Saved without being baptized?

[KEPLER]

It is up to you to prove that there is a distinction. I have shown that the NT understands water baptism and spirit baptism to normally be the same event. While there are two (and only two) exceptions to this fact, every other NT baptism is Spirit and Water together. Period.

 

[Dragons87]

I think one can be saved without having been baptised. For me, baptism is just a ceremony in front of God, the Devil and all other people that you have become Christian - like a watershed ceremony. Baptism also means acceptance into the Church. One can become Christian simply by professing the faith in heart and in mouth (somewhere in Romans). Baptism is an important milestone in Christianhood, but I don't think one doesn't become saved without baptism.
For example: a man professes to become Christian on his deathbed, and he dies before being baptised.

 

[S Walch]

One can become Christian simply by professing the faith in heart and in mouth (somewhere in Romans).

[BIBLE]romans 10:9-10[/BIBLE]

 

[JimfromOhio]

Baptism is important but not important for salvation. Its simple as that.

 

[Dragons87]

Romans 10:9-109 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

See! I knew it was in Romans!!

 

[S Walch]

Bible knowledge has it's uses

 

[Schroeder]

It is up to you to prove that there is a distinction. I have shown that the NT understands water baptism and spirit baptism to normally be the same event. While there are two (and only two) exceptions to this fact, every other NT baptism is Spirit and Water together. Period.

not true at all in Acts 2:38 it is the Spirit baptism not water. how can it be water when Christ is the giver of the Spirit. we do not give it ourselves. he NEVER says we get it by dsoing a act of something. 1 Peter3:20 is not water either. 1, they were not saved by the water but by having Faith in God to build the Ark, heb 11 says they were. the Water of the Flood washed the sins of the world away. who did this not us but God, you see it was his work. that water sympolises the baptism now which washes sin away (not of the flesh and dirt on it BUT) again who does it GOD does. it is his work. HENCE the sympolism. what are we to do GOD told us in John 6 to believe on his son. That is our FAITH in the gospel. WE BELIEVE AND ARE BAPTISED BY THE SPIRIT we are saved. again the eunich believed and confessed as Rom 10:9 says so he was saved already, he had received the holy Spirit baptism the moment he believed. as Acts 15:8 says. And again there is only one baptism the Spirit. water baptism DOES NOT give us the Spirit, ONLY the Spirit gicves the SPirit. John 3:6. that is God work or his GRACE.

 

[KEPLER]

not true at all in Acts 2:38 it is the Spirit baptism not water. how can it be water when Christ is the giver of the Spirit. we do not give it ourselves. he NEVER says we get it by dsoing a act of something. 1 Peter3:20 is not water either. 1, they were not saved by the water but by having Faith in God to build the Ark, heb 11 says they were. the Water of the Flood washed the sins of the world away. who did this not us but God, you see it was his work. that water sympolises the baptism now which washes sin away (not of the flesh and dirt on it BUT) again who does it GOD does. it is his work. HENCE the sympolism. what are we to do GOD told us in John 6 to believe on his son. That is our FAITH in the gospel. WE BELIEVE AND ARE BAPTISED BY THE SPIRIT we are saved. again the eunich believed and confessed as Rom 10:9 says so he was saved already, he had received the holy Spirit baptism the moment he believed. as Acts 15:8 says. And again there is only one baptism the Spirit. water baptism DOES NOT give us the Spirit, ONLY the Spirit gicves the SPirit. John 3:6. that is God work or his GRACE.

Well, Schroeder, all I can say is that this post proves you clearly did not read what I wrote in early posts. Especially this one, and this post and this post, in the section following the words "Not really...".

I'm not interested in retyping what I've already written, especially since I have already refuted your arguments, but you have not read them. But I will say this: in no way, shape, or form can any intelligent and honest person conclude from what I wrote that I consider baptism a "work". For you to have said so is bearing false witness against me.

Acts 2:38 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Acts 8 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Acts 10 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Acts 19 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Acts 22 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Romans 6 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Ephesians 5 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Titus 3 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
1 Peter 3 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.

You have failed to refute from the Scripture how these could possibly NOT be water baptism. Acts 8 & 10 explicitly mention water, as do Ephesians and Peter. There is no way to argue that these four are not water baptism: how does one then exlpain the EXPLICIT mention of water???

Further, since both Titus and Ephesians are using the same word for "washing" (leutron) which was a greek synonym for Baptism (and was an explicit reference to the washing (with WATER!) of a dead body in preparation for burial), then the only honest conclusion is that Titus is talking about water baptism as well. NO honest interpretaion can disagree.

The truth is, Schroeder, that your theology is blinding you from treating the texts in any kind of honest manner. Nowhere in the History of Christianity have these texts EVER been thought of as anything BUT water baptism (at which time we also receive the Holy Spirit!). Only in the last 100 years or so has this strange theory of a "second blessing" popped up. The baptism of the Holy Spirit has ALWAYS been thought to be one in the same as water baptism.

You are simply out of step with the Bible and with all historical understanding of the doctrine of baptism and the Holy Spirit.

Pax Christi tibi,

Kepler

 

[Schroeder]

Well, Schroeder, all I can say is that this post proves you clearly did not read what I wrote in early posts. Especially this one, and this post and this post, in the section following the words "Not really...".

I'm not interested in retyping what I've already written, especially since I have already refuted your arguments, but you have not read them. But I will say this: in no way, shape, or form can any intelligent and honest person conclude from what I wrote that I consider baptism a "work". For you to have said so is bearing false witness against me.

doesnt matter if you think it is not a work, if you must do something physical in the flesh to get something else it is a work. that is the diffenition of work is it not. the diffinition of GRACE is the opposite of that. a gift. if in faith we must do something to get something(water baptism to get the Spirit baptism) then it is a work. so it is false witness to your self to conclude otherwise.

Acts 2:38 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Acts 8 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Acts 10 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Acts 19 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Acts 22 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Romans 6 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Ephesians 5 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
Titus 3 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.
1 Peter 3 is incontrovertably water baptism. Period.

You have failed to refute from the Scripture how these could possibly NOT be water baptism. Acts 8 & 10 explicitly mention water, as do Ephesians and Peter. There is no way to argue that these four are not water baptism: how does one then exlpain the EXPLICIT mention of water???

Further, since both Titus and Ephesians are using the same word for "washing" (leutron) which was a greek synonym for Baptism (and was an explicit reference to the washing (with WATER!) of a dead body in preparation for burial), then the only honest conclusion is that Titus is talking about water baptism as well. NO honest interpretaion can disagree.

The truth is, Schroeder, that your theology is blinding you from treating the texts in any kind of honest manner. Nowhere in the History of Christianity have these texts EVER been thought of as anything BUT water baptism (at which time we also receive the Holy Spirit!). Only in the last 100 years or so has this strange theory of a "second blessing" popped up. The baptism of the Holy Spirit has ALWAYS been thought to be one in the same as water baptism.

You are simply out of step with the Bible and with all historical understanding of the doctrine of baptism and the Holy Spirit.

Pax Christi tibi,

Kepler

of course you just blew off what i spoke on 1 Peter 3:20. how am i wrong here. my theology is hardly flawed. for one you do not discuss or refute my post but just say i am wrong without proving how or were i am. the idea of water and the spirit being the same is truelly a flat lie. for one read john 6 which you never refuted. it says the Spirit gives the Spirit. yet you say the water does. clearly against what is wrote in scripture. Rom 8 says the same thing. that we were raised from the dead by the Spirit just as the Spirit was with him in his death. explaining rom 6. Eph 4 says ONE baptism you say two. other wise John the Baptist LIED to me when he said that Christ baptism would be of the Spirit. NOT with his water baptism and Christ Spirit baptism. Christ was greater, if we put water first then it is greater. Gal 3 explains we are given the Gift(the Spirit) when we have faith in Him and Believe. again against your thinking. it does not say faith in doing water baptism. as for the explisit mention of water read John 4 and 7. what does it say rivers of flowing WATER will come from within you. John 7 says this is the Spirit. your whole theology is so full of holes and makes the scriptures contradict it is sad you honestly think this way. Acts 2:38 is not water but the Spirit. in Acts 10:42 he said that belief in christ forgives sin. not what he said in Acts 2:38 according to you. we no the gift of the Spirit is not by getting water baptised because gal 3 says it is upon belief and faith. Acts 10 merely says what can keep these from water. are you saying GOD made a mistake by giveing them the GIFT of GRACe before they were saved or water baptised. that is strong words. I'm sorry but you have not even tried to prove me wrong at all. explain to me how my interpretation of 1 Peter 3:20 is not correct. and how what i just wrote isnt right.

 

[KEPLER]

You demonstrate that you do not understand how God works. That is sad.

And as I said, I don't want to bother retyping things I had already typed in earlier posts. Every specious argument you have presented here has already been refuted in earlier posts.

Kepler shakes the dust from his sandals...

 

[S Walch]

You demonstrate that you do not understand how God works. That is sad.

And as I said, I don't want to bother retyping things I had already typed in earlier posts. Every specious argument you have presented here has already been refuted in earlier posts.

Kepler shakes the dust from his sandals...

Wow, what an insult!

Although you really are not at all open to the fact that you might be wrong are you?

 

[Schroeder]

You demonstrate that you do not understand how God works. That is sad.

And as I said, I don't want to bother retyping things I had already typed in earlier posts. Every specious argument you have presented here has already been refuted in earlier posts.

Kepler shakes the dust from his sandals...

NICE, proves you do not or can not prove me wrong. John 6:28-29 " then they said to him,"what shall we do, that we may do the works of GOD?" JESUS answered and said to them, This is the WORK of GOd, THAT YOU BELIEVE IN HIM WHOM HE SENT." 6:40 " And this is the WILL of Him who sent Me, THAT everyone who sees the Son and BELIEVES IN HIM may have everlasting life.." (47)MOST assuredly, I say to you, he who BELIEVES in Me has everlasdting life. (63) it is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. 7:38 He who BELIEVES in Me as the Scriptures say out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.he spoke this concerning the SPIRIT, Whom those who BELIEVE in Him would receive; for the Holy SPirit was not given, because jesus was not yet glorified. Mark 16:16 He who BELIEVES and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not will be condemed. and these signs will follow those who believe: Acts 2:38 repent and be baptised in the name of Christ for the remission of sins and you shall receive the gift of the Spirit, for the PROMISE is to you and your children. Acts 5:31 Him God has exalted to his right hand to be Prince and saviour to GIve repentance to Isreal and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witness to these things, and so also is the holy Spirit whom GOD HAS GIVEN to those who OBEY Him. Acts 10:42 And He commanded us to preach the gospel to the people and to testify that it is he who was ordained by God to be judge of the living and the dead, to him all the Prophets witness that , through His name, WHOEVER BELIEVES in Him will RECEIVE REMISSION OF SINS." the Spirit then fell on them, they were astonished that they received the GIFT of the Spirit for they heard them SEAK in tongues. Acts 11:17If therfore God gave them the same gift as HE GAVE US when we BELIEVED on the Lord...Acts 15:8 So God who knows the heart acknowledged them by giving them the Holy SPirit, just as he did us, and made no DISTINCTION... Rom 5:18-19...sothrough ONE mans act of righteousness,.... so also by ONE mans OBEDIANCE many will be made righteous. i can go on and on if you need me to.
Eph 1:13 " IN HIM YOU ALSO TRUSTED, AFTER YOU HEARD THE WORD OF TRUTH, THE GOSPEL OF YOUR SALVATION; IN WHOM ALSO HAVING BELIEVED, YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE, WHO IS THE QUARANTEE OF OU INHERATANCE UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASEED POSSESION, TO THE PRAISE OF HIS GLORY."

 

[Melethiel]

Wow, what an insult!

Although you really are not at all open to the fact that you might be wrong are you?

Considering the multitude of writings in Scripture and by the Fathers supporting the view that Kepler has put forth...I'd say you're the one that's wrong.

 

[S Walch]

Schroeder has also put up a very good argument posting another view of the scriptures Kepler has posted.

Not everywhere in the New Testiment when it says "baptize" is it meaning water baptism.