Science saved my soul

[Michael]

Also worth noting, your last bit about knowing where I am coming from because you have been there yourself, is exactly what I am talking about. You, taking your experiences, and giving your opinion on them. It's what Mr Berry did.

You're right. I probably should have said "I've walked in the shoes of an atheist's perspective'. Your experience in life may have been quite different from mine, but I have been a self professed 'atheist' in my life.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

You're right. I probably should have said "I've walked in the shoes of an atheist's perspective'. Your experience in life may have been quite different from mine, but I have been a self professed 'atheist' in my life.

I don't know what that means to be a self professed atheist. You're still talking about atheism as if it is some religion.

 

[Michael]

I don't know what that means to be a self professed atheist. You're still talking about atheism as if it is some religion.

It is a philosophical mindset, a rose colored set of glasses if you will. I didn't say it was a religion however.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

It is a philosophical mindset, a rose colored set of glasses if you will. I didn't say it was a religion however.

I wasn't aware atheism was a philosophical mindset either.

 

[Michael]

I would say that strong atheism is a form of "religion" in the sense that it's an act of faith in a final outcome. That's not the case with weak atheism.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

I would say that strong atheism is a form of "religion" in the sense that it's an act of faith in a final outcome. That's not the case with weak atheism.

This is gibberish to me. I wasn't aware I believed in some "final outcome" or had faith of any kind. Please, tell me more about what I believe.

 

[Michael]

I wasn't aware atheism was a philosophical mindset either.

Really? How would you go about judging the value of any evidence, say for instance near death experiences, without evoking a philosophical mindset?

 

[Michael]

This is gibberish to me. I wasn't aware I believed in some "final outcome" or had faith of any kind. Please, tell me more about what I believe.

I think you missed the fact that I specifically differentiated between strong and weak atheism.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

Really? How would you go about judging the value of any evidence, say for instance near death experiences, without evoking a philosophical mindset?

With science.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

I think you missed the fact that I specifically differentiated between strong and weak atheism.

That's still gibberish. I don't know what strong or weak means in that context.

 

[Michael]

That's still gibberish. I don't know what strong or weak means in that context.

A "strong atheist" is typically defined as someone that "believes" that God does not exist.

A "weak atheist" is typically defined as someone that "lacks beliefs" in God, but holds no belief that God does not exist.

I suspect from your responses that you fall into the later category.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

A "strong atheist" is typically defined as someone that "believes" that God does not exist.

A "weak atheist" is typically defined as someone that "lacks beliefs" in God, but holds no belief that God does not exist.

I suspect from your responses that you fall into the later category.

That's because they are the same thing. If you lack a belief in something, do you believe it exists?

 

[Michael]

That's because they are the same thing. If you lack a belief in something, do you believe it exists?

That depends. Maybe to you they are the same thing, but not necessarily to everyone. One can have/hold a "strong opinion/belief" that God does not exist. One can also simply have no firm opinion one way or the other. It's probably a question of degrees in terms of having a strong or weak opinion in the matter.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

That depends. Maybe to you they are the same thing, but not necessarily to everyone. One can have/hold a "strong opinion/belief" that God does not exist. One can also simply have no firm opinion one way or the other. It's probably a question of degrees in terms of having a strong or weak opinion in the matter.

If you lack a belief in something, then you must necessarily believe it does not exist. Can you think of something you lack a belief exists but that you believe exists?

 

[essentialsaltes]

That's because they are the same thing. If you lack a belief in something, do you believe it exists?

Many atheists (and others) see a significant difference between weak and strong atheism. Some of them (not me) will fight to the death to avoid being lumped together.

Compare: some random dude comes up to you and says "Do you believe I have fewer than three jelly-beans in my hand?"

If you answer "No" (because you have no possible evidence to believe such a thing) this does not automatically mean you believe he has three or more jelly-beans in his hand.
You lack a belief about the number of jelly beans in his hand.

Theists believe one or more gods exist.
Weak atheists lack a belief in the existence (or nonexistence) of gods.
Strong atheists believe gods do not exist.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

Many atheists (and others) see a significant difference between weak and strong atheism. Some of them (not me) will fight to the death to avoid being lumped together.

Compare: some random dude comes up to you and says "Do you believe I have fewer than three jelly-beans in my hand?"

If you answer "No" (because you have no possible evidence to believe such a thing) this does not automatically mean you believe he has three or more jelly-beans in his hand.
You lack a belief about the number of jelly beans in his hand.

Theists believe one or more gods exist.
Weak atheists lack a belief in the existence (or nonexistence) of gods.
Strong atheists believe gods do not exist.

If I say 'no' to that question, then it would be correct for me to say that I also don't believe he has 3 jelly beans in his hand. Which is why for such a question, I'd just say "I don't know because you haven't given me any reason to even make a guess."

The answer to the question of "Do you believe god exists?" that is "No. I lack a belief in a god" is the same as "No. I do not believe god exists."

I feel like trying to split things up is quite pointless. Perhaps people mean agnostic when they say "weak atheist"?

In any event, what point are you trying to prove Michael?

 

[Michael]

In any event, what point are you trying to prove Michael?

Me? Nothing particular in this thread. I just liked the first five minutes of your video quite a bit, so I commented on it. From there the conversation took on a life of it's own.

 

[essentialsaltes]

"No. I lack a belief in a god" is the same as "No. I do not believe god exists."

Correct, but those are different from "No. I believe gods don't exist." (strong atheism)

 

[Split Rock]

I feel like trying to split things up is quite pointless. Perhaps people mean agnostic when they say "weak atheist"?

These terms are usually seen as synonymous, yes. I consider myself an agnostic because I do not know if there is a god or not. I do tend to lean toward the possiblility of a deistic god, rather than the personal one Christians believe in. Frankly, I do not believe the question can be answered by us at this time.

 

[GoldenBoy89]

I prefer the line "The Kingdom of Heaven is found within". It's probably the most important first step in developing a relationship with God IMO.

I actually agree with this. I don't agree that Christians have any better understanding of this, though. Not any better than any other human in existence. Atheists included.