Saved or unsaved

[Unsavable]

I would leave the concept of fault alone. It is not going to do any good. You can spend the rest of your life contemplating where blame lies.

It comes down to this. Romans 10 says there are two requirements for salvation: believe in your heart, confess with your mouth. One involves faith; the other, obedience. As James says, works complete our faith.

It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. The problem is we lack faith and so keep taking our temperature, to see if it's “working”. But like when the cook who keeps opening the oven to check the cupcakes, they never get done.

Thus the necessity of grace, as I've been trying to describe.

For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. -Rom 6.14​

Does that promise immediate victory? No. That's going to depend on the person and circumstances. It does promise ultimate manifest victory, and it promises victory in the spirit before you get there.

If we should say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we should confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. -1John 1:8-9​

Notice context is that we have sin, not that we don’t have it. So if you're a sinner, you're eligible. Next, we have to confess. But then two things occur. God forgives, and then He cleanses. The forgiveness is right away; the cleansing might take a while. Otherwise, and this wouldn't have had to be written:

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. - Php1.6​

You see, it's a process. It comes down to heb 11.6:

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.​

I would say to stop looking for results, and just be sure you're doing what you're supposed to be doing: approaching God in faith, meditating on His word in faith, praying in faith. You take care of your end, God will uphold His end.



There would be no point, and indeed most Calvinists do not believe in free will.



That’s grace abuse, and it clearly shows a carnal attitude of the heart. If your focus is on God, not yourself, you will not fall into that trap, because you know God is holy and He wants you to be as well.

The problem is performance orientation. If you focus on yourself, you either do not measure up, in which case you either think you are not saved or God doesn't exist, or you think you can do anything, because it's all been done for you. Neither is true. We need to be god-focused.

Not sure what else I can say. If you apply yourself to these things, they will change your outlook, attitude, and life. The Lord Jesus is faithful to transform you into His image. But not for nothing we are told to endure and persevere.

Make absolutely sure you are feeding on the Word regularly. The truth is there, and many religious lies, the deceptions of man, are about. God loves you and wants you saved. Say yes, and then get on with it. And don’t look back.

You have said a lot. And I appreciate it.

My point of view, and my questions, aren't coming from that of one trying to expose the failings of scripture. I am one, who like so many others, questions my faith due to my own experiences and failures. Another poster who is admittedly atheist said "I got unsaved when I realized my faith had no validity". I struggle with this question a lot. With the ineffectiveness of prayer. What did I do wrong? Is it even possible to do right? Why do things go so wrong? Why am I not being saved functionally as well as spiritually. If I prayed and see no evidence of the spirit in me then what does that mean? Etc. You have generously provided a wealth of information. In truth it will take me a while to for to properly digest it all!

And hopefully others will gain from your knowledge as well.

Thank you

 

[Hazelelponi]

You have said a lot. And I appreciate it.

My point of view, and my questions, aren't coming from that of one trying to expose the failings of scripture. I am one, who like so many others, questions my faith due to my own experiences and failures. Another poster who is admittedly atheist said "I got unsaved when I realized my faith had no validity". I struggle with this question a lot. With the ineffectiveness of prayer. What did I do wrong? Is it even possible to do right? Why do things go so wrong? Why am I not being saved functionally as well as spiritually. If I prayed and see no evidence of the spirit in me then what does that mean? Etc. You have generously provided a wealth of information. In truth it will take me a while to for to properly digest it all!

And hopefully others will gain from your knowledge as well.

Thank you

Just remember, the work of salvation is God's. It is just that - Christ saves the sinner.

Rest in that - nothing we do makes us worthy to be saved. We are all unworthy, and we all rest in Christ's justification.

Rest from your own work in Him.

Don't over think it. Just BE saved and accept the fullness of His Grace.

Anything beyond that flows from a grateful heart that loves Him for what He did for you.. your not saving yourself. Your already saved. Once you truly realize the fullness of that, then from a heart overflowing with love of Him you will work to be more Christ-like. Not to become justified, but because He justified you.

 

[lordjeff]

There'd be no case for morality if there were good vs evil. Of course the devil (Satan, Lucifer, Apollyon) exists in some kind of form.

 

[paul1149]

You have generously provided a wealth of information. In truth it will take me a while to for to properly digest it all!

And hopefully others will gain from your knowledge as well.

Thank you

You're very welcome.

Then He spoke a parable to them, concluding that men always ought to pray and not lose heart,
saying: "There was in a certain city a judge who did not reverence God nor regard man.
Now there was a widow in that city; and she came to him, saying, 'Avenge me from my adversary.'
And he would not for a while; but afterward he said within himself, 'Though I do not reverence God nor regard man,
yet because this widow troubles me I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.'"
Then the Lord said, "Hear what the unjust judge said.
And will God not avenge His own elect who cry out day and night to Him, though He bears long with them?
I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man comes, shall He find faith on the earth?" -Luke 18:1-8​

The bottom line is, if you really believe this stuff, you latch on and you never let go. You don't allow any doubt, any discouragement to defeat you. You don't listen to any naysayer, anyone who has failed at it. You keep on pressing in, you keep on casting the problem onto the question of God's faithfulness.

And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. -Matt 11:12​

You can't save yourself by your own strength, but you can use your strength to stay on the altar until God moves. When God cut the covenant with Abraham, Abraham was required to prepare the animal sacrifice. He killed them and set them out. Then he had to protect them from the birds of prey. (Gen 15)

Expect that you should have to do no less. If you mean business you will do it. And if you do it, you will prevail, because it is based on God's character. So it is written. Know your Biblical rights, and don't take No for an answer.

 

[Lazarus Long]

Your god knows from before creation that you are either in heaven or hell, can you prove god's knowledge false? If god sees you in heaven can you do something and end up in hell?

 

[Peter John]

Your god knows from before creation that you are either in heaven or hell, can you prove god's knowledge false? If god sees you in heaven can you do something and end up in hell?

Believers are predestined before the creation of the world, as Eph1v4 says
"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,"
Once your chosen, you can't become unchosen.

 

[Lazarus Long]

Believers are predestined before the creation of the world, as Eph1v4 says
"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world,"
Once your chosen, you can't become unchosen.

So what you do when you're alive makes no difference, you don't get a choice. Before you even existed you were going to hell so don't bother trying to be good or actually believe because you are in hell in god's paradigm.

 

[Peter John]

So what you do when you're alive makes no difference, you don't get a choice. Before you even existed you were going to hell so don't bother trying to be good or actually believe because you are in hell in god's paradigm.

Short answer, yes, but the difficulty is no-one can 100% say they are chosen, as it's a lifelong process of dying to our selfish wants, (outer flesh) & living by God's Holy Spirit (inner man of your heart), so we can make choices, but we cannot choose God, only He does the choosing. There is no freewill, only God's will.

 

[Lazarus Long]

Short answer, yes, but the difficulty is no-one can 100% say they are chosen, as it's a lifelong process of dying to our selfish wants, (outer flesh) & living by God's Holy Spirit (inner man of your heart), so we can make choices, but we cannot choose God, only He does the choosing. There is no freewill, only God's will.

It's not a lifelong process at all it's a forgone conclusion, you can only do what god has predestined you to do, salvation doesn't exist.

 

[Peter John]

It's not a lifelong process at all it's a forgone conclusion, you can only do what god has predestined you to do, salvation doesn't exist.

Your right & wrong, it's a lifelong process for us, & a foregone conclusion with God, but we won't know if we are chosen, until Christ returns. With me, there are times when I'm certain, & times when I'm not. Us humans seem to have that element of doubt!

 

[pleinmont]

Your right & wrong, it's a lifelong process for us, & a foregone conclusion with God, but we won't know if we are chosen, until Christ returns. With me, there are times when I'm certain, & times when I'm not. Us humans seem to have that element of doubt!

Doubt is good where religion is concerned, certainty is bad, imo.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Doubt is good where religion is concerned, certainty is bad, imo.

I disagree. What is dangerous is to be convicted of your own righteousness, not certainty of salvation.

I was once quite convinced of my own righteousness, I looked at myself and figured that according to that great big balance sheet in the sky, I was at the least in the black.

What we need to understand - certainly what I needed to understand - is that we are all in the red...

When we measure our righteousness in this world's terms, many are doing really really good. But when we measure against God's Holiness, no one is righteous, nor can we be.

The cognizant understanding of what we really are before God, actually requires certainty in our salvation because the certainty of our sin requires a Holy and Just justice.

Not every one has this very real understanding of what we are before God but those who do, need somewhere to rest - and God in His infinite wisdom and mercy gave us Christ, who gives us that.

The Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath.

We've seen historically the havoc that is wrought by being convinced of ones own righteousness however. Of this I can agree with you, and anyone - even atheists - can fall into that trap.

 

[pleinmont]

I disagree. What is dangerous is to be convicted of your own righteousness, not certainty of salvation.

I was once quite convinced of my own righteousness, I looked at myself and figured that according to that great big balance sheet in the sky, I was at the least in the black.

What we need to understand - certainly what I needed to understand - is that we are all in the red...

When we measure our righteousness in this world's terms, many are doing really really good. But when we measure against God's Holiness, no one is righteous, nor can we be.

The cognizant understanding of what we really are before God, actually requires certainty in our salvation because the certainty of our sin requires a Holy and Just justice.

Not every one has this very real understanding of what we are before God but those who do, need somewhere to rest - and God in His infinite wisdom and mercy gave us Christ, who gives us that.

The Sabbath was created for man, not man for the Sabbath.

We've seen historically the havoc that is wrought by being convinced of ones own righteousness however. Of this I can agree with you.

Humans created gods, not the other way round, imo. There is not the slightest shred of reliable evidence any god exists. The Biblical god story reads like a less than credible fairy tale. It is sad that people sucked into the more extreme Christian beliefs like the 'you must be saved' myth swallow it without questioning it. I took on board that silliness when I was 11, but fortunately was sensible enough to question its veracity during my teenage years. By the time I became an adult I had realised that it had no credibility whatsoever and disposed of it. I have just had my 70th birthday and haven't missed being religious, but will challenged those who make statements as to its truth but can't support it with any verifiable evidence.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Can a person know that Christ is the true Son of God and died for the sins of mankind and yet not be saved?

Maybe they are being called but, not yet saved?
Respond to the calling.
Listen to good sermons
and read the Bible.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Humans created gods, not the other way round, imo. There is not the slightest shred of reliable evidence any god exists. The Biblical god story reads like a less than credible fairy tale. It is sad that people sucked into the more extreme Christian beliefs like the 'you must be saved' myth swallow it without questioning it. I took on board that silliness when I was 11, but fortunately was sensible enough to question its veracity during my teenage years. By the time I became an adult I had realised that it had no credibility whatsoever and disposed of it. I have just had my 70th birthday and haven't missed being religious, but will challenged those who make statements as to its truth but can't support it with any verifiable evidence.

We don't need to "verify" our faith... You want to sit and measure GOD, and He cannot be measured. You must falsify God, yet He cannot be falsified. You can objectively observe all you like - but it will never be enough for you..

Can Science Rule Out God?

Science can't rule out God.

 

[Peter John]

Humans created gods, not the other way round, imo. There is not the slightest shred of reliable evidence any god exists.

I wonder if you were drowning at sea, with no-one around, who yer gonna call, Ghostbusters? or maybe whisper GOD HELP ME!

 

[pleinmont]

We don't need to "verify" our faith... You want to sit and measure GOD, and He cannot be measured. You must falsify God, yet He cannot be falsified. You can objectively observe all you like - but it will never be enough for you..

Can Science Rule Out God?

Science can't rule out God.

I suspect science will one day come up with all the answers which will rule out the god scenario, I certainly hope so.

 

[pleinmont]

I wonder if you were drowning at sea, with no-one around, who yer gonna call, Ghostbusters? or maybe whisper GOD HELP ME!

I have been in many dangerous situations which could have killed me throughout my 70 years of life. I have spent my time trying to remedy them as well as castigating myself for being so stupid.

 

[Robban]

I suspect science will one day come up with all the answers which will rule out the god scenario, I certainly hope so.

It will, but,
when it does it will find an old Rabbi sitting in a deckchair smoking a pipe, and he will say,

"Did I not tell you so"

Hoho.

 

[pleinmont]

It will, but,
when it does it will find an old Rabbi sitting in a deckchair smoking a pipe, and he will say,

"Did I not tell you so"

?????

Hoho.