Science saved my soul

[TheBeardedDude]

The first five minutes we all about "spacetime" and the structures contained therein. I actually stopped watching as soon as it turned into an evangelical atheistic rant.

Okay, then why do you feel the need to comment on the video when the point of the video is not contained fully within the first 5 minutes?

 

[Michael]

Who is projecting? This isn't psych 101. No one is trying to take your experiences and reinterpret them for you. It's a perspective and an opinion.

Sure but it's an entirely *subjective* option that is born of complete ignorance in terms of what those experiences might even be. He didn't even bother asking me anything about them, he simply "guessed" based upon his own preconceived prejudices. Why then should I even care what he thinks?

You aren't actually under the delusion that you're going to convert *me* are you?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Sure but it's an entirely *subjective* option that is born of complete ignorance in terms of what those experiences might even be. He didn't even bother asking me anything about them, he simply "guessed" based upon his own preconceived prejudices. Why then should I even care what he thinks?

You aren't actually under the delusion that you're going to convert *me* are you?

I did ask you to explain how your relationship with god differs from a relationship with your conscience. I don't know whether you saw the question or not.

 

[Michael]

Okay, then why do you feel the need to comment on the video when the point of the video is not contained fully within the first 5 minutes?

I commented because I actually liked the first five minutes that I watched, and I agreed with his viewpoints. I too feel like my 'soul was saved' by science, but for *entirely* different reasons. I also feel like science saved my soul from atheism as well. It's all a matter of perspective.

 

[Michael]

I did ask you to explain how your relationship with god differs from a relationship with your conscience. I don't know whether you saw the question or not.

Evidently not. Sorry then for my comment about not asking first. Even still you did give your opinions without any comments from me.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

Sure but it's an entirely *subjective* option that is born of complete ignorance in terms of what those experiences might even be. He didn't even bother asking me anything about them, he simply "guessed" based upon his own preconceived prejudices. Why then should I even care what he thinks?

You aren't actually under the delusion that you're going to convert *me* are you?

You ever think that he isn't trying to negate or devalue your experiences and that instead, he is giving the opinion of his experiences?

I've no intentions of trying to deconvert you or convert you or whatever. I do however live under the delusion that you would give up your attempts at a psych 101 analysis of everything someone posts.

 

[Michael]

You ever think that he isn't trying to negate or devalue your experiences and that instead, he is giving the opinion of his experiences?

I don't honestly think I could do my "experiences" justice in words by the way. It's something you simply have to experience for yourself. In the final analysis however, it really doesn't matter what he, or you, or anyone else thinks about my experiences, they weren't there, and they didn't have them. All they can then do is "speculate" based upon their current philosophical headset. That's fine and all, but it's not likely to have any effect on how I feel about my own experiences in life.

I've no intentions of trying to deconvert you or convert you or whatever. I do however live under the delusion that you would give up your attempts at a psych 101 analysis of everything someone posts.

I'm not the one trying to tell you what your personal experiences might be.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Evidently not. Sorry then for my comment about not asking first. Even still you did give your opinions without any comments from me.

That is because I have never heard anyone describe the internal aspect of their relationship with god as anything other than something that can be interpreted as a relationship with their own conscience - and there are perfectly good reasons for this.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

I commented because I actually liked the first five minutes that I watched, and I agreed with his viewpoints. I too feel like my 'soul was saved' by science, but for *entirely* different reasons. I also feel like science saved my soul from atheism as well. It's all a matter of perspective.

Perspective or background?

 

[Michael]

Perspective or background?

Probably both.

 

[Michael]

That is because I have never heard anyone describe the internal aspect of their relationship with god as anything other than something that can be interpreted as a relationship with their own conscience - and there are perfectly good reasons for this.

I've learned over the years that just about anything can be "interpreted' in a variety of subjective ways. You're entitled to your own opinions like everyone else, but then again, so am I.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

I don't honestly think I could do my "experiences" justice in words by the way. It's something you simply have to experience for yourself. In the final analysis however, it really doesn't matter what he, or you, or anyone else thinks about my experiences, they weren't there, and they didn't have them. All they can then do is "speculate" based upon their current philosophical headset. That's fine and all, but it's not likely to have any effect on how I feel about my own experiences in life.

I'm not the one trying to tell you what your personal experiences might be.

You are wrong in saying that it doesn't matter what we think of these experiences. Society puts a very high value on them and on communicating them to others. If you've had an experience that actually proves god, what would that make me for not asking? What would that make you for not telling?

And no one is speculating on your experiences anyways, you've not told us any. We are free however to speculate on our own.

And who tried telling you what your personal experiences were? Are you saying you lack a conscience?

 

[Mr Strawberry]

I've learned over the years that just about anything can be "interpreted' in a variety of subjective ways. You're entitled to your own opinions like everyone else, but then again, so am I.

Fine. But the next time you commune with your god, think about it and see if you aren't actually feeling around inside yourself for a little voice telling you what is right and wrong, commonly known as your conscience.

 

[Michael]

Fine. But the next time you commune with your god, think about it and see if you aren't actually feeling around inside yourself for a little voice telling you what is right and wrong, commonly known as your conscience.

Believe me when I tell you that the first few times that anything happened to me, I did exactly that. It took a long time, and a lot of effort (learning to meditate) before I could even begin to distinguish between my own thoughts and feelings, and anything else.

My 'conscience' is what made me give my early "religion' that included concepts like perpetual torment for finite sin.

 

[Justatruthseeker]

My 'conscience' is what made me give my early "religion' that included concepts like perpetual torment for finite sin.

The biggest fallacy of Christendom. Such beliefs belittle the price paid in blood, as such belief means the righteous and unrighteous both receive the same gift of eternal life.

 

[Michael]

You are wrong in saying that it doesn't matter what we think of these experiences. Society puts a very high value on them and on communicating them to others.

Why should I care what you or anyone else in society thinks about *my* personal experiences? If others want to share their experience with me, fine, but that's not something I typically do.

If you've had an experience that actually proves god, what would that make me for not asking? What would that make you for not telling?

I don't personally believe that it's possible to 'prove' anything. It's possible to provide 'evidence for' something, but it's not possible to "prove" anything IMO. The evidence itself can even be 'subjective' in some cases. Is there actually any evidence for SUSY theory? You aren't suggesting that we don't check out the rest of the energy spectrum that LHC can look at in 2015 are you?

And no one is speculating on your experiences anyways, you've not told us any. We are free however to speculate on our own.

Of course you are free to speculate. Then again, *other peoples* opinions about my own experiences aren't all that meaningful to me personally. The danger of your speculation however is that it's based upon a 'lack of' experience, not an actual experience. It's like *assuming* that other people didn't "really" see a "kangaroo" because you've personally never seen one in real life.

And who tried telling you what your personal experiences were? Are you saying you lack a conscience?

I'm saying that until I learned to meditate and quiet my own mind, quiet my own thoughts and quiet my own feelings, it was impossible for even me to tell what was an *internal* thought/feeling process, and what wasn't.

I understand where you're coming from because I've personally been there myself, but I can't go back to a mindset that no longer works for me. I can't go back to atheism anymore than I could go back to believing in the concept of infinite punishment for finite sin. There's just no way to go backwards like that for me at this point in my life.

 

[Mr Strawberry]

Believe me when I tell you that the first few times that anything happened to me, I did exactly that. It took a long time, and a lot of effort (learning to meditate) before I could even begin to distinguish between my own thoughts and feelings, and anything else.

Well, without further explanation it is impossible to get an idea of what it is you are interpreting during meditation as something that isn't your own thoughts and feelings. Maybe if you give an indication of how you decide yourself that what you are experiencing isn't a product of your own mind?

My 'conscience' is what made me give my early "religion' that included concepts like perpetual torment for finite sin.

It is interesting that it was your conscience that led you away from your early religious ideas, and thus presumably towards your present ones.

 

[TheBeardedDude]

Why should I care what you or anyone else in society thinks about *my* personal experiences? If others want to share their experience with me, fine, but that's not something I typically do.



I don't personally believe that it's possible to 'prove' anything. It's possible to provide 'evidence for' something, but it's not possible to "prove" anything IMO. The evidence itself can even be 'subjective' in some cases. Is there actually any evidence for SUSY theory? You aren't suggesting that we don't check out the rest of the energy spectrum that LHC can look at in 2015 are you?



Of course you are free to speculate. Then again, *other peoples* opinions about my own experiences aren't all that meaningful to me personally. The danger of your speculation however is that it's based upon a 'lack of' experience, not an actual experience. It's like *assuming* that other people didn't "really" see a "kangaroo" because you've personally never seen one in real life.



I'm saying that until I learned to meditate and quiet my own mind, quiet my own thoughts and quiet my own feelings, it was impossible for even me to tell what was an *internal* thought/feeling process, and what wasn't.

I understand where you're coming from because I've personally been there myself, but I can't go back to a mindset that no longer works for me. I can't go back to atheism anymore than I could go back to believing in the concept of infinite punishment for finite sin. There's just no way to go backwards like that for me at this point in my life.

You should care because they are the defining line between sane and insane. If I say I had a personal experience where I got to go to a Pittsburgh Steelers preseason game, no one is going to think twice. But if I say I was abducted by aliens and probed, society will look at that a bit differently.

I don't disagree with saying that nothing can be proven (outside of mathematics). But I would say that evidence that demonstrates a possibility or a plausibility that would make it perverse not to believe, is evidence that should be presented by someone with a moral conscience.

Of course you are fair in saying that your interpretation of your experience is more important to you than that of someone else. But you can't learn anything if all you do is shut other people's opinions and interpretations down.

I'm not sure what you mean about atheism providing an infinite punishment for a finite sin. Wouldn't that be exactly what hell is? What do you think the equivalent is for not believing in that?

 

[TheBeardedDude]

Also worth noting, your last bit about knowing where I am coming from because you have been there yourself, is exactly what I am talking about. You, taking your experiences, and giving your opinion on them. It's what Mr Berry did.

 

[Michael]

Well, without further explanation it is impossible to get an idea of what it is you are interpreting during meditation as something that isn't your own thoughts and feelings. Maybe if you give an indication of how you decide yourself that what you are experiencing isn't a product of your own mind?

Like I said, I doubt that I could even begin to do the experiences of my life justice in words. It's just something you'll have to do for yourself or not. Nothing I might say about my experiences is likely to change your opinions IMO.

It is interesting that it was your conscience that led you away from your early religious ideas, and thus presumably towards your present ones.

True on both points.