Saved without being baptized?

[KEPLER]

Quick FYI - Whenever the bible refers to "Baptism" - IT IS NOT ALWAYS REFERING TO BAPTISM BY WATER.

Jesus didn't come to baptize in water - but via the Holy Spirit.

As stated by John the Baptist in Matthew 3:11, Mark 1:7-8, Luke 3:16, and John 1:33.

Basically, ALL the Gospels state that Jesus will baptise not with water, but with the holy spirit.

Therefore we have two baptisms in the new Testiment - One via water, and one via the Holy Spirit.

Which passages refer to which?

BZZZZZZZ!

Wrong answer, you lose. Thanks for playing. Better luck next time!

Please explain to me why the Eunuch in Acts 8 got so impatient to find some water?

Please explain why in Acts 10:40-50 (or thereabouts) when Peter is so concerened that the Gentiles (who have not been baptized with water) have receievd the Holy Spirit, he QUICKLY sets about to "fix" the situation by getting them Baptized??? Peter clearly thought they belonged together!

The New Testament understanding is that Baptism with the Spirit happens WHEN a person is baptized with water. Jesus' statement (not water, but the Spirit) is to be uderstood that it's not the water itself that is the effective thing, but the Spirit that is working through the water. Yes, you read that right: the Spirit works through the water.

God, as it happens, has a long and beautiful history of working through physical objects! Objects like a rock that gave forth water, a snake on a stick that healed those who gazed upon it, a bush that burned but was not consumed, a pillar of cloud that the Jews followed...and (my personal favorite!)... a baby in a manger (who, as it turns ut, actually was God!)

DO NOT quench the Spirit by trying to SEPARATE the Spirit from the things which God has said He will use!!!

 

[KEPLER]

I have had some folds use 1 Peter 3 as an agrument that Baptism is a requirement for salvation:
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: 22Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

What say you?

Hackett,

This is a most excellent piece of Scripture for teaching about baptism. But the term "requirement" is a bit problematic, isn't it?

That makes baptism sound like an act of men, doesn't it? But the NT teaches us that baptism is an act of God, through which He works to get to us!

See my previous posts.

Cheers,

Eric

 

[S Walch]

BZZZZZZZ!

Wrong answer, you lose. Thanks for playing. Better luck next time!

Please exaplin to me why the Eunuch in Acts 8 got so impatient to find some water?

Erm, it doesn't say he get's impatient - Infact, all it mentions is this:
36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"

Nowhere does it say the Enuch was LOOKING for some water - more than the fact they came TO some water.

Please explain why in Acts 10:40-50 (or thereabouts) when Peter is so concerened that the Gentiles (who have not been baptized with water) have receievd the Holy Spirit, he QUICKLY sets about to "fix" the situation by getting them Baptized??? Peter clearly thought they belonged together!

Which he then explains in chapter 11:

15"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

Peter had Forgotten what God had said and was trying, how shall we say, 'to put new wine in Old wine skins.'

The New Testament understanding is that Baptism with the Spirit happens WHEN a person is baptized with water.

Then how can it be, that in your own quoted scripture (Acts 10:44-45) that the people who hadn't had been baptised yet were given the gift of the Holy spirit? Obviously you don't have to be baptised in water to be baptised in the Holy Spirit

44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. 45 The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Jesus' statement (not water, but the Spirit) is to be uderstood that it's not the water itself that is the effective thing, but the Spirit that is working through the water. Yes, you read that right: the Spirit works through the water.

HA! There is absolutely nowhere in scripture that says God works via baptism of water. Nice twist I must say.

Also, don't accuse me of things, which the rest of your post from hereon does.

 

[oneshot012]

I would say it is because you're taking a verse of the Bible in isolation to prove your point when the actual underpinnings of the Christian faith rely on the Good Book in its totality.

Clearly then you do not understand the book of Romans friend:

First of all Romans is one of Paul's greatest theological works in the whole of the NT and contains what most theologians call the mount everest of scripture Romans 8. But seeing how we come from different view points we are definately not seeing eye to eye none the less I will continue.

Paul starts off in the book of Romans by expounding upon the state of which people are in today and how lost they are and ends up with what seems to be a great summary verse of Romans in chapter 3 verse 23:

23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Then Paul beings to illustrate salvation apart from the law and works and how it is Justification by faith and you being a Catholic would disagree but it again is clear in scripture that Abraham believed God and it was credited to him as righteousness. Clearly a salvation by faith but of course accompained by good works and if you would like to use more of scripture than just Romans here is Ephesians for you in chapter 2 verses 8, 9 and 10:

8For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Clearly we were saved for works but not by works. Anyways onward with Romans.

Then Paul uses Abraham in chapter 4 to show we are we are justified (being made righteous) using the example of Abraham. Then in verse 9:

FAITH WAS CREDITED TO ABRAHAM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Clearly God had justified him by believing.


Then in chapter 5 Paul discusses the benifit of justification:
verse 1: we have peace with God
verse 2: we are introduced into grace
verse 9: we are saved from the wrath of God
verse 10: we are reconciled to God


Then in chapters 6-7 Paul discusses the issue of santification: of being baptized into Christ's death and dying to sin.

Chapter 8 deals with the work of the Holy Spirit in a believers life.

Chapter 9 then begins to deal with Israel there election and there present state.

Then at the end of chapter 9 Paul says why Israel missed it and the Gentiles got it:

30What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; 31but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,

The Gentiles got righteousness by faith not by the keeping the law were the Jews tried to pursue the righeousness of the law clearly leading to there stumbling.

Then in Chapter 10 in verse 4 Paul states:

4For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Not to everyone who is baptized but believes. He (Jesus) ends reaching righteousness (justification) by the law but now allows us to have it by belief in him.

Then this allows Paul to say in verse 9-13:


9that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. 11For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 12For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; 13for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
Clearly Paul was working out the doctrine of salvation in the book of Romans. Here we see Paul expound on the concepts of justifcation (being made righteous), santification (process of being conformed in to the image of Christ). I do not see anywhere in the book were Paul lays out the necessity of being baptized to be saved but does lay it out for the process of santification.

Baptism is i believe a necessary part of santification but not of justification and justification is what we call salvation. Yes I know there is a difference in the greek words but the two are extremely overlapping. The word for righteousness normally is referrin to our relationship with God were salavation or being saved has a much broader meaning.

Anyways hope this blesses everyone.

Any questions comments or concerns I will get to when I can.

Sorry for any spelling or grammatical errors.

 

[KEPLER]

S Walch,

Let's start with the end first...

Also, don't accuse me of things, which the rest of your post from hereon does.

Well I said that by separating the Holy Spirit from baptism which you undeniably do when you say,

Jesus didn't come to baptize in water - but via the Holy Spirit.

that you end up quenching the Spirit. I think that's fair.

You fail to acknowledge all the instances where God does indeed work through physical means...why did you not deal with those? Do you deny that God has? Do you deny that God can? Perhaps you deny the very Incarnation of Christ?

No, I don't think you do...but you should consider that denying that God works through physical means WILL have theological consequences down the line...

As for the rest, sorry, but you've still got it completely wrong.

Erm, it doesn't say he get's impatient - Infact, all it mentions is this:
36 As they traveled along the road, they came to some water and the eunuch said, "Look, here is water. Why shouldn't I be baptized?"

Nowhere does it say the Enuch was LOOKING for some water - more than the fact they came TO some water.

Uh, my point wasn't about immediacy, now was it? It was about water! So whether or not he was technically "impatient", AS SOON AS they saw water, the Ethiopian stops the chariot and says, "Hey, let's get this done right now!" Perhaps, I ought to have used the word eager, rather than impatient, but as I said, that was hardly my point. His eagerness is demonstrated also by his earlier asking to have the scroll from isiaiah explained to him.

When you said:

Jesus didn't come to baptize in water - but via the Holy Spirit.

you implied water wasn't important. The episode with the Ethiopian says it was.

Now as for unbiblically separating Spirit and Water baptism...

[snip...cut & paste from another post]

First of all, Peter says in Acts 2:38: "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." This is the normative passage for the entire New Testament. Christ had by this point ascended and the coming of the Spirit had followed, as promised (Acts 1:18). From now on, the Spirit would come in Baptism. There were two exceptions to this in the early Church, and each exception had a clear purpose behind it!!

In Acts 8:14-16, Peter and John pray for a group of believers in Samaria who had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, but had not yet received the Holy Spirit. The apparent reason for the "delay" of Pentecost in Samaria is found in the verses around the account: it was so that the Holy Spirit would not be confused with the other spirits which were present in Samaria. Peter and John were there to rebuke the "users" of the other spirits, and testify to the uniquneness of the Holy Spirit.

In Acts 10:44, we have an account of people being filled with the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized, with the intention of testifying to the Jewish Christians that Gentiles were also being called to follow Jesus (which Peter later explains in Acts 11:9-17): "The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles." (Acts 10:45) Nevertheless, Peter clearly thinks that this is strange, and insists that they be baptized forthwith.

So, the ONLY cases where Baptism and the Spirit were separated had clear theological reasons for doing so, and reasons that were associated with the witness of the nascent Church. They are not examples to be expected of an established and growing Church.

15"As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.' 17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

Peter had Forgotten what God had said and was trying, how shall we say, 'to put new wine in Old wine skins.'

Nope, sorry. Peter is contrasting the baptism of John with the Baptism of Jesus -- which is with water by the Holy Spirit. Paul makes the exact same contrast later in Acts 19:4-6:

And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying.

Whoa! Would you look at that? Baptism of Jesus is accompanied by the Holy Spirit! Fascinating!

HA! There is absolutely nowhere in scripture that says God works via baptism of water. Nice twist I must say.

Hmmm...

Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Well, that's one. It says plain and simple that Christ washes us: God is the active agent in our baptisms. (And please don't make a nuisance of yourself by trying to say that "washing" isn't a reference to Baptism. Of course it is. To deny that is peurile.)

We are cleansed by baptism:

But when the kindness and love of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us generously through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

For Christ died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.

Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life.

See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in him, who is the head of all rule and authority. In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him.

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, with our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.

"And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, came to me, and standing by me said to me, 'Brother Saul, receive your sight.' And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. And he said, 'The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on His name.'"

No commentator worth his salt will deny that all of these verses are speaking of water baptism.

God works through Baptism. Why would anyone in their right mind want to deny such a beautiful gift?

 

[KEPLER]

Oneshot,

That's a pretty good reply...except that you glossed over Romans 6.

Baptism is the means by which God applies the merits of Christ's work to us.

That's kind of an important point, and that's why Paul put it right there in the middle of everything, don't you think?

 

[Theophorus]

Okay this is a touchy subject and I was just woundering what everyone believes. Can you or can you not be saved and go to heaven without being baptized?

I personaly belive you cannot......and i base that on what the Bible says.....below is a typing of a phamplet that i recived that I think points it out well........


7 REASONS WHY ONE CANNOT BE SAVED WITHOUT BAPTISM
SAVED WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED???

There are some people that teach baptism is not necessary to be saved. I would like to point out a few facts, that being saved without baptism would mean:

(1) IT WOULD BE WITHOUT OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS
In Matthew 3:15 "Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness then he suffered him"
Note what Paul said in Romans 6:17 "But God be thanked that you were the servants of sin but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you"

(2) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT FORGIVENESS OF SINS
Peter said in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost"

(3) IT WOULD MEAN WITHOUT HAVING YOUR SINS WASHED AWAY.
Note: Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord"

(4) IT WOULD MEAN WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH
Note: Romans 6:3 "Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death"

(5) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED OUTSIDE THE BODY OF CHRIST
Note Galations 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on christ" Also see John 14:16

(6) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT BEING SAVED
Peter said in 1st Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

(7) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT THE OPERATION OF GOD
Paul said in Col. 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him from the dead"


Written by: Jesse Owens, Elder
Lynchburg Church of Christ
898 Leesville Road
Lynchburg, Virginia 24502

Good scriptures. The question becomes twofold depending on your situation.

1) do you rationalize the obvious based on the possibility of exceptions, or do you submit.

2) If and when you have children, do you raise them in all things except the most important thing. Do you take hold of the promise for them?

 

[lismore]

Believing in Jesus Christ is baptism.

Galatians 3: 26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, 27for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

One faith, one Lord, one baptism. This is faith

Okay this is a touchy subject and I was just woundering what everyone believes. Can you or can you not be saved and go to heaven without being baptized?

I personaly belive you cannot......and i base that on what the Bible says.....below is a typing of a phamplet that i recived that I think points it out well........


7 REASONS WHY ONE CANNOT BE SAVED WITHOUT BAPTISM
SAVED WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED???

There are some people that teach baptism is not necessary to be saved. I would like to point out a few facts, that being saved without baptism would mean:

(1) IT WOULD BE WITHOUT OBEDIENCE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS
In Matthew 3:15 "Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness then he suffered him"
Note what Paul said in Romans 6:17 "But God be thanked that you were the servants of sin but you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you"

(2) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT FORGIVENESS OF SINS
Peter said in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost"

(3) IT WOULD MEAN WITHOUT HAVING YOUR SINS WASHED AWAY.
Note: Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord"

(4) IT WOULD MEAN WITHOUT BEING BAPTIZED INTO HIS DEATH
Note: Romans 6:3 "Know ye not that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death"

(5) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED OUTSIDE THE BODY OF CHRIST
Note Galations 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on christ" Also see John 14:16

(6) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT BEING SAVED
Peter said in 1st Peter 3:21 "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh but the answer of a good conscience toward God) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ"

(7) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT THE OPERATION OF GOD
Paul said in Col. 2:12 "Buried with him in baptism wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God who hath raised him from the dead"


Written by: Jesse Owens, Elder
Lynchburg Church of Christ
898 Leesville Road
Lynchburg, Virginia 24502

 

[Normann]

................
........Can you or can you not be saved and go to heaven without being baptized?
I personaly belive you cannot......
......

(2) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT FORGIVENESS OF SINS...
Not true...
Peter said in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost"

Notice the word (for) it is translated from the Greek word (eis) and it means "because of".

So read it as such...Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ because of the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost"

(3) IT WOULD MEAN WITHOUT HAVING YOUR SINS WASHED AWAY.
Not true...

Note: Acts 22:16 "And now why tarriest thou arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord"

...calling on the name of the Lord
is what washes away our sins!


(5) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED OUTSIDE THE BODY OF CHRIST
Note Galations 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on christ" Also see John 14:16

Not true...
We are baptized unto Christ when we accept Him. If baptism saves a person then everyone that goes swimming under water is saved!

If water baptism saves us, why did Jesus die?

Eph 2:8-9
IN THE MASTER'S SERVICE,
Normann

 

[KEPLER]

................
........Can you or can you not be saved and go to heaven without being baptized?
I personaly belive you cannot......
......

(2) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED WITHOUT FORGIVENESS OF SINS...
Not true...
Peter said in Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost"

Notice the word (for) it is translated from the Greek word (eis) and it means "because of".

So read it as such...Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ because of the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost"

No, Norman. "Eis" does not mean "because of". "Dia" means because of. In this passage eis has an accusative, and therefore means more like "into" "unto" or "for the purpose of". I have only the most rudimentary Greek, but even I know that...

(5) IT WOULD MEAN BEING SAVED OUTSIDE THE BODY OF CHRIST
Note Galations 3:27 "For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on christ" Also see John 14:16

Not true...
We are baptized unto Christ when we accept Him. If baptism saves a person then everyone that goes swimming under water is saved!

If water baptism saves us, why did Jesus die?

Now that's just outright silly, and I think you know it! Baptism requires the presence of a minster (no, lifeguards don't count....unless they've actually been ordained!?) and must be done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. But you knew that! Surely...you were just joking right? I mean, no one is that...er, silly...right?

Now mind you, I hope its clear I'm not agreeing with the pamphlet....my earlier posts make that clear. But we need to be right for the right reasons....and the reasons you gave are wrong.

 

[Lynn73]

Actually, imho, the only thing required to baptize someone is to be a fellow beleiver. Nothing says it has to be a minister. Believers baptized other believers. In my church, a family member can do the baptizing, it doesn't have to be the pastor.

 

[S Walch]

S Walch,

Let's start with the end first...

Well I said that by separating the Holy Spirit from baptism which you undeniably do when you say,

that you end up quenching the Spirit. I think that's fair.

Not fair at all.

I am not quenching what the spirit does - YOU are the one who is doing that - saying you MUST BE baptised in water in order to be saved - Which goes against what Paul says In Ephesians:

For it is by GRACE through FAITH that you are saved

You fail to acknowledge all the instances where God does indeed work through physical means...why did you not deal with those? Do you deny that God has? Do you deny that God can? Perhaps you deny the very Incarnation of Christ?

Perhaps you need to stop accusing me of things eh?

I am offended that you would even think half of this stuff you are saying and accusing me of.

God DOES work through physical means - but salvation does NOT require someone to be baptised in water.

As for the rest, sorry, but you've still got it completely wrong.

As far as I'm concerned, we are merely interpertating the veerses differently.

Uh, my point wasn't about immediacy, now was it? It was about water! So whether or not he was technically "impatient", AS SOON AS they saw water, the Ethiopian stops the chariot and says, "Hey, let's get this done right now!" Perhaps, I ought to have used the word eager, rather than impatient, but as I said, that was hardly my point. His eagerness is demonstrated also by his earlier asking to have the scroll from isiaiah explained to him.

Not really.

Does it say the enuch got saved because he got baptised in water?

All it's telling is what happened, It doesn't mention whether the enuch was saved because he got baptised, which is what I can see you're trying to read into the text.

When you said:

you implied water wasn't important. The episode with the Ethiopian says it was.

It isn't important - the enuch isn't asking Philip to baptise him in order so that he is saved. You are reading many htings into the text that it doesn't say.

Bit like the RC purgatory.

Now as for unbiblically separating Spirit and Water baptism...

[snip...cut & paste from another post]

First of all, Peter says in Acts 2:38: "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." This is the normative passage for the entire New Testament. Christ had by this point ascended and the coming of the Spirit had followed, as promised (Acts 1:18). From now on, the Spirit would come in Baptism. There were two exceptions to this in the early Church, and each exception had a clear purpose behind it!!

Yes, BECAUSE HE HADN'T REMEMBERED THAT JESUS WOULD BAPTISE VIA THE HOLY SPIRIT!!

THe Holy spirit NOW baptises us - not water!

Clear fulfilment of what John the Baptist says:

Matthew 3:11

11 "I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

Does he say "And with water" there?

No, he does not:

7 And this was his message: "After me will come one more powerful than I, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to stoop down and untie. 8 I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."

Again - very clear with what baptism Jesus will baptise you with!

Luke 3:16
16 John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one more powerful than I will come, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

John 1:44

I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.'

I don't know how much clear John the Baptistss could be!

In Acts 8:14-16, Peter and John pray for a group of believers in Samaria who had been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus, but had not yet received the Holy Spirit. The apparent reason for the "delay" of Pentecost in Samaria is found in the verses around the account: it was so that the Holy Spirit would not be confused with the other spirits which were present in Samaria. Peter and John were there to rebuke the "users" of the other spirits, and testify to the uniquneness of the Holy Spirit.

Where on earth does it say that?

In Acts 10:44, we have an account of people being filled with the Holy Spirit prior to being baptized, with the intention of testifying to the Jewish Christians that Gentiles were also being called to follow Jesus (which Peter later explains in Acts 11:9-17): "The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles." (Acts 10:45) Nevertheless, Peter clearly thinks that this is strange, and insists that they be baptized forthwith.

So, the ONLY cases where Baptism and the Spirit were separated had clear theological reasons for doing so, and reasons that were associated with the witness of the nascent Church. They are not examples to be expected of an established and growing Church.

No, if that was true, then Peter wouldn't have said:

16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with[a]water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.

THEN he remembered! THEN! Exactly at that point. All the times before he hadn't remembered, it was only until THEN that he did - which he himself states!

There are two baptisms, which John the baptists clear states (see above verses) - John baptised with water, but Jesus baptised with the Holy spirit - therefore there are two types of baptism - The baptism of JTB, that of water, and the baptism of Jesus, that of the Holy Spirit.

I can't see how clearer it could be!

So again I ask: Whenever the Bible says baptism: Which baptism is it refering too?

 

[Lynn73]

It isn't important - the enuch isn't asking Philip to baptise him in order so that he is saved. You are reading many htings into the text that it doesn't say.

Correct. The eunich was already saved, that's why he wanted to be baptized. Salvation comes first, baptism as a symbol of what's taken place and as obedience to Christ's example, comes after. You don't bet baptized in order to get saved. If everyone believed that, you'd have people lined up from here to China. They could get dunked, and go back to their business of doing whatever they want, assured they were headed for heaven. It doesn't work that way.

 

[S Walch]

Correct. The eunich was already saved, that's why he wanted to be baptized. Salvation comes first, baptism as a symbol of what's taken place and as obedience to Christ's example, comes after. You don't bet baptized in order to get saved. If everyone believed that, you'd have people lined up from here to China. They could get dunked, and go back to their business of doing whatever they want, assured they were headed for heaven. It doesn't work that way.

Thanks Lynn, that is what I was trying to geting across:

Baptism IS a commandment - Just like "Do Not Steal" is a commandment - But it's not baptism or the not stealing that saves us.

So someone saying "You must repeant and not steal to be saved" would be wrong.

So no, baptism is not a requirement for salvation - as in you wont be saved if you're not baptise. You WILL be saved, because it is not baptism that saves us

But as a beleiver you SHOULD get batized, as it's a commandment.

 

[chris414]

you've hit the nail on the head

 

[Celticflower]

Just for fun sometime look up all the verses that tie baptism to salvation. Then do the same for verses tying faith or belief to salvation.
Some people might be in for a surprise.

 

[KEPLER]

S Walch, et alia,

1) While the Gospels do indeed speak of Christ as baptising with the Holy Spirit, we see clearly from Acts (esp 2:38; 19-4-6; 22:6) that the means by which the Holy Spirit would come was in water baptism. This is clear and irrefutable from Scripture. We are better off interpreting the Gospels thus: "The water John used was for an outward show of repentance; the water Jesus will use will actually convey the gift of the Holy Spirit" It's not the water that is doing anything; it's the Holy Spirit who is working through the water. This was a wondrous thing! But since every Jew knew that God had a habit of working through physical means (their history was loaded with it!), it was not all that strange.

2) If the Gospels are thought to mean that Jesus's baptism would not involve water, than the Apostles in Acts got it all wrong, because they were baptising with water in Jesus's name all over the place! So either you are wrong, or the Apostles are wrong. I'm sticking with the 12.

3) In the waters of Baptism, the Holy Spirit applies to us the benefits of Christ' shed blood. This is what John means when he says: "For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement" (1 John 5:7-8)

4) Please deal with the passages from Eph 5 and Titus 3, which make it absolutely clear that God works through Baptism.

5) I don't disagree with either you or Lynn73 that the Eunuch was already saved...I NEVER said anything to suggest otherwise, now did I?

6) I never said that just going and getting dunked did anything (Lynn73's example of the Chinese), nor could anything I have said be properly construed that way.

7) Baptism is NOT a commandment. Baptism is a promise.

Baptism is the promise of life; it is the assurance of forgiveness. It is exactly like the Bronze snake that Moses made. God said, "Look at the snake, and you will live." Could God have healed them some other way? Of course, He's God. But He attached a promise to the snake. And just so, he has attached a promise to Baptism.

When we are Baptized we have assurance that:
1) We receive the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38; Acts 19:4-6)
2) We are washed and regenerated. (Eph 5:25; Titus 3:4-7)
3) Our hearts and consciences are wiped clean (Heb 10:22; 1 Peter 3:21)
4) We are buried with Christ and raised with Him to new life. (Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-12)

Can we find these benefits outside of baptism? Well the thief on the cross did, and none of us would say that had the Eunuch tripped on his way down to the water and cracked his head open on a rock and died, he would not have been saved. Yes, his faith most certainly attached him to all the above promises... But under all "normal circumstances" we are not to put our faith in our faith, we are to place our faith in the promises of God.

 

[S Walch]

S Walch, et alia,

1) While the Gospels do indeed speak of Christ as baptising with the Holy Spirit, we see clearly from Acts (esp 2:38; 19-4-6; 22:6) that the means by which the Holy Spirit would come was in water baptism. This is clear and irrefutable from Scripture. We are better off interpreting the Gospels thus: "The water John used was for an outward show of repentance; the water Jesus will use will actually convey the gift of the Holy Spirit" It's not the water that is doing anything; it's the Holy Spirit who is working through the water. This was a wondrous thing! But since every Jew knew that God had a habit of working through physical means (their history was loaded with it!), it was not all that strange.

No, the holy spirit is not working through the water - you are intperating everything without clearly looking at the evidence.

Acts 11:9-17 again - Peter had FORGOTTEN - therefore anything done up until that point regarding baptism had been done in ignorance. He had forgotten that Jesus came to baptise not by water - but by the Holy Spirit.

Also, we can clearly see from acts chapter 19, that even though some belivers had already BEEN baptised - they still hadn't received the Holy Spirit - Obvioulsy you statement of "The holy spirit works through the water" is moot as in this case - as it hadn't!

As for acts 22:6 - I have no idea what you refering to that as to do with baptism:

6"About noon as I came near Damascus, suddenly a bright light from heaven flashed around me

2) If the Gospels are thought to mean that Jesus's baptism would not involve water, than the Apostles in Acts got it all wrong, because they were baptising with water in Jesus's name all over the place! So either you are wrong, or the Apostles are wrong. I'm sticking with the 12.

Peter had FORGOTTEN - THEN he remembered. The rest followed suit.

Yes, baptise with water and declare that Jesus is Lord! But don't think that you'll be saved because you've been baptised with water - It is via faith through grace that we are saved - Not via water.

Water is the SYMBOL of your declaration of faith - nothing more, nothing less.

3) In the waters of Baptism, the Holy Spirit applies to us the benefits of Christ' shed blood. This is what John means when he says: "For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement" (1 John 5:7-8)

These three are vital to life - blood and water and the spirit.

4) Please deal with the passages from Eph 5 and Titus 3, which make it absolutely clear that God works through Baptism.

Which baptism though! Please answer me!

There's is clear difference in scripture between batism via water - and baptism via the Holy Spirit.

Which is it refering to?

Titus 3:5

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

BY THE HOLY SPIRIT - not by water!

7) Baptism is NOT a commandment. Baptism is a promise.

Baptism is the promise of life; it is the assurance of forgiveness. It is exactly like the Bronze snake that Moses made. God said, "Look at the snake, and you will live." Could God have healed them some other way? Of course, He's God. But He attached a promise to the snake. And just so, he has attached a promise to Baptism.

When we are Baptized we have assurance that:
1) We receive the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:38; Acts 19:4-6)
2) We are washed and regenerated. (Eph 5:25; Titus 3:4-7)
3) Our hearts and consciences are wiped clean (Heb 10:22; 1 Peter 3:21)
4) We are buried with Christ and raised with Him to new life. (Rom 6:3-4; Col 2:11-12)

Can we find these benefits outside of baptism? Well the thief on the cross did, and none of us would say that had the Eunuch tripped on his way down to the water and cracked his head open on a rock and died, he would not have been saved. Yes, his faith most certainly attached him to all the above promises... But under all "normal circumstances" we are not to put our faith in our faith, we are to place our faith in the promises of God.

Think of it this way then:

Ther are 10 commandments given to us in the Old testiment right?

There's is only ONE that comes with a promise - yet is is Still a commandment!

"Honour your father and mother - and you will be blessed with a long life"

This is a COMMANDMENT that comes with a PROMISE!

Baptism IS a commndment that comes with a promise, just like honouring your father and mother is a commandment that comes with a promise

And again, Titus 3:5 is refering to baptism of the holy spirit - not water.

Your point 2 there is moot - as titus 3 pretty much explains it very well - it is refering to baptism of the Holy Spirit and not wat baptism.

And with acts 2 - they already receive dthe holy spirit before they were baptised, so point number one is moot.

Hebrews 10 is again refering to the Holy spirit which Is a "Pure water" - as there is no water on this planet that is completely pure - only God is pure.

There's lots of metaphors in the Bible

1 Peter 3:21

"and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also

WATER Symbolises baptism of the Holy Spirit - again, you have to know which baptism he's refering to.

Romans - refering again to the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, not water baptism.

Water does not do anything that Paul says in his letters - he's nearly always refering to baptism of the Holy Spirit.

 

[KEPLER]

He who has ears, let him hear...

Also, we can clearly see from acts chapter 19, that even though some belivers had already BEEN baptised - they still hadn't received the Holy Spirit - Obvioulsy you statement of "The holy spirit works through the water" is moot as in this case - as it hadn't!

Well, let's actually read the passage, shall we?:

And it happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the inland country and came to Ephesus. There he found some disciples. And he said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit." And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" They said, "Into John's baptism." And Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in the one who was to come after him, that is, Jesus." On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands on them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking in tongues and prophesying. There were about twelve men in all.

They had been baptised into John, not Jesus, as the scripture clearly and explicitly states. Are you BLIND? ILLITERATE? Or merely STUBBORN?

1) They were baptized into John (which was NOT a Christian baptism!).
2) Paul tells them that John's baptism was only a foreshadow of Jesus.
3) Then they were baptized into Jesus' name.
4) Then they received the Holy Spirit.

This is very clear and cannot be disputed.

As for acts 22:6 - I have no idea what you refering to that as to do with baptism:

Should have been Acts 22:16, my bad...(i"M a trerblie tpyist!) "Be baptized and wash away your sins."

You continue to misunderstand Acts 11. That passage is about Peter's prejudice concerning Gentiles; it has NOTHING to do with him misunderstanding baptism or the role of the Holy Spirit.

Yes, baptise with water and declare that Jesus is Lord! But don't think that you'll be saved because you've been baptised with water - It is via faith through grace that we are saved - Not via water.

1) It's by Grace through faith, not "faith through grace"
2) When did I EVER say "water saves us"???? NEVER!

Not only can you not read Scripture and understand it, you can't read my posts without misunderstanding....

Which baptism though! Please answer me!

There's is clear difference in scripture between batism via water - and baptism via the Holy Spirit.

Which is it refering to?

There is only ONE baptism. (Eph 4)

Titus 3:5

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

BY THE HOLY SPIRIT - not by water!

Uh, yeah..."washing of rebirth" He's talking about baptism, folks. WATER BAPTISM. Only fools deny it. And , oh, my, how you conveniently skipped over Ephesians 5:26...where Paul makes it clear because he uses the word "water"! Please. That Titus and Ephesians are speaking of the same event is proved by the fact that Paul uses the term "loutron" (washing) in both cases. Whatever washing is happening in Titus, it is undeniably the same as that of Ephesians, which was with water. The word Paul uses here is the word from which we get our word "lavoratory". The clear implication is that washng involves water. There is no intelligent or Scriptural way to deny it.

(And of course, we all know (don't we?) that sometimes even baptizo is translated as "wash" !! See Mark 7:4, where Jesus is talking about "baptizing" the pots and pans!)

In Acts 22:16 (quoted above) Ananais tells Paul to rise and be baptized to "wash away" his sins. The word is the same word used in Eph 5 and Titus 3: therefore it HAS TO REFER TO WATER BAPTISM. (And 1 Corinthians 6:11 is also a reference to water baptism!)

Hebrews 10 is again refering to the Holy spirit which Is a "Pure water" - as there is no water on this planet that is completely pure - only God is pure.

Clearly you are unfamiliar with the OT.

1 Peter 3:21

"and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also

WATER Symbolises baptism of the Holy Spirit - again, you have to know which baptism he's refering to.

That one is almost too funny to be true...you don't even know what water he's talking about, do you? Go back and actually READ the passage.

It is the water of noah's flood which is the symbol of our baptism! Let me introduce you to a new word: CONTEXT! Please, take the time to find a dictionary and look it up.

No. They are ALL (every single one of those passages) speaking of water baptism, in which we receive the Holy Sprirt. Whenever Paul uses the word "wash" he means "water baptism" (with the obvious exception of 1 Tim 5); his readers could have taken it no other way. Nor can we.

There is ONE faith, ONE baptism (not two!), and ONE Lord. Amen.

 

[oneshot012]

Oneshot,

That's a pretty good reply...except that you glossed over Romans 6.

Baptism is the means by which God applies the merits of Christ's work to us.

That's kind of an important point, and that's why Paul put it right there in the middle of everything, don't you think?

Thanks for your compliment. I am sorry that I did not go into even more detail but I had somewhere I had to go so I had to gloss over some parts.

Clearly in Romans 4-5 Paul demonstrates the believers justification. Therefore they have already been made righteous. Though In Chapter 6-7 we are working out our slavation. We need to look at chapter 6 in it's context not just the part of the baptism.

Romans 6:
1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?

Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase. This statement is clearly made to the believer because the unbeliever does not have the grace of God but the wrath of God ( Romans 1 clearly illustrates this point). One must also understand that Paul is really writing systematically here and his arguement is flowing it is not choppy one section beautiful leads into the next and they are all interwoven. Also I would like to clarify this please do not misinterpret me I believer all believers should be baptized I just do not believer it is a necessity for salvation. Anyways back to what I was saying Paul then says how shall we who died to sin still live in it. This person who he is speaking to is regenerate.

Then in the following verses:
3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

Now here is were things get a little bit sticky. This person has already been baptized and Paul is explaining to them what happen to them when they were baptzed because in chapter 5 he explained to them what happened to them when they believed in Jesus ( I already touched on that in the last post, they were justified or made righteous). Now the believer through baptism is being "united to Christ"(v.5) See here is were I get into what I believe that correct view of baptism is. I believe that it is a much more spritual act then we really make it out to be.

We begin to unite ourselves with Christ in his death, burial, and resurection. In this we are "clothed with Christ" (Gal. 4) and we take on a new nature not of our own but Christ's (Gal. 2) where we no longer walk according to our carnal nature but Christ's via the Holy Spirit or however you want to work that out (to me that is a mystery of the trinity because they are all living in us) anyways baptism does not seal salvation but seals a new life for us where we can start to live this new life now which is sactification because if you read on in this chapter Paul further explains:

11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. 12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Now Paul is clearly talking about how we are not to let sin reign. He accepts the fact that the major work of sin is gone but yet there is a nature that we are fighting that we inheritited from Adam. Now that major work of sin is defeated when we are justifed or made righteous accepting Jesus' sacrafice him being the "propitiation" or "expeation" or "atonement" for our sins all translations of the same word found in Romans 3:25. Then in Romans 6 he talks about then fighting off the rest of the carnal desires by putting them to death in baptism and accepting the new nature of Christ. This is a huge step in faith and should not be taken lightly. So when we understand that through batpism we are given a new nature it is for our sanctification not our justification.

Then Paul works this all out in verses:
20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

You were freed in in regard to righteousness meaning we are free from the bounds of that slavery when we are justified made righteous accept Jesus as our atonement. But now we have in verse 22 dervied our benefit from this righteousness and it has resulted in sanctifiaction which is a future of what will come our glorification or eternal life.

So I believe baptism is a part of sanctification not a part of jutification.

I hope this blesses you and clarify's what I was trying to say and again I was in a hurry yestarday that is why I could not go into such great detail otherwise I would just be writing a commentary.

God Bless.

Feel free to have questions, comments, and concerns. Sorry for any spelling and grammatical mistakes.