Scapegoat

[Pneuma3]

The problem is that it doesn’t say that His work is sufficient for all people. I agree that it is. What it says is that He is a propitiation for the whole world. Propitiation means that God’s wrath is satisfied. If it’s satified against all sin, then there is no reason that any should be sent to hell. It would be unjust. But we know that His wrath remains on some (John 3:36). So you can’t have His wrath both remaining on some while at the same time be satisfied against all.

Just so I do not answer the wrong post is this the one you are referring to?

 

[Hammster]

can you show me a scripture that says not everyone is saved?

This is a problem you have to face, what you believe is not actually recorded in scripture while what I believe is very plainly spoken of in scripture by both Paul and John.

Matthew 25:46

 

[Pneuma3]

Matthew 25.

noting in Mt.25 says not everyone is saved.

 

[Hammster]

Just so I do not answer the wrong post is this the one you are referring to?

I think that’s the one.

 

[Hammster]

noting in Mt.25 says not everyone is saved.

Last verse.

 

[Pneuma3]

Last verse.

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

the word is aionios, not aidios. Aidios all scholars agree means eternal. aionios means of uncertain duration and pertains to an age.

Thus they shall go away into age during correction. That correction come via the workings wrath which is the law, which is a ministration of death (to our old man nature) and our schoolmaster that leads back to Christ.

 

[Hammster]

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

the word is aionios, not aidios. Aidios all scholars agree means eternal. aionios means of uncertain duration and pertains to an age.

Thus they shall go away into age during correction. That correction come via the workings wrath which is the law, which is a ministration of death (to our old man nature) and our schoolmaster that leads back to Christ.

You are incorrect on that, but I know this will be a complete waste of my time. So I’m bowing out now.

 

[mmksparbud]

You are still saying the scapegoat is the Atonement for our sins. Thus if the scapegoat is Satan then you are saying Satan is the atonement for our sins.

I cannot help it if 1+1=2

You still can not seem to comprehend. Is there another language that you are proficient in that I can use????

NO--SATAN IS NOT THE ATONEMENT---JESUS IS!!! He died for our sins---
Satan will die for causing the sins--very simple.
ONLY ONE GOAT DIES--ONLY ONE ATONEMENT NEEDED----JESUS DIED ONCE FOR ALL, NOT TWICE.

1+-0=1

 

[Pneuma3]

The problem is that it doesn’t say that His work is sufficient for all people. I agree that it is.

Yes it does say it was sufficient for all and this scapegoat show it was for all everyone.

What it says is that He is a propitiation for the whole world

And just as the two goats was for all Israel much more is the better sacrifice for the whole world.

Propitiation means that God’s wrath is satisfied. If it’s satified against all sin, then there is no reason that any should be sent to hell. It would be unjust. But we know that His wrath remains on some (John 3:36). So you can’t have His wrath both remaining on some while at the same time be satisfied against all.

The workings of Gods wrath is via the law, the law comes to and end or has no power over those who are in Christ. Thus God does not hold our sins against us however we need our old man crucified or die to self by taking up our cross and following Him.

There is no such thing as what mainstream Christianity call "hell".

 

[Pneuma3]

You still can not seem to comprehend. Is there another language that you are proficient in that I can use????

NO--SATAN IS NOT THE ATONEMENT---JESUS IS!!! He died for our sins---
Satan will die for causing the sins--very simple---perhaps your parents could explain better
ONLY ONE GOAT DIES--ONLY ONE ATONEMENT NEEDED----JESUS DIED ONCE FOR ALL, NOT TWICE.

1+-0=1

Look at the highlight.

10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

The scriptures say the scapegoat makes atonement so unless Satan makes atonement for us then the scapegoat must be Jesus.

 

[Pneuma3]

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

the word is aionios, not aidios. Aidios all scholars agree means eternal. aionios means of uncertain duration and pertains to an age.

Thus they shall go away into age during correction. That correction come via the workings wrath which is the law, which is a ministration of death (to our old man nature) and our schoolmaster that leads back to Christ.

You are incorrect on that, but I know this will be a complete waste of my time. So I’m bowing out now.

Sorry to see you bow out ham, but will leave you with this thought.

Scholars are divided as to the meaning of aionios, and there is much misinformation out there concerning that word and if God is not the God of confusion why would he use a word with so much confusion attached to it when every scholar agrees aidios is the Greek word for eternal?

So why oh why would God not have chosen aidios if those scriptures actually are concerned with mans eternal destiny?

 

[mmksparbud]

Look at the highlight.


The scriptures say the scapegoat makes atonement so unless Satan makes atonement for us then the scapegoat must be Jesus.

Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Only 1 goat shed blood for sin.

 

[Pneuma3]

Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Only 1 goat shed blood for sin.

Two goats representing ONE sacrifice.

You don't seem to understand that they could not use one goat to represent the atonement because then nothing could be shown for the taking away of sin. they needed TWO goat in order to do that.

And the scapegoat is for ATONEMENT, thus must represent Christ. so you can keep your unbiblical stance that Satan is the scapegoat if you prefer but I doubt anyone else will agree with you.

 

[mmksparbud]

Two goats representing ONE sacrifice.

You don't seem to understand that they could not use one goat to represent the atonement because then nothing could be shown for the taking away of sin. they needed TWO goat in order to do that.

And the scapegoat is for ATONEMENT, thus must represent Christ. so you can keep your unbiblical stance that Satan is the scapegoat if you prefer but I doubt anyone else will agree with you.

No one has to agree with me--this is not a contest. Both views have adherents. We will each agree to keep our own views on this. Neither view, actually, is unbiblical.
How can the death of the one goat not be sufficient to portray the removal of sin as there was only one Jesus and one death needed. His death alone removes sin from us---what else did Jesus have to do to remove sins? Was His blood not enough? I still do not see how you have explained the need for 2 when it says that Jesus died once for all and without the shedding of blood there is no removal of sin and the 2nd goat did not shed blood.

 

[Pneuma3]

No one has to agree with me--this is not a contest. Both views have adherents. We will each agree to keep our own views on this. Neither view, actually, is unbiblical.
How can the death of the one goat not be sufficient to portray the removal of sin as there was only one Jesus and one death needed. His death alone removes sin from us---what else did Jesus have to do to remove sins? Was His blood not enough? I still do not see how you have explained the need for 2 when it says that Jesus died once for all and without the shedding of blood there is no removal of sin and the 2nd goat did not shed blood.

No both views are not biblical because Satan has NO PART in our ATONEMENT
and yet scapegoat is for ATONEMENT, and because of your lack of understanding scripture you make Satan a part of the ATONEMENT.

Have you never read that we are reconciled (this is the atonement of the dead goat) by His death but saved by His life (this is the scapegoat that takes away ALL sin)

 

[mmksparbud]

No both views are not biblical because Satan has NO PART in our ATONEMENT
and yet scapegoat is for ATONEMENT, and because of your lack of understanding scripture you make Satan a part of the ATONEMENT.

Have you never read that we are reconciled (this is the atonement of the dead goat) by His death but saved by His life (this is the scapegoat that takes away ALL sin)

LOL--And here I was trying to cut you some slack.
Do you not realize it is Jesus Himself, as our High Priest, who will place all the sins that He paid for on the head of Satan, just as the High Priest placed all the sins of the slain goat on the head of the scapegoat?
Satan blares the blame for al sin
Jesus paid the price. It is biblical, and a correct understanding of the sanctuary service. Believe what you want.

 

[Pneuma3]

LOL--And here I was trying to cut you some slack.
Do you not realize it is Jesus Himself, as our High Priest, who will place all the sins that He paid for on the head of Satan, just as the High Priest placed all the sins of the slain goat on the head of the scapegoat?
Satan blares the blame for al sin
Jesus paid the price. It is biblical, and a correct understanding of the sanctuary service. Believe what you want.

the scapegoat is for atonement, does not matter how much you want it to be Satan it cannot be or Satan has part in our atonement.

And of course the high priest is referring to Jesus as He is the High priest and the sacrifice.

What you are saying now is the high priest is neither goat which leads to the conclusion that Jesus did not die for our sins.

You are wrong here mmk, but like another poster even when shown via a dictionary the meaning of a word refused to believe that was the meaning of the word.

So go ahead and believe Satan has part in our atonement if you must but it is unscriptural and profanes the very sacrifice itself.

 

[bling]

Read all about it in the Talmuds.

Why does everyone say when I state something recorded in Jewish history it is just "speculation?"

Dave, since you are familiar with the Talmud, I was told many years ago that the early Jewish writings did not consider the sin sacrifices as being replacements for them (the bag of flour, doves, lambs or goats were not taking their place), but I have not found that myself do you have anything on that either way?

My understanding is the Day of Atonement only addressed possible sins (sin the people were not even sure they committed? All other sins have been addressed (unintentional sins and rebellious against god sins [including the picking up of sticks on the sabbath])?

You might also address my next post.

 

[bling]

Leviticus 16:5-10
5 And he shall take of the congregation of the children of Israel two kids of the goats for a sin offering, and one ram for a burnt offering. 6 And Aaron shall offer his bullock of the sin offering, which is for himself, and make an atonement for himself, and for his house. 7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation. 8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering. 10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

Leviticus 16:15-22
15 Then shall he kill the goat of the sin offering, that is for the people, and bring his blood within the vail, and do with that blood as he did with the blood of the bullock, and sprinkle it upon the mercy seat, and before the mercy seat: 16 And he shall make an atonement for the holy place, because of the uncleanness of the children of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins: and so shall he do for the tabernacle of the congregation, that remaineth among them in the midst of their uncleanness. 17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. 18 And he shall go out unto the altar that is before the LORD, and make an atonement for it; and shall take of the blood of the bullock, and of the blood of the goat, and put it upon the horns of the altar round about. 19 And he shall sprinkle of the blood upon it with his finger seven times, and cleanse it, and hallow it from the uncleanness of the children of Israel.
20 And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy place, and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: 21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: 22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

Lets take a look at the two goats and who they represent.

Take note of what it says in verse 5 two kids of the goats for a sin offering. The two goats constituted ONE sin offering. Therefore the two goats represent ONE man , JESUS CHRIST.

So lets look at how both goats represent Jesus Christ.

. 9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD’S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
10But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

The first goat shows us that Jesus Christ died for our sins, the scapegoat shows us that Jesus Christ made atonement for us and now we stand without sin before God in Christ. The scapegoat shows us that we are resurrected with Christ. The reason that two goats were used was because the one goat was killed (Jesus Christ dying on the cross) and one goat (the scapegoat) represents the resurrected Lord, for Jesus Christ must both die and be resurrected in order for our atonement.

Nu.29:11 speaks of this.

Numbers 29:11
11ONE kid of the goats for a SIN OFFERING; beside the SIN OFFERING of ATONEMENT, and the continual burnt offering, and the meat offering of it, and their drink offerings.



Heb.9:15-28 brings this out very well, lets look at it.

Hebrews 9:15-28
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. 18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. 19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people, 20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you. 21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry. 22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us: 25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others; 26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away SIN BY THE SACRIFICE OF HIMSELF. 27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: 28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Note that there is only ONE sacrifice mentioned here , not two, the two goats represent Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 3:18
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:



1 John 2:2
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

The word PROPITIATION means ATONEMENT , and the goat killed and the scapegoat was for the ATONEMENT of the world. This show us that the two goats are a representation of Jesus Christ.

John 1:29
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKETH AWAY the sin of the world.

This clearly show that the two goats in reference to Jesus Christ, and as the scapegoat took the sins of all upon its head, even as our head (Jesus Christ) took the sins of all upon himself.

You cannot separate the two goats, they must represent the same person or you make someone other than Jesus Christ our ATONEMENT.

Leviticus 16:30

For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.

If these goats are to represent Christ’s atoning sacrifice (which they do) why are they both or either not slowly tortured to death?

You said this: Jesus Christ, he who was made sin for us who knew no sin. In other words Jesus became humanities azazel.

What does Christ becoming “sin” mean to you? Did Christ become a sinner? Did Christ become an intangible object of “sin”?

If you go to the NIV there is an alternative translation for at the bottom where “sin offering” is given as an alternative to “being made sin” and we all know Christ was a “sin offering”, so what support is there for that translation?

Paul being a scholar of the Torah, used a Hebraism. In this case, the Hebrew word for "sin" was also used to mean "sin offering" (see the Hebrew word: chatta'ath), and thus to be "made sin" was a Hebrew way of saying "made a sin offering". the NASB cross-references to Romans 8:3 which uses "sin offering" in a similar text as 2 Corinthians 5:21

There is the analogy in 2 Corinthians 8:9; the cross-reference to the clearer statement in Romans 8:3 that Christ was sent "in the likeness of sinful flesh" to deal with sin; and the allusion to Sacrifice in 2 Corinthians 5:21 where it says Christ "knew no sin" in corresponding to the sacrificial animal being free of blemish (otherwise Paul saying "knew no sin" would be irrelevant here).

The Greek word for "sin" ,that Paul uses, is used in the Greek Old Testament both to mean "sin" and "sin offering," with both usages even in the same verse such as in Leviticus 4:3.

You can certainly do a deeper study of 2 Cor 5: 21 and we can go into Ro.3-4.

You said: “being one with God is the meaning of atonement”, so where do you find that definition given in scripture?

What do you see as the relationship between atonement and being forgiven?

Is God the one being moved toward man or is man being moved toward God through atonement?


People try to show how all these atonement activities in Lev. 16 are being at least partially like what Christ did and they are, but can we show how these “animals” were representing “sinful humans”? To use Lev. 16 to support the idea: “Christ is our penal substitution”, you need to show the animals were to be penal substitutions for humans in Lev 16?

We can see how the scapegoat is like Christ carrying the guilt of sin outside the city and away from humans, but how is the goat taking my place?

We can see the similarities between the sin sacrifice goat and Christ both are an atonement sacrifice, but how is the sacrificed goat like sinful humans?

The slaughter of animals by the priest was the most humane way of killing an animal at the time, but if they are taking sinful man’s punishment they would at least have to be slowly tortured to death.

The Jews of the time could appreciate the scape goat symbolically carrying their guilt away allow them to but that guilt behind them, but how was that a penal substitution for them (the goat was set free).

The high priest can be easily seen as a substitute for the sinner, but the priest is not a penal substitute?

 

[Gr8Grace]

If it’s satified against all sin, then there is no reason that any should be sent to hell. It would be unjust. But we know that His wrath remains on some (John 3:36).

The problem is evil. Gods wrath is satisfied for ALL sin, but we still have the problem of evil........self justification,self-righteousness,human good.

Notice that unbelievers are judged according to their DEEDS(evil/self righteousness/human good/self justification.) Not their sins........The Lord Jesus Christ paid for ALL sin.

2 Cor 11:15~~New American Standard Bible
Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

Rev 20:12~~New American Standard Bible
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

Rev 20:13~~New American Standard Bible
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.

This is why religion is satans ace trump. And getting people to do "good" and justify themselves......it is actually what unbelievers pay for in the end, Because Jesus died for all their sins.

satan~~"repent of your sins.", "Do your level best."

The Lord Jesus Christ~~"repent of your unbelief of who I am and what I DID for you."