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Scapegoat

redleghunter

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yet they also tell us that EVERY knee shall bow and tongue confess Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. ALL SHALL BELIEVE.
Even the demons acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God (Matt. 8:29).

Romans 10: NASB

5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Once again, one of the plucked out verses you use is qualified for those who believe in their heart God Raised Jesus from the dead.
 
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redleghunter

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1 tim 4:10
1Jn 2:2
And every knee shall bow and tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
The restitution of ALL things spoken by all the prophets of old.
ALL things in heaven and earth are reconciled by the blood of Christ.
etc...
Yes Jesus is the Savior of all peoples or world. Yet only eternal life for those who believe in Him. A defeated army proclaiming the conquering King as Lord is acknowledging the obvious. The text does not say they proclaim Him their Savior. See Revelation 19.

Paul is quoting Isaiah:

Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by myself… that to me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear. (Isa. 45:22-23)

Isaiah 45: NASB

21“Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.


22“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.


23“I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.


24“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.

 
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redleghunter

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they remain under the working of the law/wrath of God as a ministration of death, so that the schoolmaster can lead them to Christ.
That's not what the text says. There are distinctions and qualifiers:

John 3: NASB
16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
 
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redleghunter

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Yes, it is two goats representing ONE sacrifice.
But for Israel the chosen. Not the Gentiles.

Now with the above in mind...When Jewish New Testament inspired writers mention "all" and "world" they are speaking of the New Covenant being for all peoples who believe. Keep that in mind. Even in the NT church there were "bigots" who still thought only Jews and those who become observant Jews are inheritors of the Promise. That is why they used such language and we must consider how they used words in the New Testament period where Gentiles were being gathered into the fold. And not some late first millennium existential mindset.
 
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mmksparbud

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and yet the scapegoat is for atonement so it is in reference to Christ, what you are in effect saying is the satan is the atonement , the one who takes away the sin of the world.

eek gad what a belief.

Absolutely not!!! Please do not tell me what I believe! I have repeatedly said---Jesus is the one who takes away the sin of the world--what part of that is unclear???
It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses--The Lord's Goat--The One Slain--It is His blood that cleanses---the 2nd goat sheds no blood.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
 
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Pneuma3

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But for Israel the chosen. Not the Gentiles.

Now with the above in mind...When Jewish New Testament inspired writers mention "all" and "world" they are speaking of the New Covenant being for all peoples who believe. Keep that in mind. Even in the NT church there were "bigots" who still thought only Jews and those who become observant Jews are inheritors of the Promise. That is why they used such language and we must consider how they used words in the New Testament period where Gentiles were being gathered into the fold. And not some late first millennium existential mindset.

Tell that to Paul who was sent to the gentile. and to John who says it was for the whole world.
 
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Pneuma3

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Absolutely not!!! Please do not tell me what I believe! I have repeatedly said---Jesus is the one who takes away the sin of the world--what part of that is unclear???
It is the blood of Jesus that cleanses--The Lord's Goat--The One Slain--It is His blood that cleanses---the 2nd goat sheds no blood.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

You are still saying the scapegoat is the Atonement for our sins. Thus if the scapegoat is Satan then you are saying Satan is the atonement for our sins.

I cannot help it if 1+1=2
 
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Pneuma3

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Even the demons acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God (Matt. 8:29).

Romans 10: NASB

5For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness. 6But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: “DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, ‘WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?’ (that is, to bring Christ down), 7or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).” 8But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED.” 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for “WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED.”

Once again, one of the plucked out verses you use is qualified for those who believe in their heart God Raised Jesus from the dead.
and plucking that scripture out to say every knee bowing and confessing is not unto salvation when God said look unto me and be ye saved all the ends of the earth just shows how little you think of the cross of our Lord.
 
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Pneuma3

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Yes Jesus is the Savior of all peoples or world. Yet only eternal life for those who believe in Him. A defeated army proclaiming the conquering King as Lord is acknowledging the obvious. The text does not say they proclaim Him their Savior. See Revelation 19.

Paul is quoting Isaiah:

Turn to me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; For I am God, and there is no other. I have sworn by myself… that to me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear. (Isa. 45:22-23)

Isaiah 45: NASB

21“Declare and set forth your case;
Indeed, let them consult together.
Who has announced this from of old?
Who has long since declared it?
Is it not I, the LORD?
And there is no other God besides Me,
A righteous God and a Savior;
There is none except Me.


22“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.


23“I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.


24“They will say of Me, ‘Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.


Romans 14:10-12

10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. 11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.



Philippians 2:5-11

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


Now the argument that those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation make concerning these verses goes something like this. That every knee bowing means that some will bow in worship and some will be made to bow. That some will confess Jesus Christ is Lord and some will be forced to confess Jesus Christ is Lord.


However nothing in those scriptures state it the way those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation want to read it.


Let's take for instance the word bow, in the Greek the word is kampto, and it means to bend the knee in honour and religious veneration and it is only used for religious veneration in scripture.


Thus we can see that being made to bow as the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation is in complete error.


Now let's look at the other word, confess. The word confess here is the Greek word exomologeo meaning to acknowledge openly and joyfully, to celebrate in praise of ones honour.


Thus we can see that being forced to confess as the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation is again in complete error.


A couple of other things of note here is that God gets NO glory from lip service, which is all it would be if people are forced to confess that Jesus Christ is Lord.


And we also know that no man can say that Jesus Christ is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.


1 Corinthians 12:3

3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.



And that confession is made unto salvation.


Romans 10:10

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.



Another thing that those who believe in eternal torment and annihilation state is that those of us who believe the scriptures that state that God is the saviour of the WORLD or ALL MEN is that we take these scriptures out of context.


Well let's read them in context shall we.





Isaiah 45:20-23

20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations: they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save. 21 Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me. 22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. 23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


God just finished saying He was a just God and saviour, then says look unto me and be ye SAVED, ALL THE ENDS OF THE EARTH. Then God, because He can swear by none greater, swears by Himself that every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.


Thus the doctrines of eternal torment and annihilation do not believe God can or will be able to perform that which He swore by Himself that He would do.


Now least someone say ,but those scriptures are only speaking of those who are alive ( and some have used this excuse to hold onto their erroneous doctrine). Look at what it states in Philippians 2:10-11


That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.


The scripture left NO doubt that it was speaking of EVERY knee and EVERY tongue.
 
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Pneuma3

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"Appendix II: Every Knee Shall Bow" (first posted by clement)

This worship brings Him glory. A forced worship would not glorify or satisfy a loving God. ―This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me‖ (Mt. 15:8)¨ Paul links mouth confession with salvation. ―If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus…you will be saved…with the mouth confession is made unto salvation‖ (Ro. 10:9). ¨ ―No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit‖ (1Co. 12:3). This is strong evidence it refers to a sincere worship since fear alone could bring about a forced worship without the need of the Holy Spirit moving the heart. ¨ The phrase ―confess that Jesus Christ is Lord‖ was used in early baptismal services by which those being baptized expressed their commitment to Christ or declared they had been saved through Christ.2 Now, since ―under the earth‖ refers to the abode of the dead (or hell), then even in death an opportunity remains to confess Christ unto salvation. ¨ According to Vine, ―bow,‖ (kamptō per Strong‘s 2578, ―to bend‖) is used especially of bending the knees in religious veneration (Ro.11:4, 14:11; Ep. 3:14; Ph. 2:10). [In contrast] sunkamptō signifies… to bend down by compulsory force‖ (Ro. 11:10). 1 ¨"God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (Ph. 2:9-11 NAS). Is this forced worship, or one offered genuinely from the heart? Below are 20 points that together, I believe, unmistakably affirm true worship.
The word ―confess‖ in this passage is the same Greek word exomologeomai that Christ used in praising His Father in Mt. 11:25 and Lu. 10:21. It is used 11 times: Mt. 3:6; 11:25; Mk. 1:5; Lu. 10:21; 22:6; Ac. 19:18; Ro. 14:11; 15:9; Ph. 2:11; Ja. 5:16; and Re. 3:5. None of these can be seen as ―forced‖ praise. They relate to what flows naturally from the heart. For example, Jesus exclaimed, ―I heartily praise Thee, Father…that Thou hast hidden these things…‖ (Mt. 11:25 Wey). The NIV and the NAS read, ―I praise you Father.‖ Ro. 15:9 RSV states, ―I will praise thee among the Gentiles, and sing to thy name‖ (See the NIV, NAS, TEV, Phillips, Jerusalem Bible, RSV, NEB, WEY, and so forth). The Englishman‘s Hebrew and Chaldee Concordance of the Old Testament says exomologeomai is the Greek word used in Psalms for ―praise‖ (yadah) and ―give thanks‖ (hoday) in the Septuagint used in Christ‘s time. Simply reading Psalms confirms the genuine worship of Ph. 2:11.3¨ That this is true worship is confirmed in Re. 5:13 and by the entire context (Re. 5: 11-14) if they are related. ―Every creature in heaven and earth and under the earth…I heard saying: ‗Blessing, honor, glory, power be to Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb‘…‖ (Re. 5:13). Why would these two contexts not be related? ¨

Ken Eckerty in an article titled, ―The Work of the Cross,‖ said: I think it‘s significant that the bowing of every knee and the confessing of every tongue is done ―in‖ the name of Jesus, not ―at‖ as translated by the KJV. Scholars such as Vincent, Robertson, Young, Rotherham, and Bullinger (just to name a few) all say that it is best translated ―in.‖ ―For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I.…‖ Mt.18:20 ―In‖ Christ‘s name implies an ―entering into‖ or an intimacy with His name. Confession ―in‖ His name cannot mean anything but intimacy. 4 To accurately understand Ph. 2:9-11, we must go to the Old Testament from where it is quoted. Let us look closely at Is. 45:21-25: 21.There is no other God beside Me, a just God and a Savior; there is¨" Those who are incensed against Him shall be ashamed (vs. 24). Being ashamed is usually a positive thing and often a sign of genuine repentance. 2Ch. 30:15;¨ ―Surely in the LORD I have righteousness‖ (vs. 24). Only a genuine believer could say this. Note that this is stated as an oath (vs. 23), making it especially pertinent. ¨none beside me. 22. Look to Me and be saved, all you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23. I have sworn by Myself; the word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, that to Me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall take an oath. 24. He shall say, ‗Surely in the LORD I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, and all shall be ashamed who are incensed against Him. 25.In the LORD all the descendents of Israel shall be justified, and shall glory.‘ Ezra 9:5-7; Job 19:3; Jer. 6:13-15, 8:12, 12:13, 31:18- 20, Ez. 16:60-63, 36:31-33; 2Th. 3:14-15.

―How awesome are Your works! Through the greatness of Your power Your enemies shall submit themselves to You. All the earth shall worship You and sing praises to You; they shall sing praises to Your name. Selah. Come and see the works of God; He is awesome in His doing toward the sons of men (Ps. 66:3-5).‖ Certainly these passages together with Ph. 2:11 all point to the same glorious worship (Re. 5:13)!¨ ―He is able even to subdue all ―things‖ to Himself (Ph. 3:21).‖ Note: ―things‖ is not in the Greek and that this is said in the very same letter! ¨ ―Because He delights in mercy. He will again have compassion on us, and will subdue our iniquities. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea (Mic. 7:18-19).‖Is subduing iniquity forcing insincere worship? ¨"―All the descendants of Israel shall be justified and shall glory‖ (vs. 25). Justification and glory are undeniable evidences of genuine repentance.

"In Ps. 66:3-5, God is described twice as ―awesome‖ in the very context of ―enemies submitting themselves‖ through His ―great‖ power. And this mind you, is all in the context of ―all the earth‖ worshiping and singing praises to God! David then invites us to come and see how awesome is His doing toward humanity! Where is ―forced‖ worship here? As well, they are ―submitting themselves,‖ not ―being‖ submitted. Relative to Mic. 7:18-19, how can a ―compassionate subduing‖ from a God ―delighting in mercy‖ (in the very context of sins cast away) possibly coincide with a forced worship of those eternally being tormented in hell? Now Ph. 3: 21 is found in the very same letter as our key text, making it particularly pertinent. It affirms that God‘s power is ―even able‖ to do something. ―Even able‖ implies something extraordinarily impressive. A compelled submission by brute force is not particularly impressive. But a God winning the hearts of His enemies through His sacrificial love on the cross—that is impressive! That‘s what makes Him truly a most ―awesome‖ and all powerful God!

"―He humbled Himself…even the death of the cross. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him…that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow‖ (Ph. 2:8-9). Every knee bows because of the cross. The word ―therefore‖ links the cross with worship. To deny genuine worship at the foot of the cross is to strip this passage of all its meaning. Worse, it strips the cross of its power to save and insults the Spirit of grace (He. 10:29). Talbott asks: Now just what is the power of the Cross, according to Paul? Is it the power of a conquering hero to compel His enemies to obey Him against their will? If that had been Paul‘s doctrine, it would have been strange indeed, for God had no need of a crucifixion to compel obedience. He was quite capable of doing that all along. God sent His Son into the world, not as a conquering hero, but as a suffering servant; and the power that Jesus unleashed as He bled on the Cross was precisely the power of self-giving love, the power to overcome evil by transforming the wills and renewing the minds of the evil ones themselves. ⁵

"The cross of Christ is the greatest power in the universe because it alone can melt the hearts of God‘s enemies, and make them His friends. As John Milton, the famous 17th century English author wrote, ―Who overcomes by force hath overcome but half his foe.‖ 6

Finally, some will say, ―Of course they‘ll confess then, it will all be too obvious. There will be no merit to confessing then.‖ But are we saved by merit? Where is boasting? It is excluded (Ro. 3:27). We, as the Church, have stripped this passage of its full glory. The bottom line is the love of God will do what His power alone could never do: conquer the hearts of His enemies and make them His friends.¨ God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name…. What kind of a worship, sincere or genuine, would highly exalt Christ? I know which one would lowly exalt Him. ¨ ―When all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him that God may be all in all‖ (1Co. 15:28). The Greek word for ―subject‖ is the same word applied to Christ. Can it be questioned that Christ‘s submission is not freely given? Moreover, would God be all in subjects forcefully subjugated? ¨ God Himself works in them ―to will.‖ Does God working in the hearts of His children to will to do His good pleasure mean only a forced submission? The question is its own refutation. ¨ Salvation is directly mentioned here. ―Every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Therefore…work out your own salvation…for God works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure‖ (Ph. 2:11-13). The word ―therefore‖ is very significant, for it links the confession that Jesus is Lord directly with salvation. ¨"

"Why did I go into such detail over this one verse? Because this passage is very well known, quoted, and even sung about. Sadly, it is not truly appreciated for its glorious meaning. I think any honest reflection of these twenty points must agree with the evidence presented, that Ph. 2:9-11 affirms sincere and heartfelt worship."
 
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Hammster

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Yes it did, however you for one reason or another can't see it.
The reason is you didn’t address my point. Maybe you aren’t as clear as you think and should try to explain it a different way.
 
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Hammster

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and until you can admit that nowhere is kosmos defined as people of every tongue and nation you will be enslaved by your doctrine.
Can it mean people throughout the world, but not necessarily everyone?
 
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Pneuma3

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The reason is you didn’t address my point. Maybe you aren’t as clear as you think and should try to explain it a different way.

That could be ham, sometime it is very plain to the one posting but no so much to the one reading. I will go back and look at your question again.
 
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Hammster

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this is a perfect example of your enslavement to your doctrine. Nothing in that verse suggest the world = some of every tongue and nation.
Not everyone is saved. So, there’s that.
 
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Pneuma3

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Not everyone is saved. So, there’s that.
can you show me a scripture that says not everyone is saved?

This is a problem you have to face, what you believe is not actually recorded in scripture while what I believe is very plainly spoken of in scripture by both Paul and John.
 
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Hammster

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I don't see how unless you do not believe Jesus came into the world to save the world. Is that what you are saying?
Again, grammatically, is that an acceptable definition?
 
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