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What a wonderful god you have made. Where oh where do you come up with such silly?
It is called the Holy Bible- you know Gods Inspired Word!
No such animal exists, so there's nothing forgotten.
In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:
4 You should not fear that you were disgraced, nor should you feel ashamed that you were berated. For shame everlasting(aionios) you shall forget; and the scorn of your widowhood in no way shall you remember any longer (Apostolic Bible Polygot, LXX)
The same phrase, and Greek words, for "shame everlasting"(aionios) in Isa.54:4 occur again at Dan.12:2 LXX, which i have higlighted within the brackets:
Dan.12:2 καὶ πολλοὶ τῶν καθευδόντων ἐν γῆς χώματι ἐξεγερθήσονται οὗτοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον καὶ οὗτοι εἰς ὀνειδισμὸν καὶ εἰς [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον]
Isa.54:4 μὴ φοβοῦ ὅτι κατῃσχύνθης μηδὲ ἐντραπῇς ὅτι ὠνειδίσθης ὅτι [αἰσχύνην αἰώνιον] ἐπιλήσῃ καὶ ὄνειδος τῆς χηρείας σου οὐ μὴ μνησθήσῃ
Kata Biblon Wiki Lexicon - ??????? - shame/disgrace/dishonor (n.)
Strong's Greek: 152. αἰσχύνη (aischuné) -- shame
In Isa.54:4 aionios/eonian is finite: "For shame everlasting[eonian] you shall forget".
In that light we might consider that the exact same phrase from the LXX scholars, "shame everlasting [eonian]" in Dan.12:2, may also be finite.
The context of Dan.12:2 suggests the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), since v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".
2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLV)
The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is often used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Dan. 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Dan. 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 could also both be understood as being of finite duration.
Additionally, the early church accepted the following Greek OT translation of the Hebrew OT of Dan. 12:3:
καὶ οἱ συνιέντες ἐκλάμψουσιν ὡς ἡ λαμπρότης τοῦ στερεώματος καὶ ἀπὸ τῶν δικαίων τῶν πολλῶν ὡς οἱ ἀστέρες εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι[and further]
Notice the words at the end saying KAI ETI, meaning "and further" or "and still" or "and yet" & other synonyms.
eti: "still, yet...Definition: (a) of time: still, yet, even now, (b) of degree: even, further, more, in addition." Strong's Greek: 2089. ἔτι (eti) -- still, yet
εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας καὶ ἔτι means "into the ages and further" as a translation of the Hebrew L'OLAM WA ED[5703, AD]
So this early church Greek translation of the Hebrew Scriptures agrees with the above translation (& those below) using the words "and further", "futurity", "beyond" & similarly.
3 and·the·ones-being-intelligent they-shall- warn as·warning-of the·atmosphere
and·ones-leading-to-righteousness-of the·many-ones as·the·stars for·eon and·futurity (Dan. 12:3, Hebrew-English Interlinear)
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf
2 and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence;
3 and, they who make wise, shall shine like the shining of the expanse,—and, they who bring the many to righteousness, like the stars to times age-abiding and beyond. (Dan. 12:2-3, Rotherham)
2 And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life age-during, and some to reproaches—to abhorrence age-during.
3 And those teaching do shine as the brightness of the expanse, and those justifying the multitude as stars to the age and for ever*. (Dan. 12:2-3, YLT)
* for "for ever" Young of YLT says substitute "age during" everywhere in Scripture: http://heraldmag.org/olb/Contents/bibles/ylt.pdf
Dan. 12:2-3 was the only Biblical reference to "life OLAM" Jesus listeners had to understand His meaning of "life aionios"(life OLAM) in Mt.25:46 & elsewhere in the New Testament.
Verse 3 speaks of those justifying "many". Who are these "many"? The same "many" of verse 2, including those who were resurrected to "shame" & "contempt"? IOW the passage affirms universalism?
75 UR verses + 100 proofs + 150 reasons etc:
Web Online Help
In the "inspired word" of the Lord we read it is the will of God ALL mankind will be saved. The koine of course is thelo, not a hope, not a dream, not a maybe: His will!
Your response =
Nada
The word "aionios" occurs in the N.T. sixty nine times of that it is translated as world only 3 times.ClementofA said:No such animal exists, so there's nothing forgotten.
In the Greek Old Testament (LXX, Septuagint) of Isaiah 54:4 the word aionios appears and is used of finite duration:...
The word "aionios" occurs in the N.T. sixty nine times of that it is translated as world only 3 times.
Do those three times determine the meaning or the 66?
My response is horse pucky!!!!!
If the Olam/ aionios/ everlasting contempt is of finite duration, then so isn't the OLAM/aionios/ everlasting life! You cannot have it both ways in one sentence when it is of the same construct and a subject of the same verb (shall awake). No matter what you say, that is bad grammar in every language on the JW scale and their New World Mistranslation!
? said:I read the book Hell on Trial: The Case for Eternal Punishment by Robert Peterson. He makes a solid argument. Would recommend it. He includes this quote from Augustine's City of God,
what a fond fancy is it to suppose that eternal punishment means long continued punishment, while eternal life means life without end, since Christ in the very same passage spoke of both in similar terms in one and the same sentence, "These shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into life eternal!" Matthew 25:46 If both destinies are "eternal," then we must either understand both as long-continued but at last terminating, or both as endless. For they are correlative — on the one hand, punishment eternal, on the other hand, life eternal. And to say in one and the same sense, life eternal shall be endless, punishment eternal shall come to an end, is the height of absurdity. Wherefore, as the eternal life of the saints shall be endless, so too the eternal punishment of those who are doomed to it shall have no end.
Unsupported opinions are meaningless. "Aionios" is translated "world" three times in the NT, like it or not.ClementofA said:The word aionion (eonian) does not mean "world". The word for "world" in the ancient Koine Greek is the word KOSMOS....
Unsupported opinions are meaningless. "Aionios" is translated "world" three times in the NT, like it or not.
"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners ...(127)."ClementofA said:. . .
Have you ever read any of these sources you are quoting or is everything you post second and third hand quotes from Tentmaker or some other website?
"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners ...(127)."
Have you ever read any of these sources you are quoting or is everything you post second and third hand quotes from Tentmaker or some other website?
There are two patently false statements in the above quote. highlighted in red.
The alleged quote from Origen is false and I have corrected you more than once on this.
Origen Commentary On The Gospel Of John Book Thirteen[1]Origen NEVER said "life after eternal life."
(18) For, as there, the bridegroom leaps upon souls that are more noble-natured and divine, called mountains, and skips upon the inferior ones called hills, so here the fountain that appears in the one who drinks of the water that Jesus gives leaps into eternal life.
(19) And after eternal life, perhaps it will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life. For Christ is life; but he who is greater than Christ is greater than life.20[2] Pg. 23
He said ""the fountain....leaps into eternal life.. and after eternal life perhaps it [the fountain] will also leap into the Father who is beyond eternal life."
There is no "life after eternal lie" the only definite thing is God" and perhaps the fountain.
In the same writing Origen quoting Heracleon says, "eternal life" never perishes, remains, is not taken away, not consumed.
(60) And he has explained the statement, “But he shall not thirst forever,” as follows with these very words: For the life he gives is eternal and never perishes, as, indeed, does the first life which comes from the well; the life he gives remains. For the grace and the gift of our Savior is not to be taken away, nor is it consumed, nor does it perish, when one partakes of it.[3] Pg. 80In these two passages Origen contrasts "eternal life " with "corruption"
.....(291) But neither is it possible here to understand the statement “He who reaps receives a reward, and gathers fruit for eternal life” to have reference to the same things as the statement, “He who sows in the flesh, of the flesh shall reap corruption, and he who sows in the spirit, of the spirit will reap eternal life.”
(292) For according to the Apostle’s words, it is the same person who sows and reaps, whether in the flesh or in the spirit, and on this basis reaps either corruption or eternal life. But according to the present words, it is one who sows and another who reaps. Pg 128
(408) These words prove that death is capable of being tasted, “There are some of those standing here who will not taste death,” etc., and the following prove that it can be seen, “If anyone shall keep my word, he will not see death forever.”425Here Origen pairs "forever" with "shall not see death."
(409) Now he who utters words contrary to the words of eternal life tastes death; and not only does he taste it, but he is also filled with death as food.[5] Pg. 289Here Origen contrasts "eternal life" with "death."
[1] Origen. (1993). Commentary on the Gospel according to John Books 13–32. (T. P. Halton, Ed., R. E. Heine, Trans.) (Vol. 89, pp. 67–69). Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press......
.....The second false statement is "Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come." The word "kolasis" occurs only 2 times in the NY and neither time does it refer to "punishment of the age to come.
You keep posting the same false copy/paste arguments over and over and over I will keep refuting them with the facts.ClementofA said:You provided no proof of that. And evidently the reference is to Matthew 25. Here is evidence that the quote is correct:...
You keep posting the same false copy/paste arguments over and over and over I will keep refuting them with the facts.
There is no evidence that the quote is correct. "the age to come." is blatantly false. Matt 25:46 reads "εις κολασιν αιωνιον/eis kolasis aionion" "into punishment eternal" NOT "εις κολασιν αιωνιον μελλουσης/eis kolasin aionion mellousin" "into punishment eternal to come."
Here is a free resource which you might be interested in. The Eastern Greek Orthodox NT.Yes such an animal does exist! The doctrine of eternal punishment did not find its way into Israel until around the time of King David! Until then they believed in soul sleep for all.
Well if you want to use the LXX (which is a translation and the 'english bibles based on it are translations of a translation) That is fine, but be consistent!
Daniel 12:2
Daniel 12:2 King James Version (KJV)
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
If the Olam/ aionios/ everlasting contempt is of finite duration, then so isn't the OLAM/aionios/ everlasting life! You cannot have it both ways in one sentence when it is of the same construct and a subject of the same verb (shall awake). No matter what you say, that is bad grammar in every language on the JW scale and their New World Mistranslation!
And I already read your 75 verses+100 proofs etc. and told you how it is so faulty!
And as I have repeatedly told you, aionios, if it is modified by limiting terms can mean an undetermined duration! Otherwise Greek translators and native greek speakers when speaking of everlasting say ainios (sometime aidios)
Pick out 1-2 of what you think are your best shots. Link me to them and I'll be glad to refute them.ClementofA said:You never answered let alone refuted that post. (You didn't even post in the thread.) Like at least another dozen of my posts.
Irrelevant. You're talking about translation. She wasn't.
And do you deny the punishment is "to come"?
Here is a free resource which you might be interested in. The Eastern Greek Orthodox NT.
Them other folks try to argue against it but they don't have a leg to stand on.
Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, footnote pg.180
Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
XYZ said:It is repeating a line of argument that, so far, you have not even come close to successfully refuting.
XYZ said:It is not an assumption that Matthew 25:46 employs a parallel, but a plain fact.
XYZ said:Let us look at this verse again:
"And these shall go away into eternal (aiōnios) punishment: but the righteous into life eternal (aiōnios)" (Mt.25:26).
Since the structure of this verse is best described as being a "parallelism" then the Greek word aiōnios must carry with it the same meaning in both instances where it is used.
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