Saved without being baptized?

[UgL_Quicksilver]

Okay this is a touchy subject and I was just woundering what everyone believes. Can you or can you not be saved and go to heaven without being baptized?

I personaly belive you cannot......and i base that on what the Bible says.....below is a typing of a phamplet that i recived that I think points it out well........


7 REASONS WHY ONE CANNOT BE SAVED WITHOUT BAPTISM
SAVED WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED???

There are some people that teach baptism is not necessary to be saved. I would like to point out a few facts, that being saved without baptism would mean:

(1) IT WOULD BE WITHOUT OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS
In Matthew 3:15 "Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness then he suffered him"
Note what Paul said in Romans 6:17 "But God be thanked that you were the servants of sin but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you"

(2) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT FORGIVENESS OF SINS
Peter said in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost"

(3) IT WOULD MEAN WITHOUT HAVING YOUR SINS WASHED AWAY.
Note: Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord"

(4) IT WOULD MEAN WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH
Note: Romans 6:3 "Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death"

(5) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED OUTSIDE THE BODY OF CHRIST
Note Galations 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on christ" Also see John 14:16

(6) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT BEING SAVED
Peter said in 1st Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

(7) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT THE OPERATION OF GOD
Paul said in Col. 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him from the dead"


Written by: Jesse Owens, Elder
Lynchburg Church of Christ
898 Leesville Road
Lynchburg, Virginia 24502

 

[Tonks]

Are you talking solely about water baptism or does your question cover baptism by blood and baptism by desire?

 

[UgL_Quicksilver]

I am talking about Baptisim as a whole.....Baptisim by what the Bible says

 

[ps139]

So how was the good thief on the cross saved?


(BTW I do believe he was baptized, and that baptism is necessary, I am just curious as to your answer)

 

[UgL_Quicksilver]

That is easy to answer.....

He was talking directly to Jesus, and what Jesus says happens....

Plus, being saved for baptisim is for after christs death. We need to be baptized into christ's death, just as the above statement says.

But i hope that answers it.

 

[oneshot012]

Then if that is the case how does that square with this"
Romans 10:

9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Hey I am all for baptism and everything (though I haven't been yet I am waiting till January when we go to our Middle East trip to be baptized in the Jordan) I really see all the spiritual benfits of it but I don't understand how that can be true in light of this scripture. Now if you would like to present to me exegetically how that can be true then do so. But I just don't see how you can have this truth right here in scripture and the converse be true because that would mean that Romans 10:13 isn't true and niether is 10:9 or 10:10.

I have always seen it this way:
Epesians 2:
8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[Schroeder]

Okay this is a touchy subject and I was just woundering what everyone believes. Can you or can you not be saved and go to heaven without being baptized?

I personaly belive you cannot......and i base that on what the Bible says.....below is a typing of a phamplet that i recived that I think points it out well........


7 REASONS WHY ONE CANNOT BE SAVED WITHOUT BAPTISM
SAVED WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED???

There are some people that teach baptism is not necessary to be saved. I would like to point out a few facts, that being saved without baptism would mean:

(1) IT WOULD BE WITHOUT OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS
In Matthew 3:15 "Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness then he suffered him"
Note what Paul said in Romans 6:17 "But God be thanked that you were the servants of sin but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you"

how can one be obediant outside of salvation. not saved by works so no one can boast. and lessen the cross.

(2) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT FORGIVENESS OF SINS
Peter said in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost"

remember forgiveness is through christ and his blood which covers our sins. the Spirit washes them away. Peter is at this time still holding on to jewish ideas of them being the one people that God is working through and he is still thinking of jewish traditions and ideas. he is corrected we see in Acts 10-11. read Acts 10:42.

(3) IT WOULD MEAN WITHOUT HAVING YOUR SINS WASHED AWAY.
Note: Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord"

This doesnt mean water and Paul would no that since he states in 1 Cor 1:13 that he was not sent to water baptize. And again if it is it is indicated that anainis was a devout jew which would indicate being true to the law, which would mean he would say water does this because it did in the Law. Titus 3:5 shows the Spirit wahing sins away and cleansing us.

(4) IT WOULD MEAN WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH
Note: Romans 6:3 "Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death"

Rom 6 is not speaking of water at all. we are united into the body by the SPirit 1 Cor 12:13 who is the body Christ. Also the Spirit is the only thing that gives birth to the Spirit. Christ is in Spirit so the only way to join into the Spirit is by the Spirit. John 3:6 we are joined into his death not figuratively but actually. so this could not be water.

(5) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED OUTSIDE THE BODY OF CHRIST
Note Galations 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on christ" Also see John 14:16

man what was the use of the cross if water could do so much. this is only saying iinto union with doesnt mean water or spirit. though it could be Spirit because 1 cor 12:13 says how.

(6) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT BEING SAVED
Peter said in 1st Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

explains itself right there not a physical baptism but spiritual. Water does not save only christ saves by the Spirit. his baptism john the baptist spoke of. have you forgotten this one. Acts 15:8 Gods now the heart of man.

(7) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT THE OPERATION OF GOD
Paul said in Col. 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him from the dead"

Again it is a actual event not a figurative event. God says he saves by Grace not by works you do. you are saved when you believe in his sons work and obediance. Rom 3-5

 

[Tonks]

Then if that is the case how does that square with this"

I would say it is because you're taking a verse of the Bible in isolation to prove your point when the actual underpinnings of the Christian faith rely on the Good Book in its totality.

 

[Lynn73]

If baptism was absolutely necessary to be saved, it should've been included in the reply given to the Philippian jailor when he asked what must he do to be saved. He was asking a sincere question with eternal consequences and if water baptism was essential, it should've been included in the answer but it wasn't.

 

[Jig]

It's not that actual water of the baptism or even the process of baptism that saves. It is the underlying faith one is proclaiming with such an act. If it wasn't for that faith behind it, the baptism itself would be pointless.

Thats why in Rom. 10:9-10: it states that confessing with ones mouth (which could be during baptism or not) that Jesus is Lord will save you. It is the true intention of ones heart and mind that leads to salvation.

Though, I will admit there is no reason NOT to get baptized. It allows you to publicly profess your faith to those who don't have direct access to your heart and mnd, like God does.

Also, if what you were saying was true, then deathbed confessions of Christ and forgivness are worthless to God. I highly doubt God will say to them, "Look I'm sorry, I know your truely sorry and now understand Jesus died for you, but you didn't get dunked in water, my hands are tied."

 

[kayleigh]

I was baptized, but I have every confidence that if I had died the day before I was baptized I would be in heaven right now. The waters of baptism have now saving grace. There is no Biblical evidence of that at all. Being baptised is an act of obedience to God (Matthew 28:19-20) and a way to associate yourself with Christ. The topic of baptism is one that I am currently studying. When we are baptized the we are directly associating ourselves with the name of Jesus Christ. While it does not save us, baptism is a way to show the world that we are Christians. Baptism did not forgive my sins. Christ forgave all of them when He died on the cross. That is why He died on the Cross, why would someone want to take saving grace and the gift of eternal life from Christ and put it in water? (John 14:6). Some of what I have said may have already said. But in conclusion, read John 14:6. No one can get to God in any other way but Jesus!

 

[BarbB]

Kayleigh - I agree with what you said!

And welcome to CF!

 

[Distant_Shores]

word up

 

[KEPLER]

Okay this is a touchy subject and I was just woundering what everyone believes. Can you or can you not be saved and go to heaven without being baptized?

I personaly belive you cannot......and i base that on what the Bible says.....below is a typing of a phamplet that i recived that I think points it out well........


7 REASONS WHY ONE CANNOT BE SAVED WITHOUT BAPTISM
SAVED WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED???

There are some people that teach baptism is not necessary to be saved. I would like to point out a few facts, that being saved without baptism would mean:

(1) IT WOULD BE WITHOUT OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS
In Matthew 3:15 "Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness then he suffered him"
Note what Paul said in Romans 6:17 "But God be thanked that you were the servants of sin but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you"

(2) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT FORGIVENESS OF SINS
Peter said in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost"

(3) IT WOULD MEAN WITHOUT HAVING YOUR SINS WASHED AWAY.
Note: Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord"

(4) IT WOULD MEAN WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH
Note: Romans 6:3 "Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death"

(5) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED OUTSIDE THE BODY OF CHRIST
Note Galations 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on christ" Also see John 14:16

(6) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT BEING SAVED
Peter said in 1st Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

(7) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT THE OPERATION OF GOD
Paul said in Col. 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him from the dead"


Written by: Jesse Owens, Elder
Lynchburg Church of Christ
898 Leesville Road
Lynchburg, Virginia 24502

Ugl_Quicksilver...

It is very important to note that this "tract" was written by someone from the "Church of Christ" (CoC) which is a specific and very legalistic denomination. The CoC teaches that Baptism is a work of obedience (Point #1 in his tract). The CoC is a sect/cult* which denies Justification by Grace through Faith. No other Christian denomination holds this belief about baptism! Not even the Roman Catholic Church would go so far as to say that a person can't be saved without baptism. The Lutherans (which is what I am) and the Roman Catholics (and Presybeterians, Methodists, Anglicans and even (to a certain extent) Baptists) are in agreement on this point, that Baptism is VERY important, but none of us would say that a person who honestly desired and/or had plans to be baptized was not indeed saved.

God has promised that he uses Baptism to attach the benefits of Christ's death and resrection to us (Romans 6), but He has also demonstrated that in a pinch, He (who is all powerful) can do otherwise as well.

It is important to note that in the NT descriptions of Baptism, it is God who works through Baptism to get to us and give to us the benefits of Chrits's work. But clearly, there are exceptions, such as the thief on the Cross. Kayleigh's example of getting hit by a car the day before you're baptized is perfect: of course that person would be saved, because they have not denied the Grace of God.

The Coc, on the other hand, does deny the Grace of God. Baptism is a work of obedience to them: an act of man. IN their theology, it is not an act of God as the Scriptures say it is. The CoC is MUCH more in line with Mormonism on this issue than with ANY Christian denomination. Stay away from them!

*I realize that by saying this, I am skirting on the edge of the Rules here; but by way of defense, I would point out that several Universities around the country who otherwise allow Christian organizations on their campuses (like Intervarsity Fellowship, Campus Crusade, and the Newman Center Fellowship) have banned the Church of Christ because of its radical and aggressive proselityzing. My own University (the overall University of California sytem, is one such University. Boston College has also banned them, I think.)

 

[KEPLER]

I was baptized, but I have every confidence that if I had died the day before I was baptized I would be in heaven right now. The waters of baptism have now saving grace. There is no Biblical evidence of that at all. Being baptised is an act of obedience to God (Matthew 28:19-20) and a way to associate yourself with Christ. The topic of baptism is one that I am currently studying. When we are baptized the we are directly associating ourselves with the name of Jesus Christ. While it does not save us, baptism is a way to show the world that we are Christians. Baptism did not forgive my sins. Christ forgave all of them when He died on the cross. That is why He died on the Cross, why would someone want to take saving grace and the gift of eternal life from Christ and put it in water? (John 14:6). Some of what I have said may have already said. But in conclusion, read John 14:6. No one can get to God in any other way but Jesus!

Your first couple of lines are correct, but then you go off course. Yes, it identifies us, but it does much more than that! Scripture explcitly says baptism "saves" us (1 Peter 3:21). God saves us by using baptism to attach to us the benefits of Christ's actions for us (Romans 6, which is speaking about WATER baptism!). And Peter also explicitly states for us to "be baptized and receive the forgiveness of sins" in Acts 2:38.

Keep studying; you'll get it!

 

[Jipsah]

Can you or can you not be saved and go to heaven without being baptized?

Did the malefactor on the cross go to Heaven or nay?

No magic in the water.

 

[Jipsah]

He was talking directly to Jesus, and what Jesus says happens....

Since it's our Lord Who does the saving in every case, then what He says will still happen, won't it? You can't really lay a bunch of rules on the Lord and say "it has to be like this".

Plus, being saved for baptisim is for after christs death.

Where did the Lord tell us that the rules had changed? "Oh, I used to save folks without them being dipped, but I don't any more."

 

[KEPLER]

remember forgiveness is through christ and his blood which covers our sins. the Spirit washes them away. Peter is at this time still holding on to jewish ideas of them being the one people that God is working through and he is still thinking of jewish traditions and ideas. he is corrected we see in Acts 10-11. read Acts 10:42.

Scroeder,

Your objections to the tract are well-intentioned, but not very well-informed by Scripture. In other words, you are right, but for the wrong reasons. Your understanding of both Acts 2 and Acts 10 are seriously flawed.

Peter is absolutely NOT holding on to ANY Jewish ideas in his Pentecost speech. This speech is a description of the normal Christian view of Baptism. Peter's mistakes concerned the keeping of the JEWISH laws, specifically circumcision and dietary laws.

Get this straight, BAPTISM was NOT something Peter got wrong!

Peter says baptism is for the forgiveness of sins here, and he also says it in his first letter (1 Peter 3:21). But Paul's letter make it clear that it is not the act of getting baptized that saves. The reality is that God has promised to work through Baptism in order to attach the benefits of Christ's saving work to us: see Romans 6, "in our baptism we are buried with Christ in order that we may be raised to new life in Him."

Now God can certainly work other ways in a pinch, which we see in the Scripture where Jesus makes His prmoise to the thief on the cross. But for the consolation of our consciences, God gave us Baptism, that we may remember that He has saved us through Christ! This is why Paul is constantly tellling his readers to remember their baptisms. It is a blessed thing which God has provided.

Pax Christi tibi,

Eric

 

[S Walch]

Quick FYI - Whenever the bible refers to "Baptism" - IT IS NOT ALWAYS REFERING TO BAPTISM BY WATER.

Jesus didn't come to baptize in water - but via the Holy Spirit.

As stated by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:7-8, Luke 3:16, and John 1:33.

Basically, ALL the Gospels state that Jesus will baptise not with water, but with the holy spirit.

Therefore we have two baptisms in the new Testiment - One via water, and one via the Holy Spirit.

Which passages refer to which?

 

[Hackett]

I have had some folds use 1 Peter 3 as an agrument that Baptism is a requirement for salvation:
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

What say you?