Scapegoat

[mmksparbud]

the scapegoat is for atonement, does not matter how much you want it to be Satan it cannot be or Satan has part in our atonement.

And of course the high priest is referring to Jesus as He is the High priest and the sacrifice.

What you are saying now is the high priest is neither goat which leads to the conclusion that Jesus did not die for our sins.

You are wrong here mmk, but like another poster even when shown via a dictionary the meaning of a word refused to believe that was the meaning of the word.

So go ahead and believe Satan has part in our atonement if you must but it is unscriptural and profanes the very sacrifice itself.

Jesus died for our sins, His blood cleanses us from sin ---SATAN WILL BE BLAMED FOR THEM-- he will suffer for everyone's sins on judgement day. That makes the saved freed from their sins. The lost will pay for their sins on judgement day, they will suffer "according to their works" Satan will suffer for their sins also! Or did you think he gets off free? You go right ahead and think he doesn't. This isn't rocket science. Jesus took those sins and paid the price for everyone with His own blood----on judgement day, He will place those sins on Satan and he will suffer for them, and when he dies---all sin will dies with him for he is the father of it. Jesus became sin at the cross for us!!! He bore all those sins--thus God, the Father withdrew for He can not look upon sin--and Jesus cried out "Why have you forsaken me?" Jesus took all those sins---and the wages of sin is death. Where did those sins go?
Jesus took them upon Himself---just as the slain goat did. Jesus has them, now as High Priest, He takes those and puts them right where they belong--on the head of Satan the father of them!! That is what the sanctuary service portrays. He is Azazel! Suffering and death will be his reward.
You want to believe what your pastors tell you--fine--it is not based on what the sanctuary service portrays.
Now--it is your turn to say my view is unbiblical, I will then say yes it is and then we can go back and forth until Jesus comes and He settles the matter or we can go to our separate corners and get back to life. Which is what I am going to do--I've got 6 loaves of sourdough bread to make!! You are welcome to have the last word. Bye!

 

[Pneuma3]

If these goats are to represent Christ’s atoning sacrifice (which they do) why are they both or either not slowly tortured to death?

Dead is dead, does it matter how barbaric that death is. Where the ones the tower fell on somehow less dead then someone who get shot today?

You said this: Jesus Christ, he who was made sin for us who knew no sin. In other words Jesus became humanities azazel.

What does Christ becoming “sin” mean to you? Did Christ become a sinner? Did Christ become an intangible object of “sin”?

You answered your own question below.

If you go to the NIV there is an alternative translation for at the bottom where “sin offering” is given as an alternative to “being made sin” and we all know Christ was a “sin offering”, so what support is there for that translation?

Paul being a scholar of the Torah, used a Hebraism. In this case, the Hebrew word for "sin" was also used to mean "sin offering" (see the Hebrew word: chatta'ath), and thus to be "made sin" was a Hebrew way of saying "made a sin offering". the NASB cross-references to Romans 8:3 which uses "sin offering" in a similar text as 2 Corinthians 5:21

it was because of our sins He died.

You said: “being one with God is the meaning of atonement”, so where do you find that definition given in scripture?

What do you see as the relationship between atonement and being forgiven?

Look up the original meaning of atonement, it meant at-one-ment which according to the Jews means

The atonement procured by Yom Kippur is loftier even than that obtained through repentance, for on this day Jew and G‑d are absolutely one. The quintessence of the Jew blazes forth, uniting with his G‑d to reveal a bond untouchable by sin.

Jew and G-d Alone - Yom Kippur

Is God the one being moved toward man or is man being moved toward God through atonement?

The prodigal son moved towards his father and his father went out to meet him.

People try to show how all these atonement activities in Lev. 16 are being at least partially like what Christ did and they are, but can we show how these “animals” were representing “sinful humans”? To use Lev. 16 to support the idea: “Christ is our penal substitution”, you need to show the animals were to be penal substitutions for humans in Lev 16?

We can see how the scapegoat is like Christ carrying the guilt of sin outside the city and away from humans, but how is the goat taking my place?

You are looking at it backwards. it is not the shadow that is important but the one who casts the shadow. All these sacrificial laws are a shadow of the reality in Christ. Thus in Christ we can understand the shadow in the OT.

We can see the similarities between the sin sacrifice goat and Christ both are an atonement sacrifice, but how is the sacrificed goat like sinful humans?

same answer as above. You need to look at the reality to understand the shadow, not the shadow to understand the reality.

The slaughter of animals by the priest was the most humane way of killing an animal at the time, but if they are taking sinful man’s punishment they would at least have to be slowly tortured to death.

Why? does the shadow depict the reality clearly, or is it in shadow?

The Jews of the time could appreciate the scape goat symbolically carrying their guilt away allow them to but that guilt behind them, but how was that a penal substitution for them (the goat was set free).

Yom Kippur, then, is a day when no external factors exist, when only the quintessence of the Jew shines forth. Teshuvah can eradicate sin and the blemishes in the soul; Yom Kippur transcends the entire concept of sin and repentance — and therefore brings an atonement loftier than at any other time.

Jew and G-d Alone - Yom Kippur

The high priest can be easily seen as a substitute for the sinner, but the priest is not a penal substitute?

hence the two goats.

 

[Pneuma3]

Jesus died for our sins, His blood cleanses us from sin ---SATAN WILL BE BLAMED FOR THEM-- he will suffer for everyone's sins on judgement day. That makes the saved freed from their sins. The lost will pay for their sins on judgement day, they will suffer "according to their works" Satan will suffer for their sins also! Or did you think he gets off free? You go right ahead and think he doesn't. This isn't rocket science. Jesus took those sins and paid the price for everyone with His own blood----on judgement day, He will place those sins on Satan and he will suffer for them, and when he dies---all sin will dies with him for he is the father of it. Jesus became sin at the cross for us!!! He bore all those sins--thus God, the Father withdrew for He can not look upon sin--and Jesus cried out "Why have you forsaken me?" Jesus took all those sins---and the wages of sin is death. Where did those sins go?
Jesus took them upon Himself---just as the slain goat did. Jesus has them, now as High Priest, He takes those and puts them right where they belong--on the head of Satan the father of them!! That is what the sanctuary service portrays. He is Azazel! Suffering and death will be his reward.
You want to believe what your pastors tell you--fine--it is not based on what the sanctuary service portrays.
Now--it is your turn to say my view is unbiblical, I will then say yes it is and then we can go back and forth until Jesus comes and He settles the matter or we can go to our separate corners and get back to life. Which is what I am going to do--I've got 6 loaves of sourdough bread to make!! You are welcome to have the last word. Bye!

I don't need to say it is unbiblical this post prove it is.

 

[mmksparbud]

I don't need to say it is unbiblical this post prove it is.

Do you not believe that Jesus is our High Priest? If you do, then that is what the High Priest did--put the sins of the slain goat on the live goat--and that is what Jesus will be doing, doesn't matter if you believe it or not--that is what He will do. You saying it isn't biblical, doesn't alter the fact that this is exactly what scripture says!

OOOppppsss---I forgot--you get the last word--sorry!

 

[Pneuma3]

Do you not believe that Jesus is our High Priest? If you do, then that is what the High Priest did--put the sins of the slain goat on the live goat--and that is what Jesus will be doing, doesn't matter if you believe it or not--that is what He will do. You saying it isn't biblical, doesn't alter the fact that this is exactly what scripture says!

OOOppppsss---I forgot--you get the last word--sorry!

You simply have no idea of Yom kipper. do yourself a favor and look into it.

 

[bling]

mistake

 

[bling]

Dead is dead, does it matter how barbaric that death is. Where the ones the tower fell on somehow less dead then someone who get shot today?

Why was Jesus cruelly tortured, humiliated and murdered, because I see that as hugely significant and needed over just dying?

it was because of our sins He died.

My answer was “sin offering”, so is that what you agree with?

Look up the original meaning of atonement, it meant at-one-ment which according to the Jews means

The atonement procured by Yom Kippur is loftier even than that obtained through repentance, for on this day Jew and G‑d are absolutely one. The quintessence of the Jew blazes forth, uniting with his G‑d to reveal a bond untouchable by sin.

Jew and G-d Alone - Yom Kippur

Breaking down the English word for “atonement” does not give us how the Jews were using καταλλαγή, you can at least look up https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/atonement/ to get a better alternative understanding.

The “biggest” issue is the people did not follow the law to the “letter”, so Yom Kippur did not accomplish much.

The Jews did make sin offerings for minor (unintentional) sins daily, so those sins were taken care of, but sins against God directly intentionally breaking God’s law was to result in swift death or banishment, depending on which Law was broken. The Jews were not doing these punishments, since all were guilty, so all mature adults would have been banished or killed. The Yom-Kippur sacrifices did nothing for these sins, so the people could not be “one” with God.

The prodigal son moved towards his father and his father went out to meet him.

God is literally at everyone’s elbow, so all that is needed is a turning of the heart.

You are looking at it backwards. it is not the shadow that is important but the one who casts the shadow. All these sacrificial laws are a shadow of the reality in Christ. Thus in Christ we can understand the shadow in the OT.

Very good!

 

[Pneuma3]

Why was Jesus cruelly tortured, humiliated and murdered, because I see that as hugely significant and needed over just dying?

and that significance is?

My answer was “sin offering”, so is that what you agree with?

yes as the high priest and two goats show.

Breaking down the English word for “atonement” does not give us how the Jews were using καταλλαγή, you can at least look up https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/atonement/ to get a better alternative understanding.

The “biggest” issue is the people did not follow the law to the “letter”, so Yom Kippur did not accomplish much.

The Jews did make sin offerings for minor (unintentional) sins daily, so those sins were taken care of, but sins against God directly intentionally breaking God’s law was to result in swift death or banishment, depending on which Law was broken. The Jews were not doing these punishments, since all were guilty, so all mature adults would have been banished or killed. The Yom-Kippur sacrifices did nothing for these sins, so the people could not be “one” with God.

eek gad that is like saying the atonement of Jesus Christ did not do much.

God is literally at everyone’s elbow, so all that is needed is a turning of the heart.

 

[bling]

and that significance is?

This is all being done as a “gift” to you (for you, personally), this torture happened this way because you personally sinned (because of you), and this makes the ransom payment huge.

The first thing to think about is: what I personally would “lose out on” if Christ had swiftly died by a sword entering Jerusalem and there were no prophecies of a suffering Messiah?

God is always “just” and righteous, but Ro. 3:25 does say it is only after the cross and with the cross: “He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because: “in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”

What was not seen (demonstrated) prior to the cross was God’s righteousness in the fairly/justly lovingly “punishing” (disciplining) the repentant and forgiven sinner. You can see some of the punishment and know hell awaits the unrepentant sinner, but those forgiven prior to the cross did not experience being crucified with Christ (fair/just loving discipline). Christ satisfy this need for God to demonstrate His righteousness with the cross.

Those prior to the cross, those not accepting what Christ did, and those not allowing themselves to be crucified “with Christ” will not receive the fair/just loving disciplining God has provide with Christ being tortured (you are empathetically crucified with Christ and receive all the benefits of being disciplined).

eek gad that is like saying the atonement of Jesus Christ did not do much.

Christ is not referred to as the whole atonement process, but He is the atonement sacrifice, which I explained above.

When you talk to the unbeliever are you trying to convince them of:

A book being right?

A philosophy?

A Church to attend?

Christ and Him Crucified (the ransom payment)?

You are trying to convince them to accept “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” which is the ransom payment and if he/she does accept a child is freed to enter the Kingdom with God (the only way the child can enter the kingdom) and be disciplined by being crucified with Christ.

 

[Pneuma3]

This is all being done as a “gift” to you (for you, personally), this torture happened this way because you personally sinned (because of you), and this makes the ransom payment huge.

The first thing to think about is: what I personally would “lose out on” if Christ had swiftly died by a sword entering Jerusalem and there were no prophecies of a suffering Messiah?

God is always “just” and righteous, but Ro. 3:25 does say it is only after the cross and with the cross: “He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because: “in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished”

What was not seen (demonstrated) prior to the cross was God’s righteousness in the fairly/justly lovingly “punishing” (disciplining) the repentant and forgiven sinner. You can see some of the punishment and know hell awaits the unrepentant sinner, but those forgiven prior to the cross did not experience being crucified with Christ (fair/just loving discipline). Christ satisfy this need for God to demonstrate His righteousness with the cross.

Those prior to the cross, those not accepting what Christ did, and those not allowing themselves to be crucified “with Christ” will not receive the fair/just loving disciplining God has provide with Christ being tortured (you are empathetically crucified with Christ and receive all the benefits of being disciplined).

The cross is not some stake Jesus was nailed to, but the LIFE he lived of continual dying to self, not my will but thine be done. That is why we are told to take up OUR cross and follow Him.

Christ is not referred to as the whole atonement process, but He is the atonement sacrifice, which I explained above.

When you talk to the unbeliever are you trying to convince them of:

A book being right?

A philosophy?

A Church to attend?

Christ and Him Crucified (the ransom payment)?

You are trying to convince them to accept “Jesus Christ and Him crucified” which is the ransom payment and if he/she does accept a child is freed to enter the Kingdom with God (the only way the child can enter the kingdom) and be disciplined by being crucified with Christ.

Yes He is the whole atonement for scripture testifies he is not only the atonement for our sins but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

I don't try to convince the unbeliever of anything. I tell them this they have already been reconciled via Jesus death and are to be saved by His LIFE.

Why preach the gospel at all?


Without a doubt this is one of the most frequent question asked of me, everywhere I post I come across this question.


Here is my answer to this question


For me the reason Jesus was sent and the reason Jesus sends us is to free people through Him from sin and death. Salvation is not complete just because one believes Jesus died for them. Believing is only the starting point on our journey toward full salvation, for we are reconciled by His death, but saved by His life.

All men everywhere are already reconciled by His death, this is a done deal because He died 2000 years ago for all men's reconciliation and mans belief or unbelief CANNOT change this fact. If someone does not believe Jesus died for then simply does not change the fact that He did.

So then all men everywhere have already been reconciled, but not all men are yet saved from sin and death.


Therefore Jesus send us out in order to proclaim His salvation by His LIFE.
His death reconciled all men, but His LIFE is what saves all men, this salvation is not a one time deal as such, but is a long process of walking in His LIFE and forsaking our own. Taking up the cross and following Him and enduring unto the end that we might be saved.


Thus we are told to proclaim His death and therefore His reconciliation for all men as a FACT that cannot be disputed , and we are to do this so that the entire world can have the same hope in His LIFE that we to have. Thus it is not by His death that sin and death are defeated but by His LIFE.

When we witness about that which Jesus done, we are first to tell all men that they have been reconciled because of His death, this fact breathes hope into the world that God does indeed love them. Then after people become aware of the fact of this reconciliation by His death we are to proclaim His resurrection. And it is because of the fact that He was resurrected OUT OF DEATH that the world is given hope of the same resurrection OUT OF DEATH. We are NOT saved from death, we are saved OUT OF DEATH, for it was while we were DEAD in sin that He died and was raised to life again for us.

So the resurrection is a moving from DEATH to LIFE, so as He died for all men, so to did He rise for all men, and this is the gospel of the good new toward ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.

If one believes Jesus died for all men, should it not go without saying that when He rose again that it was for all men also? Can we really separate His death from His resurrection? If so, how then can DEATH be swallowed up of LIFE?

God bless


I wrote this in response to a lady who asked the question if all are saved why preach the gospel at all?


After reading my answer this was her reply back to me.



Dear Pneuma,

I totally agree with your description of the gospel. Yes, we are not only dead in Christ but now alive in Christ, praise God. You are right, Christ's death cannot be separated from His resurrection. It was His resurrection that the disciples preached, you are right. It is His resurrection that is the hope for all mankind. The full gospel is the death and resurrection. I agree He died for all, all are reconciled through His death and all are given life through His resurrection, out of death, as you say. I can't however, get past the point of faith (which is given to us by God in His grace anyway, all have the capacity to believe, or reject) and personal response to accepting this truth for ourselves, as revealed by the Spirit to us. I heard John Bevere give a definition of the word 'believe' in as meaning 'to follow'. Believing (in our terms) is first yes, and then taking up our cross daily and living following Christ, I agree is the full walk of salvation. Again, we can only do any of this by God's grace through faith hey.
I feel the Spirit of God on what you have written and thank you.

 

[bling]

The cross is not some stake Jesus was nailed to, but the LIFE he lived of continual dying to self, not my will but thine be done. That is why we are told to take up OUR cross and follow Him.

Christ did not personally want to go to the cross, while the: the healings, teaching, preaching, walking away from being captured and killed might be hard and frustrating they were nothing like the torture, humiliation, being abandoned by His disciples and holding off angels to save Him on the cross.

Look at Peter’s excellent “Christ Crucified “, gospel message sermon to nonbelievers in Acts 2 and see what is being emphasized and confected the people.

Yes! You cannot help but be inspired by the example of Christ on the cross (and really His whole life), but there is something very specific (and much more) about Christ being tortured, humiliated and murdered.

Yes He is the whole atonement for scripture testifies he is not only the atonement for our sins but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD.

That is not the most likely interpretation: “Christ is the atonement sacrifice for the entire world”, atonement is a process that includes to actions of the sinner going through the atonement process (Lev. 5).

I don't try to convince the unbeliever of anything. I tell them this they have already been reconciled via Jesus death and are to be saved by His LIFE.

Look though The New Testament scripture at and after Pentecost to all the Christians (include Paul and the other apostles) teaching and sermons to nonbeliever and tell me they are not trying to “convince” their nonbeliever audience?

Everyone is at a different spot spiritually, so no one sermon fits everyone. Teach the individual nonbeliever requires lots of pray time, study and meditation to allow the Spirit to work through you and convince the nonbeliever to the point of accepting or rejecting God’s charity.

Why preach the gospel at all?

It is our privilege and honor to allow Christ to be seen and experiences in us by others. God has allowed and arranged it so we can participate with God in the spreading of His word to grow spiritually and become an even greater servant (like Christ). We can experience God’s glory by being I the His presence (having Him live through us) when He is glorified.

We do not preach to make believers, but to provide the very best opportunity for the nonbeliever to accept God’s charity and to continue to support believers in their spiritual growth and for everyone to avoid withering.

Here is my answer to this question


For me the reason Jesus was sent and the reason Jesus sends us is to free people through Him from sin and death. Salvation is not complete just because one believes Jesus died for them. Believing is only the starting point on our journey toward full salvation, for we are reconciled by His death, but saved by His life.

All men everywhere are already reconciled by His death, this is a done deal because He died 2000 years ago for all men's reconciliation and mans belief or unbelief CANNOT change this fact. If someone does not believe Jesus died for then simply does not change the fact that He did.

So then all men everywhere have already been reconciled, but not all men are yet saved from sin and death.


Therefore Jesus send us out in order to proclaim His salvation by His LIFE.
His death reconciled all men, but His LIFE is what saves all men, this salvation is not a one time deal as such, but is a long process of walking in His LIFE and forsaking our own. Taking up the cross and following Him and enduring unto the end that we might be saved.


Thus we are told to proclaim His death and therefore His reconciliation for all men as a FACT that cannot be disputed , and we are to do this so that the entire world can have the same hope in His LIFE that we to have. Thus it is not by His death that sin and death are defeated but by His LIFE.

When we witness about that which Jesus done, we are first to tell all men that they have been reconciled because of His death, this fact breathes hope into the world that God does indeed love them. Then after people become aware of the fact of this reconciliation by His death we are to proclaim His resurrection. And it is because of the fact that He was resurrected OUT OF DEATH that the world is given hope of the same resurrection OUT OF DEATH. We are NOT saved from death, we are saved OUT OF DEATH, for it was while we were DEAD in sin that He died and was raised to life again for us.

So the resurrection is a moving from DEATH to LIFE, so as He died for all men, so to did He rise for all men, and this is the gospel of the good new toward ALL MEN EVERYWHERE.

If one believes Jesus died for all men, should it not go without saying that when He rose again that it was for all men also? Can we really separate His death from His resurrection? If so, how then can DEATH be swallowed up of LIFE?

God bless


I wrote this in response to a lady who asked the question if all are saved why preach the gospel at all?


After reading my answer this was her reply back to me.



Dear Pneuma,

I totally agree with your description of the gospel. Yes, we are not only dead in Christ but now alive in Christ, praise God. You are right, Christ's death cannot be separated from His resurrection. It was His resurrection that the disciples preached, you are right. It is His resurrection that is the hope for all mankind. The full gospel is the death and resurrection. I agree He died for all, all are reconciled through His death and all are given life through His resurrection, out of death, as you say. I can't however, get past the point of faith (which is given to us by God in His grace anyway, all have the capacity to believe, or reject) and personal response to accepting this truth for ourselves, as revealed by the Spirit to us. I heard John Bevere give a definition of the word 'believe' in as meaning 'to follow'. Believing (in our terms) is first yes, and then taking up our cross daily and living following Christ, I agree is the full walk of salvation. Again, we can only do any of this by God's grace through faith hey.
I feel the Spirit of God on what you have written and thank you.

Here in is where our discussion has a significant difference:

Yes! Christ was/is the atonement sacrifice for everyone, but that does not reconcile everyone to God. God has never been the problem in man being reconciled, so God does not “need” anything to be reconciled to man and He does not change. Man has to just humbly accept pure charity for reconciliation to take place. The nonbeliever sinner, starts out as a soldier of satan, enemy of God and fighting God off, but sin (the hurting of others) starts out as a burden, the fighting against God is hard and tiring, but he/she can wimp out, give up and surrender even though God is still His/her enemy. He/she is not at this point “joining” God or becoming His soldier, but is just willing to accept the pure undeserved charity of his/her enemy. At that point God is allowed to shower them with unbelievable gifts, since they are willing to accept His charity as charity.

The cross allows the nonbeliever to really see how bad his sins are, how great God’s Love is, how God is His/her parent seeing to his/her fair/just loving discipline, and to participate with God/Christ in his/her disciplining (a real learning experience.

This is all “Good News”!

Christ’s life, in His three-year ministry, does show us how deity allowing to live unfettered in a human can Love and grow serving others and God. This is what we can do if we want to it, like Paul and the others.

Salvation is one of the many gifts given us when we are just willing to accept God’s charity, our actions afterwards are the result of a huge gratitude type Love (Godly type Love) that does retain and grow our desire for Godly type Love and avoid being caught up in carnal love to the point we give our birthright away to satan.

Yes, to live for God and others here on earth is going to be filled with hardship, challenges and the crucifixion of self-daily, but that is not in someway providing us with salvation, since we are already saved by accepting what Christ did on the cross, eternal life in heaven becomes our birthright we do not want to give away. Christ resurrection is proof God will resurrect us. The indwelling Holy Spirit is our assurance God will keep all His promises.

Christ did not die just to rise from the grave.

You say: “all men everywhere have already been reconciled”. No, Christ was/is the atonement sacrifice for all sinners after the cross and Christ rose so all humans can rise from the grave, but atonement is a disciplining activity that required the sinner to humbly accept what Christ did on the cross and thus be crucified with Christ to receive that disciplining (complete the atonement process).

 

[Pneuma3]

Yes! You cannot help but be inspired by the example of Christ on the cross (and really His whole life), but there is something very specific (and much more) about Christ being tortured, humiliated and murdered.

IMO that is a barbaric understanding of love. God does not require torture, humiliation and murder and according to scripture they are those things that defile a man.

That is not the most likely interpretation: “Christ is the atonement sacrifice for the entire world”, atonement is a process that includes to actions of the sinner going through the atonement process (Lev. 5).

Your mixing up regular atonement where man participates with Yom kipper or the day of atonement in which no work is to be done. Jesus Christ is the atonement of the whole world, he not only reconciles but cleanses each and every member of the human race for he must according to scripture take away the sins of the world.

Look though The New Testament scripture at and after Pentecost to all the Christians (include Paul and the other apostles) teaching and sermons to nonbeliever and tell me they are not trying to “convince” their nonbeliever audience?

Everyone is at a different spot spiritually, so no one sermon fits everyone. Teach the individual nonbeliever requires lots of pray time, study and meditation to allow the Spirit to work through you and convince the nonbeliever to the point of accepting or rejecting God’s charity.

We do not preach to make believers, but to provide the very best opportunity for the nonbeliever to accept God’s charity and to continue to support believers in their spiritual growth and for everyone to avoid withering.

Read your two quotes above, first you say Paul and the boys are trying to convince non believers then you say we do not preach to make believers. Sorry but you cannot have it both ways.

 

[Pneuma3]

Here in is where our discussion has a significant difference:

I think we parted ways when you said Jesus Christ atonement did not accomplish much.

Yes! Christ was/is the atonement sacrifice for everyone, but that does not reconcile everyone to God.

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

These scriptures disagrees with you

You say: “all men everywhere have already been reconciled”. No, Christ was/is the atonement sacrifice for all sinners after the cross and Christ rose so all humans can rise from the grave, but atonement is a disciplining activity that required the sinner to humbly accept what Christ did on the cross and thus be crucified with Christ to receive that disciplining (complete the atonement process).

I don't say it scripture does I am just agreeing with the scriptures. ALL things in heaven and earth are reconciled.

 

[bling]

I think we parted ways when you said Jesus Christ atonement did not accomplish much.

I did not even suggest such a thing!

What I was talking about was the: “The atonement sacrifice on the Day of Atonement”. The reason it is not that significant is because it only atoned for sins you were not even sure you committed and did nothing for rebellious disobedience (which all mature adults are guilty of).

Christ atonement sacrifice is hugely significant.

And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

This is explaining what Christ did and why He did it, but even though Christ and God did all they could, does not mean: everyone was “reconciled” because reconciliation is not just one sided.

Look at this description of reconciliation:

Matthew 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

If reconciliation was one sided you could just do it at the altar and not have to go to your brother to work things out together.

What in heaven needs to be reconciled to God?

Reconciliation needs to be made between earth and heaven, but heaven does not have to lower itself, so it is earth “humans” who need to do their part.

It is through Christ this reconciliation can happen, but that does not mean it did happen.

God/Christ: Love everyone, forgive everyone, call everyone, atoned for everyone, made peace with everyone, made us one, redemption for all, unity of all things and reconciled everyone, but that means: God/Christ have done perfectly Their part in all these transactions. These are not totally one-sided transactions, since the receiver has a part to play. The part the receiver plays is to humbly accept these gifts as pure charity since they pure charity.


Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,

Some people are not “one” with God/Christ because they are holding back (it is a transaction requiring parts to be played on both sides), God/Christ have done their part.

Eph. 1: 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

The time has been reached fulfillment (the unity of all things in heaven and earth), but this unity has not happened because some people refuse to humbly accept God’s charity.

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

2 Cor. 5: 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

If Paul and the Christians with him are saying: “be reconciled to God”, that would not mean they are all automatically already “reconciled”, but are we to be “appealing” to others “the message of reconciliation” and not the message live right because you are reconcile.

Please, Look at all the sermons/teaching in the New Testament to nonbelievers (not letters written to believers) and see if you can find a Christian teaching a non-Christian: “You have been reconciled”.

One last verse:

Col. 1: 21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

Paul is contrasting the time before reconciliation and the time after reconciliation, the time before reconciliation was prior to their becoming Christians (time of their evil behavior which would have gone up to the time they became a Christian) and not just the time before Christ’s crucifixion.

These scriptures disagrees with you

No they do not.

I don't say it scripture does I am just agreeing with the scriptures. ALL things in heaven and earth are reconciled.

Look above to an explanation of that.

 

[bling]

IMO that is a barbaric understanding of love. God does not require torture, humiliation and murder and according to scripture they are those things that defile a man.

You are very much right: “God does not require torture, humiliation and murder”! It is I who need fair/just loving disciplining for my sins: to receive all the benefits of a Loving Parent’s discipline. Having Christ participate with me in my being discipline only adds to the learning experience. "I have been crucified with Christ".

Your mixing up regular atonement where man participates with Yom kipper or the day of atonement in which no work is to be done. Jesus Christ is the atonement of the whole world, he not only reconciles but cleanses each and every member of the human race for he must according to scripture take away the sins of the world.

Actually the “regular atonement” fits better what Christ did, because it is individual and personal, the huge difference being the “regular atonement” was for just minor (unintentional sins) while the atonement with Christ is for individual major rebellious sins against God which I personally have committed. The Yom Kipper sacrifice was for possible sins you thought you might have committed of and felt guilty about, but you may not have even committed a sin.

Read your two quotes above, first you say Paul and the boys are trying to convince non believers then you say we do not preach to make believers. Sorry but you cannot have it both ways.

The nonbeliever has a free will choice to accept or reject God’s charity which we do not make for them, but we do preach to them to help them in making the choice.

The truth is Paul and others teaching nonbelievers do not say: you have been reconciled to God already.

 

[Pneuma3]

I did not even suggest such a thing!

What I was talking about was the: “The atonement sacrifice on the Day of Atonement”. The reason it is not that significant is because it only atoned for sins you were not even sure you committed and did nothing for rebellious disobedience (which all mature adults are guilty of).

Yom kipper is not just for the atonement of sins you are not aware of, that is a Jewish understanding because they do not believe that Christ is their yom kipper and thus miss the full meaning of yom kipper, which is the yom kipper atonement is not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world and is done so via the cleansing of the temple and removal of all sin. Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Christ atonement sacrifice is hugely significant.

Yes it is and yom kipper is a shadow of that sacrifice. thus when you say yom kipper did not do much and yom kipper is associated with Christ you are in effect saying Christ yom kipper atonement did not do much.

Colossians 1:20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

This is explaining what Christ did and why He did it, but even though Christ and God did all they could, does not mean: everyone was “reconciled” because reconciliation is not just one sided.

Look at this description of reconciliation:

Matthew 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.

If reconciliation was one sided you could just do it at the altar and not have to go to your brother to work things out together.

What in heaven needs to be reconciled to God?

Reconciliation needs to be made between earth and heaven, but heaven does not have to lower itself, so it is earth “humans” who need to do their part.

It is through Christ this reconciliation can happen, but that does not mean it did happen.

God/Christ: Love everyone, forgive everyone, call everyone, atoned for everyone, made peace with everyone, made us one, redemption for all, unity of all things and reconciled everyone, but that means: God/Christ have done perfectly Their part in all these transactions. These are not totally one-sided transactions, since the receiver has a part to play. The part the receiver plays is to humbly accept these gifts as pure charity since they pure charity.


Ephesians 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,

Some people are not “one” with God/Christ because they are holding back (it is a transaction requiring parts to be played on both sides), God/Christ have done their part.

Eph. 1: 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

The time has been reached fulfillment (the unity of all things in heaven and earth), but this unity has not happened because some people refuse to humbly accept God’s charity.

You are simply mixing up regular atonement with Yom kipper which was for the whole world.

2 Cor. 5: 16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.

If Paul and the Christians with him are saying: “be reconciled to God”, that would not mean they are all automatically already “reconciled”, but are we to be “appealing” to others “the message of reconciliation” and not the message live right because you are reconcile.

Please, Look at all the sermons/teaching in the New Testament to nonbelievers (not letters written to believers) and see if you can find a Christian teaching a non-Christian: “You have been reconciled”.

One last verse:

Col. 1: 21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—

Paul is contrasting the time before reconciliation and the time after reconciliation, the time before reconciliation was prior to their becoming Christians (time of their evil behavior which would have gone up to the time they became a Christian) and not just the time before Christ’s crucifixion.

Again you are mixing up the regular atonement with yom kipper, that ONE time sacrifice for ALL.
Christ death is the reconciliation of the world and like I said when people hear this it breathes hope into them that God loves them and then they also want to be reconciled (regular INDIVIDUAL atonement) onto God. Thus being saved by His life, putting on the mind of Christ etc.

Yom kipper happened 2000 years ago it is a DONE deal, and all we need to do is reconcile our minds to that. Regular or individual atonement

Actually the “regular atonement” fits better what Christ did, because it is individual and personal, the huge difference being the “regular atonement” was for just minor (unintentional sins) while the atonement with Christ is for individual major rebellious sins against God which I personally have committed. The Yom Kipper sacrifice was for possible sins you thought you might have committed of and felt guilty about, but you may not have even committed a sin.

Like I said you are mixing the two up, thus calling regular or individual atonement, which is to happen every day, greater then that ONE TIME yom kipper sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

 

[bling]

Yom kipper is not just for the atonement of sins you are not aware of, that is a Jewish understanding because they do not believe that Christ is their yom kipper and thus miss the full meaning of yom kipper, which is the yom kipper atonement is not only for our sins but for the sins of the whole world and is done so via the cleansing of the temple and removal of all sin. Behold the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.

Find that in the Old Testament about Yom Kipper, because it is not there and even in the New Testament the Hebrew writer tells us:

Heb. 9: 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed…This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

You are simply mixing up regular atonement with Yom kipper which was for the whole world.

Find me scripture which says “Yom Kipper is for the whole world”?

Yom kipper happened 2000 years ago it is a DONE deal, and all we need to do is reconcile our minds to that. Regular or individual atonement

Yom Kipper is just a shadow along with the shadow found in individual atonement sacrifices (Lev. 5) and along with the punishments required for intentional sins, that show only a portion of what Christ did with His sacrifice.

Like I said you are mixing the two up, thus calling regular or individual atonement, which is to happen every day, greater then that ONE TIME yom kipper sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

We are to participate in being crucified with Christ (the atonement sacrifice) daily.

 

[Pneuma3]

Find that in the Old Testament about Yom Kipper, because it is not there and even in the New Testament the Hebrew writer tells us:

1Jn. 2:2

Heb. 9: 7 But only the high priest entered the inner room, and that only once a year, and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. 8 The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed…This is an illustration for the present time, indicating that the gifts and sacrifices being offered were not able to clear the conscience of the worshiper. 10 They are only a matter of food and drink and various ceremonial washings—external regulations applying until the time of the new order.

Eeek gad did you even read my posts on the scapegoat? All the sacrifices of old are nothing more then a shadow of the reality. In other words what they do is point to Christ.

Find me scripture which says “Yom Kipper is for the whole world”?

1 jn. 2:2

Yom Kipper is just a shadow along with the shadow found in individual atonement sacrifices (Lev. 5) and along with the punishments required for intentional sins, that show only a portion of what Christ did with His sacrifice.

We agree it is only a shadow of the true. but that shadow of Yom kipper shows that it cleansed and took away the sins of the whole nation. Yet we have a better sacrifice then is shown in the shadow for we have the true and accordingly He shows that he is the YOM KIPPER, not for us only but for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jn. 2:2

We are to participate in being crucified with Christ (the atonement sacrifice) daily.

Agreed, but that according to the individual sacrifice and not YOM KIPPER which was ONCE for all.

 

[bling]

1Jn. 2:2

Where is there anything in that verse about Yom Kipper?

Yes! Christ’s atoning sacrifice is for all sins of the whole world after he went to the cross, but He is not the Yon Kipper sacrifice which as I said did little according to the Hebrew writer: “…for the sins the people had committed in ignorance”.

Eeek gad did you even read my posts on the scapegoat? All the sacrifices of old are nothing more then a shadow of the reality. In other words what they do is point to Christ.

So, they were not that significant but just pointed to the reality?

Christ is not “like” them or just replacing them, but they are just partial shadows of what he did and need to be taken together.

We agree it is only a shadow of the true. but that shadow of Yom kipper shows that it cleansed and took away the sins of the whole nation. Yet we have a better sacrifice then is shown in the shadow for we have the true and accordingly He shows that he is the YOM KIPPER, not for us only but for the sins of the whole world.

1 Jn. 2:2

The Yom Kipper “shadow” was not for all sins (Heb. 9) and it was for “the people” referring to the Jews of the time those under The Law.

Agreed, but that according to the individual sacrifice and not YOM KIPPER which was ONCE for all.

Yom Kipper was once a year for the Jews and Heb. 9 “sins the people had committed in ignorance.” Christ’s sacrifice being one time for all sins of all people would include the sins of Yom Kipper, but He was not crucified to just replace Yom Kipper.

 

[mkgal1]

Has there been another Yom Kippur sacrifice since His resurrection and the tearing of the curtain in the Temple in Jerusalem?

As far as the two goats go - I found this commentary (it never even occured to me that some could perceive the scapegoat as anything other than a shadow representative for Christ. Do we not all agree that He "took on the sin of the world and *became sin*?)

Quoting linked commentary-----> Christ "bare our sins in his own body on the tree"; they were imputed to him, and he bare the punishment due to them: this was typified by the goat which was slain and burnt. He then ascended into heaven, and by his intercession grounded on his atonement, renders our persons and services accepted: this was typified by the high priest entering with the blood and incense into the most holy place. In consequence of this, the sins of all believers are entirely forgiven; and they are dealt with, as if they had never committed them: this was shadowed by the scape-goat sent away into the wilderness. (Commentary on Leviticus 16:20-2, Scott, I, 365. See also, I, 362-9 for Scott's detailed comments on the scapegoat's prefigurative relation to Christ; and Fairbairn, The Typology of Scripture, II, 312, 541.) ~ The Scapegoat​