there is no reason to think it refers to the time after Rev. 19 since there are in fact nations still which satan is bound so that he might not tempt them, and which are still there when he is let out.

And there is still a city, which is still intact, so that the nations surround it.

 

[BobRyan]

As I show in my post - I can do that same "put not in front of what the text says" with these eschatalogical and messianic texts -- as if there can be no such thing as a reference to a later event if any detail in the chapter is for a local reference.

Isaiah 66,
and Ezek 28
and Isaiah 14 and
Isaiah 9

All that is true Bob if you ignore what come before and after. But since we have to look at all the events you cannot draw the conclusion you draw.

Your proposal for the new definition of exegesis would wipe out all the Messianic and eschatalogical texts as noted above. I don't see how you get around that problem.

it is on a case by case basis.

Then you already admit - that simply showing that some other part of a book or chapter (since there are no chapter divisions in the initial manuscripts) has a local application does not limit the entire book or chapter from also have a section with very specific eschatalogical or messianic - future application.

Which is why we can have things like Jer 4:23-26 with no need at all to "down size" so as to shoehorn it into some local less-than application. Just as in the other cases - we can "leave it as it reads" and accept it.

Notice in your initial response to me - you spend a lot of time looking for anything at all in the chapter that has a local application. But never was the argument made that all eschatalogical or messianic texts in the OT would always be in a chapter with zero local references.

So it is a bit "odd" that that idea appears to show up here as if it were ever an accepted form of Bible interpretation.

What I can't figure out about your view is how it makes more sense to view it the way you do.

Just as in every other example I list - part of the chapter (rather than the entire book or the entire chapter) is Messianic or eschatalogical and rest is not. That section in Jer 4:23-26 is clearly not "local".

23 I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void;
And the heavens, they had no light.
24 I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled,
And all the hills moved back and forth.
25 I beheld, and indeed there was no man (no human),
And all the birds of the heavens had fled.
26 I beheld, and indeed the fruitful land was a wilderness,
And all its cities were broken down
At the presence of the Lord,
By His fierce anger.

simplicity favors taking the text as it reads.

I would not by reading that text thinking he was talking about anything other then Jerusalem getting destroyed .

Because you find that Jerusalem is "the entire earth" in the bible???
Because in your view the Earth with no humans - is the same as Jerusalem with no cities?.
Because in your view all the cities of earth - are the one city of Jerusalem?
Because in your view all the hills of Earth are confined to Jerusalem?
Because in your view the sky is just above Jerusalem?
Because in your view the mountains of Earth - are just in Jerusalem?

I don't find that option very compelling.

Yes, and there is no reason to think it refers to the time after Rev. 19

Until you accept Jer 4:23-26 as it reads - and "notice" that no one here has offered any other point in time where those details as described there - will exist on planet Earth... given that Rev 19 has all mankind destroyed as does 2 Thess 1 - at the appearing of Christ.

 

[tall73]

Then you already admit - that simply showing that some other part of a book or chapter (since there are no chapter divisions in the initial manuscripts) has a local application does not limit the entire book or chapter from also have a section with very specific eschatalogical or messianic - future application.

Right.

But in those cases the very specific application actually fits that future fulfillment. Here it doesn't. Because Revelation does not show a desolate earth, but nations, which Satan is imprisoned so that he might not deceive them. And they are still there when he is released. And when he deceives those nations they go to an intact city. And your notion of the abyss being the desolate earth changes how the abyss is described in the book.

Adventists also claim the New Jerusalem comes down in the present earth before the destruction of the wicked, but this is not in the text.

Adventist also postulate that Jesus comes back to earth after reigning in heaven, but that is not in the text.

It says Jesus is reigning, and there is no statement of His needing to return again.

Which is why we can have things like Jer 4:23-26 with no need at all to "down size" so as to shoehorn it into some local less-than application. Just as in the other cases - we can "leave it as it reads" and accept it.

Except it makes a lot more sense to read it as a poetic description of a time in which God destroyed many nations, besides Judah, than to shoe horn it into a text where the details don't fit at all, and you are not willing to address the details.

Adventists ignore, re-arrange, and add to what the text of Revelation 19-20 says. You should address those issues. And then you won't have to try to shoe horn in a text that doesn't fit the details of Rev. 19-20.

.. given that Rev 19 has all mankind destroyed as does 2 Thess 1 - at the appearing of Christ.

No Bob, Revelation 19-20 does not because you ignore that there are still nations, and because there is still an intact city.

And you won't address what has already been pointed out to you about 2 Thessalonians 1. It, like many New Testament texts, summarizes all the events from the coming of Jesus to the final destruction of the wicked:

2Th 1:6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you,
2Th 1:7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.
2Th 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,
2Th 1:10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed.

When does this happen Bob?

the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Even in your view it happens after the 1k years.

The same is seen in 2 Peter 3 which focuses on His coming, but also summarizes the final end of the wicked, which is at the destruction of the present earth by fire:

2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

So either all of these summarize the various events from Jesus' coming to the destruction of the wicked, or Revelation which is the only book to describe a period of 1k years of Christ's reigning between His coming and the destruction of the wicked is not literal, as many churches believe.

But if it is literal, then you have to look at all the details in the chapter, and you are not willing to do that.

Items you won't address:

- why the birds are told to gather if the bodies will be across the whole world. They are gathered to the scene of the battle of the armies--affirmed
-why it includes horses--because they are part of the armies.
- it doesn't say the rest of "mankind", but the rest, which refers back to the army just described
-why you change the nature of the abyss described earlier in Revelation, when it is plainly a place of holding, which existed already when people were on the earth, and things have to come out of it to impact the earth.
-Why satan has to be imprisoned so that he might not deceive the nations, when you claim there are no nations
- why you claim the New Jerusalem comes down at the beginning of the events when the 1k years ends, when it is not stated.
- why you claim Jesus comes to earth from heaven at the beginning of the events when the 1k years ends, when it is not stated.
- why there are nations on the earth when satan is released, though you claim all were destroyed.
- why you say the resurrection after the 1k years happens before the nations are deceived by satan, even though in the chapter the resurrection happens after satan is cast in the lake of fire


Your changes from the text:

 

[tall73]

By the way @icedragon101 I had always interpreted the interjection about a thousand years are as a day and a day as a thousand years by Peter as a reference to the delay in the coming. And I think that could still make sense.

However, given his insistence that the coming of Jesus and the destruction of the wicked with the earth are related could he have a different meaning, tied to the 1k years?

2Pe 3:4 They will say, “Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation.”
2Pe 3:5 For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God,
2Pe 3:6 and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished.
2Pe 3:7 But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.

2Pe 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
2Pe 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.
2Pe 3:11 Since all these things are thus to be dissolved, what sort of people ought you to be in lives of holiness and godliness,
2Pe 3:12 waiting for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be set on fire and dissolved, and the heavenly bodies will melt as they burn!
2Pe 3:13 But according to his promise we are waiting for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.