Science vs. Christian

[Yekcidmij]

I do.

I suppose you can then show me where Adam knew Lamech.

In fact the genealogies are very east to follow from Adam to Abraham.

In what way? Obviously it's easy to read names (though the LXX includes an extra Cainan). But when it comes to the numbers it's quite the opposite of straightforward. The genealogies vary markedly across manuscripts and the genealogies of Gen 4-5 are curiously parallel. These facts have still been unaddressed by you, and as you say, any grade school child should be able to at least try to address these facts. So far your assertion is that for some reason you prefer the MT and Ussher's arbitrary chronological preference. But this only begs the questions previously raised.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I suppose you can then show me where Adam knew Lamech.

I said he could have known him because they were both alive at the same time for a brief period of time. You can do a google search, there are lots of genealogies there if you use the image button.

 

[nolidad]

You need to read your Bible. "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth shall pass away, not even one iota, nor one stroke of a letter, shall pass away from the law, until everything should happen." Matthew 15:8. There are around 300,000 letters in the Torah and those letters are made up of around 600,000 pen strokes. So Jesus goes beyond the letter of the law to each and every pen stroke.

The everything should happen was the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus!~

Paul in Galatians tells us the law is not in effect.

Romans tells us Christ is the end of the law!

Hebrews tell us th eold has been dome away with.

Jesus insituted the New Covenant which supercedes the Old (the Mosaic Covenant with its 613 laws)

So do you not eat shellfish?
Not seethe meat in milk?
Where is your beard?
Do younot wear clothes with mixed fabrics? These are all part of teh law!

Do you sacrifice a lamb at Passover?
UNleavened bread?

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

 

[joshua 1 9]

So do you not eat shellfish?

I do not eat shellfish, I do not eat pig meat and my wife was a virgin when I married her. To the best of my ability I follow the law because the law was intended for my benefit to keep me healthy. Although the doctors are actually stricter then Moses on what they ban us from eating. You do not have to follow the advise of your doctor if you want to roll the dice and take a chance on ending up a loser.

I know a group of people that live a high risk lifestyle and they are dropping like flies. They die off at a rate of about one a month. So you can do a risk assessment and decide how long you want to live. IF you want to live a long life then you are going to have to take good care of yourself. If you want to be healthy then you are going to have to eat right and take good care of yourself. Just remember that Paul tells us that a lot of people are sick and a lot of people have died an early death.

Do you sacrifice a lamb at Passover?

Jesus made that sacrifice for us. Jesus said: "It is finished" (τετέλεσται) even before I was born. So the finished work is still doing a work in my life today. Only through the blood of Jesus are we saved. So we need to know how the Law of Moses applies to our life today. We do live in the age of God's Grace.

Romans tells us Christ is the end of the law!

You need to look up the scripture and see what Paul really said. I know lots of people get confused about the teaching of Paul but I can assure you that Paul does not teach that the Grace of God is a license to sin. It is through the Grace of God that we are set free and delivered from sin. 1Cor11:30 "For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep." If Christ forfilled the law then we are to follow the example that He set for us. He lived His life as an example for us to follow. Just as we are to do our best to live our life as an example for others to follow.

 

[nolidad]

I do not eat shellfish, I do not eat pig meat and my wife was a virgin when I married her. To the best of my ability I follow the law because the law was intended for my benefit to keep me healthy. Although the doctors are actually stricter then Moses on what they ban us from eating. You do not have to follow the advise of your doctor if you want to roll the dice and take a chance on ending up a loser.

I know a group of people that live a high risk lifestyle and they are dropping like flies. They die off at a rate of about one a month. So you can do a risk assessment and decide how long you want to live. IF you want to live a long life then you are going to have to take good care of yourself. If you want to be healthy then you are going to have to eat right and take good care of yourself. Just remember that Paul tells us that a lot of people are sick and a lot of people have died an early death.

Well you are free to follow the dietary restrictions of the Mosaic Law if you choose. Just know you are not required to and there is no spiritual benefit or spiritual loss for following or not following- that is a matter of conscience.

Jesus made that sacrifice for us. Jesus said: "It is finished" (τετέλεσται) even before I was born. So the finished work is still doing a work in my life today. Only through the blood of Jesus are we saved. So we need to know how the Law of Moses applies to our life today. We do live in the age of God's Grace.

The Mosaic Law was for Israel while they were a theocracy!
One is not righteous for following it or unrighteous for ignoring it! Jesus fulfilled the whole law and rendered it obsolete! We are under the New covenant- not the Mosaic covenant which was not for gentiles and only temporary!

Galatians 2:
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.

18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Galatians 3:

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.


I do not murder because the Mosaic Law says thou shalt not murder I do not because the New Testament says for me not to commit murder. Same with idolatry, theft, graven images, stealing adultery etc.! Not one of these I obey because it is part of the 613 Mosaic laws given by God, but because they are commands for the church!

 

[nolidad]

You need to look up the scripture and see what Paul really said. I know lots of people get confused about the teaching of Paul but I can assure you that Paul does not teach that the Grace of God is a license to sin

I never said that!

I just quoted Paul in saying that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for them that believe! I did not even imply it is a license ot sin, so I do not know why you threw that in.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I just quoted Paul in saying that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for them that believe!

Yes and that righteousness is doing a work in us today. We are told that Jesus said: "It is finished". Before I was even born Jesus said: "It is finished". So the finished work of Jesus still needs to be at work in me. We are told: "many will be made righteous".

"For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous". Romans 5:19

 

[joshua 1 9]

Well you are free to follow the dietary restrictions of the Mosaic Law if you choose. Just know you are not required to

I am not required to follow dietary restriction, that is indeed a choice. According to my doctor I would be a lot more healthy if I follow dietary restrictions. They are even more strict then the Bible. They even had me attending classes on all of that stuff. Right now the Ornish diet is very popular because of all the research and studies he has done to show the value of following this diet. This not only holds true for heart disease but also cancer and other diseases. Actually the American Cancer Society had a lot of carcinogens listed on their web site. Things that are known to cause cancer that should be avoided if at all possible.

Right now I am working on straightening out my stock portfolio. For example I sold off my Coke stock because I do not want to make money on something that is harmful to people. I plan to sell off my McDonald's stock also at the right time for the same reason. Everything we do should bring honor and glory to God. Jesus was a carpenter and that is very honest work. We can not go wrong building people a home to shelter them from the elements.

 

[joshua 1 9]

The Mosaic Law was for Israel while they were a theocracy!

The Law is for our benefit also. Only we apply the law to our lives today different then they did under the Old Covenant. For example, there is no temple so there are no animal sacrifices. But the teaching is still there and there is still a lesson to be learned from all of this. As Proverbs 3:8 says: Turn away from Evil: "This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones." If we want health then we need to live a healthy lifestyle. We need exercise, diet and stress control.

 

[nolidad]

I am not required to follow dietary restriction, that is indeed a choice. According to my doctor I would be a lot more healthy if I follow dietary restrictions. They are even more strict then the Bible. They even had me attending classes on all of that stuff. Right now the Ornish diet is very popular because of all the research and studies he has done to show the value of following this diet. This not only holds true for heart disease but also cancer and other diseases. Actually the American Cancer Society had a lot of carcinogens listed on their web site. Things that are known to cause cancer that should be avoided if at all possible.

Right now I am working on straightening out my stock portfolio. For example I sold off my Coke stock because I do not want to make money on something that is harmful to people. I plan to sell off my McDonald's stock also at the right time for the same reason. Everything we do should bring honor and glory to God. Jesus was a carpenter and that is very honest work. We can not go wrong building people a home to shelter them from the elements.

I applaud your stances! Just do not judge your brethren if they do not follow such strict diets or if they are blessed to be able to invest they invest in coke and pepsi and ice cream!

The Law is for our benefit also. Only we apply the law to our lives today different then they did under the Old Covenant. For example, there is no temple so there are no animal sacrifices. But the teaching is still there and there is still a lesson to be learned from all of this. As Proverbs 3:8 says: Turn away from Evil: "This will bring health to your body and nourishment to your bones." If we want health then we need to live a healthy lifestyle. We need exercise, diet and stress control.

Yes we can learn things from the Law given to Israel. But our allegiance is to the New Testament Savior! And our life is controlled not by OT law but NT principles.

Just remember Jesus declared all foods clean! Would God do that is there were foods inherently bad for you? NOw I am not talking about how we have processed certain foods etc. but the dietary laws were given to Israel (as well as the way they shaved their beards and what they could wear) for one purpose and one purpose only- so Israel would be a different people from the nations surrounding them

 

[joshua 1 9]

I applaud your stances! Just do not judge your brethren if they do not follow such strict diets or if they are blessed to be able to invest they invest in coke and pepsi and ice cream!

There is a classic book called "What Would Jesus Do". This book does challenge people to live the life that Jesus is calling us to live as an example to others.

People do have health issues that can serve as a warning. I was in a physical therapy program after an operation. The insurance company pay for these programs because a little education can go a long way to prevent future health problems that can cost the insurance company a lot more money then what it cost to educate people to be healthy.

Yes we can learn things from the Law given to Israel. But our allegiance is to the New Testament Savior! And our life is controlled not by OT law but NT principles.

Jesus teaches us: "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." For me you are ignoring the teaching of Jesus if you say we do not have to follow the law as it applies to us today. Even you admit that the law is our teacher to show us the way of righteousness.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16)

Romans 15:4 "For everything that was written in the past was written for our instruction,"

 

[nolidad]

Jesus teaches us: "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." For me you are ignoring the teaching of Jesus if you say we do not have to follow the law as it applies to us today. Even you admit that the law is our teacher to show us the way of righteousness.
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16)

Well everything was accomplished at the cross!

2 Cor. 3:
6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Galatians 3:17
And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.


Galatians 5 King James Version (KJV)
5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Romans 10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

If you wish to obey some or all of teh 613 Mosaic Laws- you are free to do so. No one is bound by them anymore since the death and resurrection of Jesus for our righteousness! Just make sure you do not comjpel anyone to do what you have liberty to do!

 

[joshua 1 9]

If you wish to obey some or all of teh 613 Mosaic Laws- you are free to do so. No one is bound by them

Depends on what you mean by "bound" The law was give for our benefit and well being. This is why David expresses his love for the law. What I know about this I learned from David and that all begin with reading the 119 psalm. But all of the psalms David talks about his love for the law and how the law was given for his benefit. So we have life and health and healing. Paul told Felix in acts 24:14 "I believe everything that is laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,"

To follow the law does not save us but if we have faith in Jesus we will live right before God. Jesus is coming for a Bride that is without spot, blemish or wrinkle. She is washed and cleansed in the Blood of the lamb and her lamp is filled with Oil. IF you are not wearing a wedding garment do not expect that Jesus is coming for you.

We are told that Israel is the friend or the guest at the wedding. John 3:29 "The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete."

Luke 14: "
11 But when the king came in to see the guests, he spotted a man who was not dressed in wedding clothes.12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’

But the man was speechless.

13 Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

 

[nolidad]

Depends on what you mean by "bound" The law was give for our benefit and well being. This is why David expresses his love for the law. What I know about this I learned from David and that all begin with reading the 119 psalm. But all of the psalms David talks about his love for the law and how the law was given for his benefit. So we have life and health and healing. Paul told Felix in acts 24:14 "I believe everything that is laid down by the Law and written in the Prophets,"

To follow the law does not save us but if we have faith in Jesus we will live right before God. Jesus is coming for a Bride that is without spot, blemish or wrinkle. She is washed and cleansed in the Blood of the lamb and her lamp is filled with Oil. IF you are not wearing a wedding garment do not expect that Jesus is coming for you.

We are told that Israel is the friend or the guest at the wedding. John 3:29 "The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete."

Luke 14: "
11 But when the king came in to see the guests, he spotted a man who was not dressed in wedding clothes.12‘Friend,’ he asked, ‘how did you get in here without wedding clothes?’

But the man was speechless.

13 Then the king told the servants, ‘Tie him hand and foot and throw him outside into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”

By bound I mean compelled to bey the 613 Mosaic Laws including the ten which paul said is a ministration of death. The commands of the NT are there for us to show that what God has wrought inwardly is worked out outwardly.

Once again I do not commit adultery because the ten commandments says not to- but because it is a command for the church!

It is interesting that only 9 of the ten commandments are carried over to the church! We have no Sabbath Day! We have entered into His eternal Sabbath! Jesus declared all foods clean now! so if one wishes to eat shellfish- he has violated no law nor committed even the tiniest offense! If we wear mixed fabric clothing- we are not ceremonially defiled anymore so we can wear cotton/polyester blends.

If one wears a beard- He doesn't have to round it if they choose, or we do not have to circumcise our young on the eighth day!

Remember when Paul said all scriptures are give... Israel had not even canonized their OT yet! They had many writings! The OT books were held at Jesus time as above the rest, but Israel had not called them sacred scripture yet! That didn't happen till centuries later!

 

[joshua 1 9]

Once again I do not commit adultery because the ten commandments says not to- but because it is a command for the church!

Jesus said: "17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5)

It looks to me like we are to follow all of the commandments and we are to teach others to do the same. We are to live our life as as example for others. We do the best we can. My wife said to do our best and then we can trust the rest to God. Jesus said: "46 Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’but not do what I say? " (Luke 6:46) To many people think that grace is a license to sin and that is just not true. God calls us to repentance and to live a life of sanctification and holiness before Him. Psalm 141:2 "May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice." We can learn a lot from David. He is an example of a man wanting to know the Heart of God. Everything in the Bible has been given to us today for a reason: "[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2Timothy3)

The Torah contains 600,000 pen stokes that make up all the letters in the hebrew. Every jot every pen stroke has meaning and they are to be applied to our life. We are to do all we can to set a right example for others. Do our best and then trust the rest to God.

 

[nolidad]

It looks to me like we are to follow all of the commandments and we are to teach others to do the same. We are to live our life as as example for others. We do the best we can. My wife said to do our best and then we can trust the rest to God. Jesus said: "46 Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’but not do what I say? " (Luke 6:46) To many people think that grace is a license to sin and that is just not true. God calls us to repentance and to live a life of sanctification and holiness before Him. Psalm 141:2 "May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice." We can learn a lot from David. He is an example of a man wanting to know the Heart of God. Everything in the Bible has been given to us today for a reason: "[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: [17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works." (2Timothy3)

The Torah contains 600,000 pen stokes that make up all the letters in the hebrew. Every jot every pen stroke has meaning and they are to be applied to our life. We are to do all we can to set a right example for others. Do our best and then trust the rest to God.

So obey all 613 Mosaic Commands! See what that will get you!

If your children are rebellious- you are commanded to take them outside the town and stone them!

Make sure you don't eat a cheeseburg for you may eat meat seethed in its mothers milk!

Don't work on saturdays

Don't mix fabrics etc.etc.etc.

It will not make you closer to God!

Jesus said: "17Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. 18 For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 5)

Joshua! Guess what? Jesus fulfilled them all! Even the one that says the soul that sinneth shall die. He became our sin and died as our sin! He accomplished it all!

Now read Paul and learn!

Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
Galatians 3:25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

The Mosaic Law had 613 commands.

The life of faith in Christ has 1008 commands.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The thing about science is what is scientific fact changes year to year. The bible or any religion for that matter is a matter of faith not fact. But the thing is science also gives some basis to a higher power. If you look at mathematical percentages the match says most likely there is some form of creator you can call it god or aliens but something created us.
Scientist say the universe evolved over billions of years.
Christians think the universe formed in 6 to 7 thousand years

Look at the first two lines of Genesis

Genesis
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

It does not say when he created so it could have been over billions of years. He could of created the earth and dinosaurs and wiped them out to make room for humans.

Everyone likes arguing and fighting over beliefs when the bible gives room for science and science gives room for the bible.

That bolded sentence, the first one, at least is true.

Most of the rest is subject to being proven or disproven, or rather to being believed in error or the truth being believed as revealed by Yahweh, if He Permits, as He Pleases.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You are avoiding simple answers as much as possible. Not a good sign.

Do you believe that the Bible was 100% dictated or do you believe that human writers had a word in it?

Do you believe that the Bible is 100% preserved, so that no original word is lost?

Rather,
what does Yahweh Himself Reveal ? (In His Word, and Ruah)
Until granted to them by the Father Creator from heaven, even the Apostles did not KNOW the TRUTH.
So also today, for everyone.

 

[The Barbarian]

God also reveals His work in the world, as St. Paul tells us.

Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

Science does not contradict His word. How could it? The creation is His doing.

 

[MrsFoundit]

Science does not contradict His word. How could it? The creation is His doing.

Science lacks infallibility. So does our ability to understand His word.