Savior of the World, or Eternal Failure?

[ClementofA]

I note that as with most heterodox groups whenever scripture as written contradicts one's doctrine then explain it away by making it figurative; imagery, metaphor. Anyone can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to, doing that

Pot-kettle. You do the same regarding your claim aion/ios always meaning "eternal". Then when shown proof it is finite (e.g. Mt.24:3) you claim it is hyperbole. Even though no expert in the past 10K years agrees with you. Likewise you do with the self contradictory nonsensical translation "forever and ever".

Saying "according to your Thayer Definition, the Rich Man and Lazarus meet all three qualifications." doesn't make it so, absent a cogent explanation.

Pot-kettle again:

Urban Dictionary: Pot, Kettle, Black

You should apply that to all your weak claims of alleged "proof" verses where you allege they prove aionion means "eternal" just because aionion occurs in the same verse as some other word, e.g. "immortal", or just because there is a contrast with something.

One final point my responses are not just for you but for others who might read this thread and be deceived by the false UR narrative.

You might be more convincing if after constantly posting the same materials for years you were able to answer the many refutations in reply to them.

Why would it concern you, anyway, when Christians change their view from ECT or annihilation to UR?

 

[ClementofA]

Hebrews 9:27 King James Version (KJV)
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Not a judgment or a chance to undo the error done in life- but THE judgment.

Judgement, not hopelessness. Judgement, not no more chances for salvation. Judgement, not Love Omnipotent's love has expired like a carton of milk. Judgement, not the hand of the Almighty is impotent to save.

"Anyone who knows anything about the Greek of the New Testament (and elsewhere) knows that extraneous articles are used all the time, and that very frequently it’s not at all meaningful. (The converse holds true, too; and it’s the reason why you don’t see John 1:1c translated as “The Word was a god.”)"

"Then in the second part of the verse they *add* a definite article, ‘the’ in front of the word ‘judgement’. Why is this done? It isn’t hard to imagine that it is done to scare people into submission by convincing them it must be done before they die and it is too late."

"Looking at the most popular English translations, only KJV has “the judgment,” whereas NRSV, NIV, ESV, NASB, NET et al. don’t."

 

[ClementofA]

Of course! Paul said there is a natural body and a spiritual body.

So according to you the "rich man" in Hades (Lk.16) is suffering physical torments even though he left his physical body behind when he died & now has a spiritual non physical body? Does that sum it up?

Well then you need to show that they can escape death and hell (for this is the place of torments). The Bible says they do not leave here until the second resurrection and that has a serious foreboding:

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

This happens after a first round of judgment. See the 2nd death? It is the destruction of death and the grave- and then those not found in the book of life are cast into the lake of fire. And as I showed FL the punishemntof the lake is not corrective but is basinamos- torture!

Well the place of torments has no snow drifts nor is it an equitable comparison! You need to show that after death there is an opportunity to repent!

Rev.5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are on the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb into the eons of the eons.

Rev.15:4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

This sounds like just payback, not endless annihilation or tortures:

Rev.18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

Of course, like all sinners, which all men are before salvation, they must be saved before they can enter the New Jerusalem. That's why it's gates will never be shut.

On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. (Rev.21:25)

The kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it:

24 The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their splendor into it. 25 On no day will its gates ever be shut, for there will be no night there. 26 The glory and honor of the nations will be brought into it.

How can they do that unless they were outside the city gates before?

"In the Book of Revelation, the phrase "kings of the earth" appears 7 times in Rev 6:15; 17:2,18; 18:3,9; 19:19; 21:24. In all but the last citation the kings of the earth are portrayed in Revelation as aligned with Mystery Babylon and are the enemies of God. Yet, in 21:24 we find that the "kings of the earth" will one day bring their splendor into the New Jerusalem. One must therefore ask how or why are the kings of the earth who are consistently and without exception portrayed in Revelation as evil and unrepentant, allowed into the New Jerusalem where "nothing unclean will ever enter it, nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life" (21:27). I cannot find any scriptural evidence that these kings of the earth are any different than the previous references. Therefore the only conclusion I can arrive at is it that appears that even the kings of the earth after having spent some unknown time in the lake of fire will one day repent and be allowed to enter into the New Jerusalem."

That recalls some other passages about kings:

Psalm 72:11
Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.

Psalm 102:15
So the nations will fear the name of the LORD And all the kings of the earth Your glory.

Psalm 138:4
All the kings of the earth will give thanks to You, O LORD, When they have heard the words of Your mouth.

Isaiah 60
2"For behold, darkness will cover the earth And deep darkness the peoples; But the LORD will rise upon you And His glory will appear upon you. 3"Nations will come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising.

Isaiah 62:2
The nations will see your righteousness, And all kings your glory; And you will be called by a new name Which the mouth of the LORD will designate.

Revelation 21:24
By its light the nations will walk, and into it the kings of the earth will bring their glory.


1 Cor.3:15 If any man’s work is burned, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, but as through fire.

The context of Matthew 5:25-26, both before & after those 2 verses, is making references to Gehenna. Verses 21-26 have to do with anger & being reconciled & v.22 warns of Gehenna. In verses 27-30 the subject is adultery & v.30 warns regarding Gehenna.

Matt 5:25-26 Come to terms quickly with your adversary before it is too late and you are dragged into court, handed over to an officer, and thrown in jail. I assure you that you won't be free again until you have paid the last penny.

"They must pay (as GMac says) the uttermost farthing -- which is to say, they must tender the forgiveness of their brethren that is owed, the repentance and sorrow for sin that is owed, etc. Otherwise they do stay in prison with the tormenters. (their guilt? their hate? their own filthiness?) At last resort, if they still refuse to let go that nasty pet they've been stroking, they must even suffer the outer darkness. God will remove Himself from them to the extent that He can do so without causing their existence to cease. As Tom Talbot points out so well, no sane person of free will (and the child must be sane and informed to have freedom) could possibly choose ultimate horror over ultimate delight throughout the unending ages."

Mt.18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to reckon...
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Compare the torment of Mt.18:34 with torment in LOF passages in Rev.14:9-11 & 20:10.

Heb.9:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 A man that hath set at nought Moses' law dieth without compassion on the word of two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Generally capital punishment under Moses' law was by stoning. Stoning to death is not a very sore or long lasting punishment. People suffered far worse deaths via the torture methods of the eternal hell believing Medieval Inquisitionists and the German Nazis under Hitler.

Therefore, if the writer of Hebrews believed that wicked, rebellious, Christ rejectors would be punished with something so monstrous as being endlessly annihilated or tormented, he would not have chosen to compare their punishment to something so lame as being stoned to death. Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[FineLinen]

"Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily." -ClementofA-

That is clearly a most definite NO!

The One who is LOVE incarnate cannot help Himself. He does not love as a mere characteristic,

LOVE is His Essence!

 

[FineLinen]

"Clearly he did not believe Love Omnipotent is an unfeeling terminator machine or sadist who abandons forever the beings He created in His own image & likeness so easily." -ClementofA-

That is clearly a most definite NO!

The One who is LOVE incarnate cannot help Himself. He does not love as a mere characteristic,

LOVE is His Essence!

The following is by Shev. It is a keeper!

When you are tempted to doubt the love of God, ask where love comes from?

Even the basest of people often have family who they love unconditionally. Where does this unconditional love come from, this love that would cause us to die for the sake of a spouse, a child, a family member? Did the human race, tarnished as we are, invent this love, or conceive of it? By no means. When we experience unconditional love within our hearts, we verify that this love exists, and when we know it exists, we know it came from somewhere. And deep down, we all know where it came from, because love is not a thing, Love is God, and God is Love.

I have a daughter who is not yet two. She is often upset with me because I insist on a course of action (not walking towards the busy road, making her go to bed, and so forth) that seems unfair to her childish eyes. If she could talk eloquently by now, I dare say she would struggle to believe I always love her, because so much of her life does not go according to her assumptions, and I often intervene in a way which seems harsh and pointless. But little does she know just how much she is the apple of my eye, and how a smile from her lights up my heart!

Similarly to the above, many of us have read exciting stories in which, should the characters have become aware of the author halfway through, they would have cursed that author for the predicament they have been placed in, little guessing of the wonderful finale that they are heading towards.

Love has been revealed to us. Truly revealed.

God was revealed in Jesus Christ. Christ is revealed in us. This love is a fountain of beauty that shall well up to the healing of the very world. Do not doubt this wondrous, joyful reality. God shall wipe away every tear - think of the imagery. He will not just "stop us crying". He will wipe away tears, which (though symbolic), denotes intimacy and compassion.

Let us face all things like flint for the sake of this Love, for this God, for this Christ, knowing that we are but partway through the story, and like my little sweet daughter, we still do not understand the way in which our Father is harmonizing the events of our lives. Should we see the end now, we would slap our heads and say

"Of course, Father, of course! Of course you love us all, and were weaving all things towards the ultimate blessing of mankind!"

 

[Saint Steven]

It is most regrettable that many Bible translators have been careless in their translation of words that concern the ages. The common thought seems to have been that any age following this present age must be identical with eternity, which, of course, is gross error, and we get ourselves into all manner of confusion by thinking that such is the case. For instance, according to the King James version Jesus, speaking of the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is clearly quoted as saying, "He that blasphemes the Holy Ghost has never forgiveness" (Mk. 3:29). Because of this faulty rendering we have concocted the fallacious notion of an unpardonable sin. But the Emphatic Diaglott translates the passage correctly thus: "Whoever may blaspheme the Holy Spirit has no forgiveness to the age, but is exposed to aionian (age-lasting) judgment." Likewise also the passage in Mat. 12:32...... “Whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." The word world here, as the margin of your Bible will probably indicate, is translated from the Greek word AION, which means age or a period of time. See also Young's Concordance. Hence the translation should be, "It shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming age" (Diaglott). Jesus was born in the age of law. Therefore, when He spoke of this age, He was speaking of the age of law, the age to come being the Church age in which we now live.

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

 

[Der Alte]

Pot-kettle. You do the same regarding your claim aion/ios always meaning "eternal". Then when shown proof it is finite (e.g. Mt.24:3) you claim it is hyperbole. Even though no expert in the past 10K years agrees with you. Likewise you do with the self contradictory nonsensical translation "forever and ever".

Have you read the Eastern Orthodox Greek Bible I have quoted several times? Native Greek speaking scholars agree fully with me. I will quote it again at the bottom since you seem to have ignored it the several times I posted it.

You should apply that to all your weak claims of alleged "proof" verses where you allege they prove aionion means "eternal" just because aionion occurs in the same verse as some other word, e.g. "immortal", or just because there is a contrast with something.

Simple common sense. "aionios" cannot mean "age(s)" if it occurs in the same sentence, with the same subject as "immortality."

Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.​

To prove me wrong find a verse where "aionios" occurs in the same verse, with the same subject with an adjective which means some period less than eternity. I have never found one.
Otherwise other uses of "aionios" must be understood as hyperbole.

You might be more convincing if after constantly posting the same materials for years you were able to answer the many refutations in reply to them.
Why would it concern you, anyway, when Christians change their view from ECT or annihilation to UR?

There have been no, zero, none refutations of my list of verses. Nothing but unsupported opinion. You claim that the verses I posted do not define.

An adjective is a word that describes a noun. There are two kinds: attributive and predicative.
An adjective is used attributively when it stands next to a noun and describes it.
English 101. English Grammar 101: All You Need to Know​

Why does it concern you and other UR-ites that other Christians do not believe in UR? UR-ites are at this forum constantly posting their views, why don't they go off and talk to each other?
.....Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], knows the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..In the EOB, pg. 180 there is this footnote.

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abraham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).​

In the EOB Paul uses “αιονιον/aionon,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.​

In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionon" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf
The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

​

 

[Der Alte]

It is most regrettable that many Bible translators have been careless in their translation of words that concern the ages. The common thought seems to have been that any age following this present age must be identical with eternity, which, of course, is gross error, and we get ourselves into all manner of confusion by thinking that such is the case. For instance, according to the King James version Jesus, speaking of the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, is clearly quoted as saying, "He that blasphemes the Holy Ghost has never forgiveness" (Mk. 3:29). Because of this faulty rendering we have concocted the fallacious notion of an unpardonable sin. But the Emphatic Diaglott translates the passage correctly thus: "Whoever may blaspheme the Holy Spirit has no forgiveness to the age, but is exposed to aionian (age-lasting) judgment." Likewise also the passage in Mat. 12:32...... “Whosoever speaks against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." The word world here, as the margin of your Bible will probably indicate, is translated from the Greek word AION, which means age or a period of time. See also Young's Concordance. Hence the translation should be, "It shall not be forgiven him, neither in this age nor in the coming age" (Diaglott). Jesus was born in the age of law. Therefore, when He spoke of this age, He was speaking of the age of law, the age to come being the Church age in which we now live.
Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby

J.P. Edy lists no Greek qualifications in his own bio, as long as he is quoted as a Greek authority those posts must be refuted.
.....Greek is now, and has always been, the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church. Who, better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the Eastern Orthodox Bible [EOB], know the correct meaning of Greek words, e.g. “Gehenna,””aionios” and “kolasis?”
…..Note, in the EOB, There is this footnote.

Hades is the realm of the dead. The upper part of hades was considered to be luminous and it was called “paradise” or "Abrham's bosom.” Hades is not to be confused with hell (Gehenna) which is the final place of state or place of the damned (“the lake of’ fire”).​

Also in the EOB Paul uses “αιονιον/aionon,” in 1 Tim 1:17 synonymous with “αιδιος/aidios” in Rom 1:20, see below.

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96
Matthew 25:46 Then he will answer them saying ‘Amen. I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' “These [[ones on the left]] will go away into eternal punishment.[κολασιν αιονιον/kolasin aiōnion] but the righteous into eternal life.
= = = = = = =
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world, his invisible things are clearly seen. They perceived through created things, even his everlasting [τε αιδιος/te aidios] power and divinity.
= = = = = = = =
1 Timothy 1:17 Now, to the eternal [των αιωνων/tōn aiōnōn] King. immortal. invisible, to God who alone is wise, be honor and glory unto ages of ages. Amen.
In 1 Tim 1:17 Paul not only uses "aionon" synonymous with "aidios," in Rom 1:20, but also defines it by pairing it with "immortal" in the same verse.
https://azbyka.ru/otechnik/books/or...tament-(The-Eastern-Greek-Orthodox-Bible).pdf​

The Eastern/Greek Orthodox Bible EOB—New Testament 96 can be D/L at the link above. If anyone chooses to consult the EOB version I suggest they read the preface which summarizes the extensive Greek scholarship supporting this translation.

…..In these 9 verses, Jesus defines “aionios/”as “eternal” or “aion/”eternity.
Jesus used the word “aionios” 29 times, He never used “aionios” to refer to something mundane which cannot be eternal.

[1]John 6:58
(58) This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.[αἰώνιος/aionios]​

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[2]John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, and they shall never [ου μη/ou mé] [αἰών/aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

See note on ou mé at bottom. signifies in nowise, by no means, never. In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

[3]John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [αιωνιον] life.
[4] John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [αιωνιον] life.​

In the above two verses Jesus pairs “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

[5]John 5:24
(24) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting [αἰώνιος] life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.​

In this verse Jesus pairs “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless at some point, Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.

[6]John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.

[7]John 4:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
In this verse Jesus contrasts aionios with “shall never thirst.” Aionios cannot mean an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal.​

[8]John 6:27
(27) Labour not for the meat which perisheth, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting [αἰώνιος/aionios] life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him hath God the Father sealed.

In this verse Jesus contrasts “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal
[9]John 8:51
(51) Very truly [αμην αμην/amen amen] I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never [ου μη εις τον αιωνα/ou mé eis ton aiōna] see death."
● The double negative [ου μη/ou mé] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.
Word Studies in the New Testament, Marvin Vincent.
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.[1]
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.​

​

 

[nolidad]

Yup!

"For Christ didn’t enter the earthly version of the Holy Place; he entered the Place Itself, and offered himself to God as the sacrifice for our sins. He doesn’t do this every year as the high priests did under the old plan with blood that was not their own; if that had been the case, he would have to sacrifice himself repeatedly throughout the course of history. But instead he sacrificed himself once and for all, summing up all the other sacrifices in this sacrifice of himself, the final solution of sin.

Everyone has to die once, then face the consequences. Christ’s death was also a one-time event, but it was a sacrifice that took care of sins forever.

And so, when he next appears, the outcome for those eager to greet him is, precisely, salvation." -MSG-

Your questions for today =

1. Is "especially" & "only" synonymous in koine?

2. Does ta pavnte mean the all or tis (some)?

3. Will the Archegos & Prodromos prevail?

Yes Jesus' sacrifice is the final and only solution for sin. But one must believe in this life- in order to benefit from His death in the next life!

Questions:

1. Almost always- no
2. It means the all (or all that are referred to)
3. He has already prevailed as the forerunner or firstborn!

Still waiting for a verse that shows there is repentance in the next life!

gods Word reads that for those who rejected Christ in this life- they will not see life but wrath.

Kolasis, basinomos.

 

[ClementofA]

Have you read the Eastern Orthodox Greek Bible I have quoted several times? Native Greek speaking scholars agree fully with me. I will quote it again at the bottom since you seem to have ignored it the several times I posted it.

Do they translate aion as your definition of it [ = "eternal"] in Mt.24:3? I'd be surprised. And what does your comment have to do with mine you were responding to (in quotes below)? And yes, i have read & responded to it several times (and will again shortly) but, as you said, you don't have much interest in responding to my comments, if you even read them.

"Pot-kettle. You do the same regarding your claim aion/ios always meaning "eternal". Then when shown proof it is finite (e.g. Mt.24:3) you claim it is hyperbole. Even though no expert in the past 10K years agrees with you. Likewise you do with the self contradictory nonsensical translation "forever and ever"."

Simple common sense. "aionios" cannot mean "age(s)" if it occurs in the same sentence, with the same subject as "immortality."

So if someone says: "I will live in this aion until it ends & i will have immortality", according to you aion cannot mean "age" or "eon", eh?

Or if someone says "I will have aionion(eon-ian) life until it ends & i will have immortality, according to you aionion cannot refer to an "age" or "eon", eh?

Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [ἀφθαρσία/apftharsia] he will give eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.
​

To prove me wrong find a verse where "aionios" occurs in the same verse, with the same subject with an adjective which means some period less than eternity. I have never found one.
Otherwise other uses of "aionios" must be understood as hyperbole.

Firstly, that's merely your assumption which you've provided no proven reasoning for & never will be able to do so since it can't be done. Secondly, you previously asked something similar re olam & i gave you a list of verses, as follows:

Irrelevant. If you want to prove that then go through the OT and show verses where "olam" is defined by other words or phrases as I did.

A verse or verses which define/describe olam or ad as eternal/eternity with another adjective, noun or phrase. .

To use your type of reasoning, in Psa.77:5 olam/aionia is opposite "old[qedem]/ancient=744/Gk. Old & ancient are not eternal, but finite. Therefore Olam/aionia are defined/described as finite.

Similarly in Deut.32:7 olam/aion is opposite generations of generations past which are finite. So olam/aion are finite.

Likewise in Isa.51:9 olam is opposite "of old" which is finite. And aion is opposite the "early time"/"days" past, which is finite.

I have considered the days of old, the years of ancient times. (Psa.77:5)
I have reckoned the days of old,[qedem/6924] The years of the ages.[owlam im] (Psa.77:5)
I considered the days of old, and remembered ancient years.[αἰώνια/166] (Psa.77:5, LXX, Brenton)

Deuteronomy 32:7
"Remember the days of old,[owlam] Consider the years of all generations. Ask your father, and he will inform you, Your elders, and they will tell you.
Remember the days of old,[αἰῶνος/165] consider the years for past ages: ask thy father, and he shall relate to thee, thine elders, and they shall tell thee. (Dt.32:7, LXX, Brenton)

Isaiah 51:9
Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in the days of old,[qedem] the generations of long ago[owlam-im]. Was it not You who cut Rahab in pieces, Who pierced the dragon?
Awake, awake, O Jerusalem, and put on the strength of thine arm; awake as in the early time, as the ancient[αἰῶνος/165] generation. (Isa.51:9, LXX, Brenton)

ἐξεγείρου ἐξεγείρου Ιερουσαλημ καὶ ἔνδυσαι τὴν ἰσχὺν τοῦ βραχίονός σου ἐξεγείρου ὡς ἐν ἀρχῇ ἡμέρας ὡς γενεὰαἰῶνος οὐ σὺ εἶ

"...as in [the] beginning of days[2250], as a generation of an eon[165]" (Isa.51:9b, The Apostolic Bible Polygot: Greek English Intelinear [of the LXX], p.968).

 

[nolidad]

The word punishment is from the Greek KOLASIS which means simply that - punishment. But it comes from the root KOLAZO which reveals the true nature of the punishment. KOLAZO according to Strong's Concordance, means "to curtail" or "to chastise". The word means "a pruning" according to Liddell and Scott's Greek English Lexicon. it is so used all through the Greek language. That punishment of which the Christ spoke was the very thing that helped me to see the glorious HOPE for all who are unbelievers or rebellious against God - because the word punishment there means chastisement or pruning. I saw in a moment that it was not the destruction of the man; it was the correcting of the man. it was not the destruction of the tree; it was the cutting back, and the pruning, that it might bring forth fruit. Some rightly reason that KOLASIS cannot mean corrective punishment or pruning if it is everlasting. But everlasting is itself wrong - who ever heard of EVERLASTING CORRECTION! It is age-lasting punishment, age-abiding correction, age-during pruning.

There are those who did not enter into His life in ages past, there are those who do not enter into His life in this present age, and there shall be those who will not enter into His life in the age to come. But in the world where God is the King you can count on it - every man will finally have to face up to his waywardness, and being thoroughly disciplined, broken, and purged of self-will, until he is prepared to respond to the love of Christ, to advance from the realm of punishment into the blessing of HIS LIFE and victory. If you do not punish a criminal for his improvement, for what do you punish him? There are just two right reasons - to protect society and to restore the criminal to society improved by the punishment. The "aionian" punishment which will come to every sinner who goes to hell will be a punishment that will break his stubborn, rebellious spirit and bring him back to God!

Source: The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

You should read past basic dictionaries and lexicons but learn etymology of words. Yes kolasis in its origin was a pruning (cutting off and destroying (See JOhn 15) but grew in time to mean punishment because it means a lopping off originally. No correction but destrution of the pruned material.

There are those who did not enter into His life in ages past, there are those who do not enter into His life in this present age, and there shall be those who will not enter into His life in the age to come. But in the world where God is the King you can count on it - every man will finally have to face up to his waywardness, and being thoroughly disciplined, broken, and purged of self-will, until he is prepared to respond to the love of Christ, to advance from the realm of punishment into the blessing of HIS LIFE and victory. If you do not punish a criminal for his improvement, for what do you punish him? There are just two right reasons - to protect society and to restore the criminal to society improved by the punishment. The "aionian" punishment which will come to every sinner who goes to hell will be a punishment that will break his stubborn, rebellious spirit and bring him back to God!

What I find interesting is that you cannot produce one verse to defend this philosophical argument. There are numerous verses where God repeatedly goes aftert people to repent in this life and chastens and corrects in this life- but not one syllable (except by agenda) to show repentance in the next life. But Hebrews 6 shows there is a situation where it is impossible to restore one to repentance. HHMM?

 

[FineLinen]

Yes Jesus' sacrifice is the final and only solution for sin. But one must believe in this life- in order to benefit from His death in the next life!

Let me introduce you to the God of "un"!

What do you mean you have never heard of Him Noli? ?

Take your grasp of limited & place un before it.

Shazam! The God of Unlimited.

 

[nolidad]

Let me introduce you to the God of "un"!

What do you mean you have never heard of Him Noli? ?

Take your grasp of limited & place un before it.

Shazam! The God of Unlimited.

And all you need do to convince me is show me a verse that the lost in the after life havean opportunity to repent like there are enormous amounts of verses showing that those in this life have many opportunities to repent.

 

[FineLinen]

What I find interesting is that you cannot produce one verse to defend this philosophical argument. There are numerous verses where God repeatedly goes aftert people to repent in this life and chastens and corrects in this life- but not one syllable (except by agenda) to show repentance in the next life. But Hebrews 6 shows there is a situation where it is impossible to restore one to repentance. HHMM?

You gigantic silly: I assume you know what it means to be in Christ?

There are two little letters you must become accustomed to when discussing Abba's ultimate intention.

Every knee, every tongue, every dimension of heavens, earth & underworld worshipping "en" His Name.

Yup, in = en in koine.

 

[FineLinen]

And all you need do to convince me is show me a verse that the lost in the after life havean opportunity to repent like there are enormous amounts of verses showing that those in this life have many opportunities to repent.

In the first place repentance is given to the broken wrecks of sin and despair.

Secondly, the "enormous" verses of "many opportunities" are non existent for at least 15k children who die today, & every day worldwide, as vessels of original sin called depravity.

We sin because that is our broken nature as one of Adam's children.

 

[nolidad]

The definition of parable is any story that is intended to teach, particularly in having moral instruction as an ulterior motive.

Just before this parable, Jesus tells another parable about wealth (Luke 16:1–13)—and the passage in between (16:14–18) finds Jesus rebuking the Pharisees for loving money, exalting themselves in self-justification, and ignoring the Old Testament’s authority. All three themes are woven into the parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus. We have the rich man’s love of money, his self-importance even in Hades, and his rejection of divine revelation.

Jesus knew exactly what He was doing.

Well if you accept that some parables are ture stories as told and not sotries using comparisons, I could live with the definition.

We die, then judgment, then God, then mercy.

Mercy triumphs over judgment. Mercy will always have the last word. Jesus has already told us that He is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end. If you believe that judgment is the end of the story then you have not read far enough.

And all you UR'ers have to do is show form scripture that the aionios kolasis is temporary and then why the aionions zoes is not !

I see lots of verses that show nothing but gloom and doom for unbelievers in the after life, but not one verse that shows they can say sorry and be pulled out of the lake of fire!

Revelation 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

 

[nolidad]

In the first place repentance is given to the broken wrecks of sin and despair.

Secondly, the "enormous" verses of "many opportunities" are non existent for at least 15k children who die today, & every day worldwide, as vessels of original sin called depravity.

We sin because that is our broken nature as one of Adam's children.

How you love twisting others words.

The Bible is replete with passages calling on people to repent. And every day over 1,000,000 people die, the majority going to the place of torments ans Jesus said!

Yes repentance is given to those whom God has broken! Those who live in the human nature cannot do that as God said in His Word.

 

[FineLinen]

And all you UR'ers have to do is show form scripture that the aionios kolasis is temporary and then why the aionions zoes is not !

I see lots of verses that show nothing but gloom and doom for unbelievers in the after life, but not one verse that shows they can say sorry and be pulled out of the lake of fire!

Perhaps you missed the declaration Noli. The alert went out, how did you miss it?

From Him ta pavnte, through Him ta pavnte, for Him ta pavnte.

 

[nolidad]

You gigantic silly: I assume you know what it means to be in Christ?

There are two little letters you must become accustomed to when discussing Abba's ultimate intention.

Every knee, every tongue, every dimension of heavens, earth & underworld worshipping "en" His Name.

Yup, in = en in koine.

Not only do you love twisitng peoples Words, but now with your bold emphasis you have twisted God's Word to fir your agenda! That is a shame!

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Phil 2:10:
New International Version
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

New Living Translation
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

English Standard Version
so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Berean Study Bible
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

Berean Literal Bible
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in the heavens and on earth and under the earth,

New American Standard Bible
so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

New King James Version
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,

King James Bible
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Christian Standard Bible
so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow--in heaven and on earth and under the earth--

Contemporary English Version
So at the name of Jesus everyone will bow down, those in heaven, on earth, and under the earth.

Good News Translation
And so, in honor of the name of Jesus all beings in heaven, on earth, and in the world below will fall on their knees,

Holman Christian Standard Bible
so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow-- of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth--

International Standard Version
And so, when Jesus' name is called, the knees of everyone should fall, wherever they're residing.

NET Bible
so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow--in heaven and on earth and under the earth--

New Heart English Bible
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth,

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
That in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth,

GOD'S WORD® Translation
so that at the name of Jesus everyone in heaven, on earth, and in the world below will kneel

New American Standard 1977
that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth,

King James 2000 Bible
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

American King James Version
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

American Standard Version
that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,

Douay-Rheims Bible
That in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those that are in heaven, on earth, and under the earth:

Darby Bible Translation
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of heavenly and earthly and infernal [beings],

English Revised Version
that in the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things on earth and things under the earth,

Webster's Bible Translation
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things on earth, and things under the earth;

Weymouth New Testament
in order that in the Name of JESUS every knee should bow, of beings in Heaven, of those on the earth, and of those in the underworld,

World English Bible
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth,

Young's Literal Translation
that in the name of Jesus every knee may bow -- of heavenlies, and earthlies, and what are under the earth --

Phil. 2: 11

New International Version
and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

New Living Translation
and every tongue declare that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

English Standard Version
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Berean Study Bible
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Berean Literal Bible
and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

New American Standard Bible
and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

New King James Version
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

King James Bible
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Christian Standard Bible
and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Contemporary English Version
And to the glory of God the Father everyone will openly agree, "Jesus Christ is Lord!"

Good News Translation
and all will openly proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

International Standard Version
Then every tongue in one accord, will say that Jesus the Messiah is Lord, while God the Father praising.

NET Bible
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

New Heart English Bible
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
And every tongue shall confess that Yeshua The Messiah is THE LORD JEHOVAH to the glory of God his Father.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.

New American Standard 1977
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

King James 2000 Bible
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

American King James Version
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

American Standard Version
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Douay-Rheims Bible
And that every tongue should confess that the Lord Jesus Christ is in the glory of God the Father.

Darby Bible Translation
and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord to God [the] Father's glory.

English Revised Version
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Webster's Bible Translation
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Weymouth New Testament
and that every tongue should confess that JESUS CHRIST is LORD, to the glory of God the Father.

World English Bible
and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Young's Literal Translation
and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Just think , not one of these translations renders the verse the way you do! I wonder why?????

Not even the greek!

 

[FineLinen]

How you love twisting others words.

The Bible is replete with passages calling on people to repent. And every day over 1,000,000 people die, the majority going to the place of torments ans Jesus said!

Yes repentance is given to those whom God has broken! Those who live in the human nature cannot do that as God said in His Word.

Yup: every day our God continues to lose those for whom He is the at-one-ment?

Wake up silly!

The polus made sinners are the identical polus made righteous.

Every last broken and bruised sinner!