Scriptural Christianity

[ForAllTruth]

The main issue that Jesus, the prophets, and apostles seem to be concerned about is sin. The scriptures go to great lengths to help us understand what it is, how it manifests, the results of it, who can overcome it and how, etc.

What I have found to be the source of almost all divisions/contentions among those who claim to be Christians is on this topic. And that is exactly what we would expect to happen based on the teachings of scripture. The whole history described in the Bible is a story about the continual failure of the human race to achieve success in this area.

There are, however, individual exceptions. Have you noticed that certain people in the history of the world according to the Bible are exceptional in the way the scriptures describe their righteousness as contrasted to the overall situation presented of unrighteousness? What I am getting at is that the biblical standard of what it is to even be a Christian is very high. And the tendency throughout time has been to lower that standard down both in and outside of what passes as Christ's church among men.

With all this in mind, I would like to direct your attention to 1 John 3. Please read this chapter carefully. And then answer the following question.

What is the standard presented here that must be achieved to be considered born-again/regenerated?

Please resist the temptation to bring into consideration anything else outside this chapter until this question is properly answered.

 

[timothyu]

What is the standard presented here that must be achieved to be considered born-again/regenerated?

Others before self interest

 

[sandman]

spirit (seed) within

 

[d taylor]

-​

The standard in 1st John 3 is the exact same standard as in any other book of The Bible. That is to trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. Actually this is the only way to be born again that is accepted by God.

What 1st John 3 is speaking to, is that in the believer rest the spirit of God which does not sin and when God looks at a believer. God does not see the sinful spirit of the believer, but He sees the spirit of God. Which is sinless and does not sin.

Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The capital His seed, is God and not the believer, in the above verse.

But this chapter is about encouraging the believer to abide in God by keeping God's commandments. It is not about how an unbeliever becomes a believe, a born again child of God. If you want a book written by John that addresses how unbelievers become believers, John wrote the Gospel of John for that reason.

but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.

 

[ByTheSpirit]

I could literally post the whole chapter, I love 1 John so much, but to answer the OP with scripture as requested.

1 John 3:9 (ESV): No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

That is the distinguishing mark of those who are born again. Later in the chapter it describes one specific manifestation of sin, murder. Murder being defined as:

1 John 3:15 (ESV): Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

And what is the remedy for murder? Love!

1 John 3:17–18 (ESV): But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

The main issue that Jesus, the prophets, and apostles seem to be concerned about is sin. The scriptures go to great lengths to help us understand what it is, how it manifests, the results of it, who can overcome it and how, etc.

What I have found to be the source of almost all divisions/contentions among those who claim to be Christians is on this topic. And that is exactly what we would expect to happen based on the teachings of scripture. The whole history described in the Bible is a story about the continual failure of the human race to achieve success in this area.

There are, however, individual exceptions. Have you noticed that certain people in the history of the world according to the Bible are exceptional in the way the scriptures describe their righteousness as contrasted to the overall situation presented of unrighteousness? What I am getting at is that the biblical standard of what it is to even be a Christian is very high. And the tendency throughout time has been to lower that standard down both in and outside of what passes as Christ's church among men.

With all this in mind, I would like to direct your attention to 1 John 3. Please read this chapter carefully. And then answer the following question.

What is the standard presented here that must be achieved to be considered born-again/regenerated?

Please resist the temptation to bring into consideration anything else outside this chapter until this question is properly answered.

His seed, the Holy Spirit, this is abinging in Him and He abiding ,dwell, through His Holy Spirit, in us. The regenerative baptism given to all belivers.
"Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God."
Blessings

 

[BobRyan]

The main issue that Jesus, the prophets, and apostles seem to be concerned about is sin. The scriptures go to great lengths to help us understand what it is, how it manifests, the results of it, who can overcome it and how, etc.

What I have found to be the source of almost all divisions/contentions among those who claim to be Christians is on this topic. And that is exactly what we would expect to happen based on the teachings of scripture. The whole history described in the Bible is a story about the continual failure of the human race to achieve success in this area.

There are, however, individual exceptions. Have you noticed that certain people in the history of the world according to the Bible are exceptional in the way the scriptures describe their righteousness as contrasted to the overall situation presented of unrighteousness? What I am getting at is that the biblical standard of what it is to even be a Christian is very high. And the tendency throughout time has been to lower that standard down both in and outside of what passes as Christ's church among men.

With all this in mind, I would like to direct your attention to 1 John 3. Please read this chapter carefully. And then answer the following question.

What is the standard presented here that must be achieved to be considered born-again/regenerated?

Please resist the temptation to bring into consideration anything else outside this chapter until this question is properly answered.

1 John 3:4 "Sin is transgression of the Law"
1 John 2:1 "these things I write that you sin not"

I could literally post the whole chapter, I love 1 John so much, but to answer the OP with scripture as requested.

1 John 3:9 (ESV): No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him; and he cannot keep on sinning, because he has been born of God.

That is the distinguishing mark of those who are born again. Later in the chapter it describes one specific manifestation of sin, murder. Murder being defined as:

1 John 3:15 (ESV): Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

And what is the remedy for murder? Love!

1 John 3:17–18 (ESV): But if anyone has the world’s goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God’s love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

Amen !

 

[St_Worm2]

Please resist the temptation to bring into consideration anything else outside this chapter until this question is properly answered.

Hello again ForAllTruth, thank you for starting this new thread, and for pointing us here with the link in your other thread

I hope that you don't mind me starting with what you said at the end of your OP, because I'm not sure that I'll be able to make a proper comment concerning 1 John 3 unless it is taken in context with the rest of 1 John, as well the rest of the Bible (and there are verb tenses to consider as well, of course).

If I am understanding what you are saying correctly, what you are asking for me/us to do would be very similar to me asking you "what is the standard presented in the verse below that must be followed to become/remain a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ" (and that you must also resist the temptation to consider any other part of the Bible/what you know of God's character, etc., in your analysis, until the question that I asked you is properly answered).

Luke 14
26 If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
​

If I am misunderstanding what you mean in regard to 1 John 3 (which is certainly possible), please point out how I am doing so.

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

 

[ForAllTruth]

Hello again ForAllTruth, thank you for starting this new thread, and for pointing us here with the link in your other thread

I hope that you don't mind me starting with what you said at the end of your OP, because I'm not sure that I'll be able to make a proper comment concerning 1 John 3 unless it is taken in context with the rest of 1 John, as well the rest of the Bible (and there are verb tenses to consider as well, of course).

If I am understanding what you are saying correctly, what you are asking for me/us to do would be very similar to me asking you "what is the standard presented in the verse below that must be followed to become/remain a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ" (and that you must also resist the temptation to consider any other part of the Bible/what you know of God's character, etc., in your analysis, until the question that I asked you is properly answered).

Luke 14
26 If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple.
​

If I am misunderstanding what you mean in regard to 1 John 3 (which is certainly possible), please point out how I am doing so.

Thanks

God bless you!!

--David

I just want us to be honest with what this passage teaches by itself. Maybe later we can expand into other areas.

 

[St_Worm2]

I just want us to be honest with what this passage teaches by itself. Maybe later we can expand into other areas.

Considering the way that some of the things are presented in 1 John 3 (not unlike the Lord's statement in Luke 14:26, in fact), things that (by themselves) stand in stark contrast to/seem to clearly contradict what is said earlier in the same Epistle (for instance), I would think that arriving at a proper exegesis, one that we can, in fact, all agree upon, would be nearly impossible.

We would be left with little more than things like tense and mood considerations to go on. While these are extremely useful, w/o taking the Chapter in context with the rest of the Epistle (at the very least), I don't believe that a consensus about the meaning that God intended for us to have/understand could ever be reached.

I'll follow along for a while to see where this goes, and then join back in if I have a question, or if I think that I may have something useful to add to the discussion.

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--David

 

[fhansen]

The main issue that Jesus, the prophets, and apostles seem to be concerned about is sin. The scriptures go to great lengths to help us understand what it is, how it manifests, the results of it, who can overcome it and how, etc.

What I have found to be the source of almost all divisions/contentions among those who claim to be Christians is on this topic. And that is exactly what we would expect to happen based on the teachings of scripture. The whole history described in the Bible is a story about the continual failure of the human race to achieve success in this area.

There are, however, individual exceptions. Have you noticed that certain people in the history of the world according to the Bible are exceptional in the way the scriptures describe their righteousness as contrasted to the overall situation presented of unrighteousness? What I am getting at is that the biblical standard of what it is to even be a Christian is very high. And the tendency throughout time has been to lower that standard down both in and outside of what passes as Christ's church among men.

With all this in mind, I would like to direct your attention to 1 John 3. Please read this chapter carefully. And then answer the following question.

What is the standard presented here that must be achieved to be considered born-again/regenerated?

Please resist the temptation to bring into consideration anything else outside this chapter until this question is properly answered.

If we sin we don’t know God; we are dead. If we fail to love we are dead.

And love fulfills the law because sin and love are mutually exclusive. A teaching I’m familiar with puts it concisely:
“At the evening of life we shall be judged on our love.”

And we’re exhorted to love and to refrain from sin because love is both a gift, of God’s life in us, and a choice, a daily one.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 22 both Christ and the Jews agreed that
Deut 6:4 Love God with all your heart
Lev 19:18 Love your neighbor as yourself

Form the bedrock foundation of all the Law and the prophets (all of scripture).

So it is no wonder that Christ and Paul appeal to these old testament commandments.

 

[The Liturgist]

The main issue that Jesus, the prophets, and apostles seem to be concerned about is sin. The scriptures go to great lengths to help us understand what it is, how it manifests, the results of it, who can overcome it and how, etc.

What I have found to be the source of almost all divisions/contentions among those who claim to be Christians is on this topic. And that is exactly what we would expect to happen based on the teachings of scripture. The whole history described in the Bible is a story about the continual failure of the human race to achieve success in this area.

There are, however, individual exceptions. Have you noticed that certain people in the history of the world according to the Bible are exceptional in the way the scriptures describe their righteousness as contrasted to the overall situation presented of unrighteousness? What I am getting at is that the biblical standard of what it is to even be a Christian is very high. And the tendency throughout time has been to lower that standard down both in and outside of what passes as Christ's church among men.

With all this in mind, I would like to direct your attention to 1 John 3. Please read this chapter carefully. And then answer the following question.

What is the standard presented here that must be achieved to be considered born-again/regenerated?

Please resist the temptation to bring into consideration anything else outside this chapter until this question is properly answered.

I believe this passage refers to Theosis, the doctrine of salvation in which by which by grace we become what Christ is by nature. Or as St. Athanasius put it, “God became man so man could become god.”

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I believe this passage refers to Theosis, the doctrine of salvation in which by which by grace we become what Christ is by nature. Or as St. Athanasius put it, “God became man so man could become god.”

The saint is perhaps too succinct for some readers. His transition from God to god (in English translation) ought to be obvious but perhaps it is not obvious enough for some. So let's be explicit.

God the Son became man, our Lord Jesus Christ, so that by his death and resurrection and glorification those who are united with him might become as he is in his glorified state, that is to say, as close to God as it is possible for a creature to be, and so we can refer to resurrected and glorified human beings as 'gods' as the Lord Jesus Christ did once when debating with the Pharisees and the scribes.​

 

[ForAllTruth]

Considering the way that some of the things are presented in 1 John 3 (not unlike the Lord's statement in Luke 14:26, in fact), things that (by themselves) stand in stark contrast to/seem to clearly contradict what is said earlier in the same Epistle (for instance), I would think that arriving at a proper exegesis, one that we can, in fact, all agree upon, would be nearly impossible.

We would be left with little more than things like tense and mood considerations to go on. While these are extremely useful, w/o taking the Chapter in context with the rest of the Epistle (at the very least), I don't believe that a consensus about the meaning that God intended for us to have/understand could ever be reached.

I'll follow along for a while to see where this goes, and then join back in if I have a question, or if I think that I may have something useful to add to the discussion.

Thanks!

God bless you!!

--David

I think we can all read the text. I don't find it at all hard to grasp when taken at face value. I also, don't find taking Luke 14:26 at face value an issue either. There certainly is a broad teaching in the Holy Writ about hating the world and the things in the world and those trying to save their life losing it.

In fact, I am so satisfied that at this point that anyone who has attempted to do their best with my initial request saw exactly what was written by the author or 1 John. That we may now see if there is anything in the rest of the letter that would lead to any different conclusions.

There will be difficulty for those who have a tradition that they are so committed to that they can't just believe the plain meaning of the text.

I have studied this very thoroughly and the entire letter and the rest of the Bible puts the standard of legitimately claiming to be a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ so high that the way is very narrow indeed. I would hazard to say even more narrow than almost any church-leader cares to admit to himself or those under his teaching.

 

[ForAllTruth]

Having done this kind of thing before I have anticipated that the following verse will soon come into play.

1 John 1:8

As if there isn't an easy answer to a seeming contradiction.

Many like to selectively cite this verse to try to establish that this side of eternity no one can completely avoid sinning by the grace of God in miraculous fashion. They claim that "have no sin" is the same as "do not sin". Which it isn't. It is as different as having an appetite and eating. One can deny themselves food and still be hungry. Just as one can choose to do what is right against the desires of the flesh.

Some will likely say, "how can you have sin?" Isn't sin something you do? Well, according to the Bible sin is often personified and or presented as something attached to sinners. It is shorthand for having the guilt of having sinned. This is clearly the context since just 2 verses later is 1 John 1:10. The author anticipated this kind of faulty reasoning by writing that verse soon after the earlier one it seems.

This concept is found all over the Bible. For example...

1 Peter 4:1-2

Maybe later we will compile the very long list of verses teaching the same.

 

[timothyu]

This is why the earliest Christians were known as haters of man. They wouldn't support the system.

 

[ForAllTruth]

I believe this passage refers to Theosis, the doctrine of salvation in which by which by grace we become what Christ is by nature. Or as St. Athanasius put it, “God became man so man could become god.”

1 John 4:17

 

[timothyu]

"because as he is, even so are we in this world."

He did not His will but only the will of the Father. He was not self absorbed as unfortunately most of mankind are. By grace we were given a chance to live in the the Kingdom to come, having set aside the 'self' serving ways of man for the 'other' oriented ways of the Kingdom, where one cares for others rather than just self or our own. As He was in this respect so we are to be. that has been the will of the Father since the Garden. His will before our own.

 

[St_Worm2]

I think we can all read the text. I don't find it at all hard to grasp when taken at face value. I also don't find taking Luke 14:26 at face value an issue either. There certainly is a broad teaching in the Holy Writ about hating the world and the things in the world and those trying to save their life losing it.

Hello again ForAllTruth, hating the sinful things of this world (the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and/or the boastful pride of life) is hardly the same thing as "hating" one's parents, spouse and/or children, all of whom the Bible commands us to love and/or honor, yes?

Having done this kind of thing before I have anticipated that the following verse will soon come into play. 1 John 1:8. As if there isn't an easy answer to a seeming contradiction.

Which is why you asked us to interpret 1 John 3 out-of-context (something which I believe is impossible if arriving at a proper exegesis of the Chapter is the intended goal ).

On the other hand, I agree with you that there is any easy answer to this seeming contradiction (between what is said in 1 John 1/1 John 2 and 1 John 3), but I suspect that your "easy" answer and mine will be quite different

This concept is found all over the Bible.

Before I comment further, I have a couple of questions for you about the above (for clarity's sake) if you don't mind.

First, is the "concept" of which you speak the "sinless perfection" of believers who are still living on this side of the grave? If not, what is it?

Second, do you believe that at least some true believers/Christians can sin once they are saved (justified) by God (at least every once in awhile anyway), or do you believe that such a person (a person who 1. claims to be a Christian but 2. continues to sin from time to time) is actually NOT saved?

Thanks for your help

--David