Saved or unsaved

[Unsavable]

Thank you. God is so amazing, how could His message of salvation be any less? Do we really think our weaknesses surprise Him, as if He didn't know what He was getting into when He decided to make man and to eventually send Jesus to save him? He knew all of it and went ahead anyway, knowing the great cost of redemption, because He is love. But you see the need for humility, to admit our weaknesses so we can ask properly. God gives grace to the humble.

No, I'm not a determinist. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and the Father desires that no one perish. The offer is open to all who will believe. To say someone never had a shot it is, in my mind, an offense against the precious Blood. I dare not do that. If someone doesn't want to accept the Free Gift, that's on them, not God. The Judge of the whole Earth will do what is right.

Grace and sonship is just a decision away - the decision to believe that God is able to save even the worst of sinners, and to say Yes to the Lord. Why would that not be so, since even the best of us, whatever that might mean, are entirely dependent on His mercy and grace for salvation? God does not play favorites.

Simply put, NO ONE is unsavable. And the worse your condition, the greater glory in it for Jesus. There is absolutely NO need for anyone not to avail himself of this wonderful offer. Jesus stands at the door of each heart and knocks.

Hi again Paul,

Really enjoying your posts. For some reason Lots wife came to my mind as I read this. She was being lead away from Sodom by rescuing angels and was turned into a pillar of salt for looking back. That's pretty hard core. Then look at King David. And I, for one, should have been turned into a pillar of salt a thousand times! Sometimes there seems to be a contradiction between the harshness of judgment and freely given grace. I am not one to stand in judgment of God but sometimes it seems like there is some incongruity between these two ideas and how they are applied.

Maybe no one is unsavable yet many will live for a time and perish, or suffer for eternity depending on what you believe. Even some that believe they are saved and believe they are doing Gods work.

 

[d taylor]

These are some very interesting facts. I don't think I've ever read that book.

What are your thoughts on the topic?

I will stop as this is not, like it has been said, related to the original topic of this thread.

 

[paul1149]

Hi again Paul,

Really enjoying your posts. For some reason Lots wife came to my mind as I read this. She was being lead away from Sodom by rescuing angels and was turned into a pillar of salt for looking back. That's pretty hard core. Then look at King David. And I, for one, should have been turned into a pillar of salt a thousand times!

Thank you again. The story of Lot's wife is very troubling. It is one of many OT examples of the harshness of judgment without mercy and grace. The annihilation of the Canaanites is another. But if you look closely you see that the Bible teaches that one of the major reasons the Hebrews suffered for four centuries in Egypt was to wait until the Canaanites fate was fully deserved; their judgment was not capricious. And the law Moses received also could be rigid. Right afterward, a man was caught gathering firewood on Sabbath, and was stoned to death for it.

If you look at the NT warnings that are analogous to the fate of Lot's wife, you see a subtle difference. For example:

But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." -Luke 9:62​

Notice the verb tense of the condition, "looking back". It is present participle, indicating action continuing in the present. He did not say that if you put your hand to the plow, and then look back, you are done, you have forfeited any chance of salvation. He is saying that while you are looking back you are not fit for the Kingdom; you cannot plow straight rows unless you look in the direction you're going. Correct your point of view, and you become fit for the Kingdom once again. There are other parables that follow this same pattern.

"The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (Jn 1.17). We have a better covenant than they, not of the letter, which kills, but of the spirit, which gives life (2Cor 3). Theirs was based on rule-keeping. It was given from a distance through a mediator. Ours is based on the indwelling Presence of the power of an indestructible Life. Jesus himself came to bring us grace and truth. It's no longer our performance in our own strength, it's Christ working in us that matters.

Too many don't understand the dynamics of grace in the New Covenant. They accept Christ, then they struggle to measure up just as if they are under the law. But it is Biblically clear that we are not under law, but under grace (Rom 7; Galatians; etc). Grace keeps us from condemnation until such time as we are perfected (Rom 6.14, 8.1).

Now add to that lack of understanding, man's doctrine of Predestination, and you have a potent formula for people to despair of salvation when they find they can't measure up.

Christ loves you far too much for Him to lose you (Luke 15). As He says in John 8, if we abide in His word, we will know the truth and it will set us free. People who don't understand the working of grace and the power of the Blood are vulnerable to the attacks of the enemy. And very often they will come in the form of religion, just as they indeed did with Jesus when He walked the Earth.

Don't be a statistic, my friend. There is no need for it. There's a beautiful Kingdom plot reserved for you, and Father wants you to claim it. All it takes is faith in Him, not in your own ability to keep rules, and a heart willing to obey. Eternal life begins right now, and is only a decision away (Rom 10).

 

[Ophiolite]

Hostility, no, frustration, yes. This thread started out so nice. Many thoughtful people making many interesting and positive comments. Then out of nowhere somebody decided to snottily denigrate believers based on some rotten attitude, pompous, holier than thou, steeped in ignorance, comments related to evolution and creationism. I made the mistake of addressing those comments and even explained that origins and evolution are really separate topics and the poster was confusing them. You can read my post above. Then somebody else posted some, I don't even know what, "facts" from the funny farm and it just escalated. Then I tried bringing the conversation back to the topic. Regardless of your atheist viewpoint your comments were not related to the topic. And you were calling out somebody...honestly, what for? The post had nothing in it that made it worth addressing. Couldn't you just roll your eyes and move on? Instead you decided to attack what you believed was the weaker opponent, hoping to gain, God only knows what, and that is why I asked you about your thoughts on the TOPIC!!!

So yes, I am getting frustrated.

I regret that I have caused you frustration. I get tempted towards frustration each time I read nonsense of any kind, but it is especially tempting when the nonsense is a misunderstanding of science. On this occasion I yielded. My apologies.

If you wish an on-topic comment from an atheist with some knowledge of Christianity, I would observe that it is clear that knowing "Christ is the true Son of God and died for the sins of mankind" is insufficient to ensure salvation. (To avoid going further off-topic don't feel obliged to answer all my questions from the earlier post.)

I notice from your post count that you are new to the forum. I recommend becoming accustomed to threads going off-topic, else you are destined to suffer a great deal more frustration.

 

[lordjeff]

Hello all,

Thank you in advance for sharing your thoughts and ideas on this question.

Can a person know that Christ is the true Son of God and died for the sins of mankind and yet not be saved?

Jesus said on the cross, "It is finished." If it were not finished then for all generations to come, then our faith is in vain & that it's finished stuff is a lie. Mankind is fallible & always will be. The excepted few who will not be saved I believe are those that try to usurp the realm of God & pretend they can make decisions for all that is & was.

 

[Lazarus Long]

Please, I too am guilty but he is hijacking this thread. Its so easy to get drawn in but its time to let it go. Thank you

Please accept my apologies.

 

[Unsavable]

I regret that I have caused you frustration. I get tempted towards frustration each time I read nonsense of any kind, but it is especially tempting when the nonsense is a misunderstanding of science. On this occasion I yielded. My apologies.

If you wish an on-topic comment from an atheist with some knowledge of Christianity, I would observe that it is clear that knowing "Christ is the true Son of God and died for the sins of mankind" is insufficient to ensure salvation. (To avoid going further off-topic don't feel obliged to answer all my questions from the earlier post.)

I notice from your post count that you are new to the forum. I recommend becoming accustomed to threads going off-topic, else you are destined to suffer a great deal more frustration.

Crazy comments come from all directions and science and religion do not stand in opposition to each other. They attempt to address different questions and neither is mutually exclusive of the other.

Thank you for answering my question. I value opinions from all perspectives. I myself, respectfully, honestly, with an open mind, question the mechanics of faith as you might guess from my screen name. I see a difficult contradiction.

1. You ask forgiveness to be saved
2. God sends the Holy Spirit to change you
3. Because of the indwelling Holy Spirit your desires change

Here is my problem. You are dead in sin when you pray for forgiveness. Therefore you can never be right in the head to make this prayer. But if nothing changes or nothing happens, it's your fault. You didn't do something right. But you are a sinner and can't. That's why I asked several people about predestination. The bible says your name was written in the book of life from the beginning of time. Therefore some people are chosen to be saved and others not. In my mind this means the whole purpose in Gods design would be to teach the chosen to reject sin based on first hand experience. It also means I very well may not be a member of this exclusive club.

Some well educated believers explained that is the wrong way to look at it but I am still trying to understand what the correct nuances are.

 

[Unsavable]

Please accept my apologies.

Yes, absolutely. Thank you LL.

 

[Unsavable]

I will stop as this is not, like it has been said, related to the original topic of this thread.

Thank you DT.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Crazy comments come from all directions and science and religion do not stand in opposition to each other. They attempt to address different questions and neither is mutually exclusive of the other.

Thank you for answering my question. I value opinions from all perspectives. I myself, respectfully, honestly, with an open mind, question the mechanics of faith as you might guess from my screen name. I see a difficult contradiction.

1. You ask forgiveness to be saved
2. God sends the Holy Spirit to change you
3. Because of the indwelling Holy Spirit your desires change

Here is my problem. You are dead in sin when you pray for forgiveness. Therefore you can never be right in the head to make this prayer. But if nothing changes or nothing happens, it's your fault. You didn't do something right. But you are a sinner and can't. That's why I asked several people about predestination. The bible says your name was written in the book of life from the beginning of time. Therefore some people are chosen to be saved and others not. In my mind this means the whole purpose in Gods design would be to teach the chosen to reject sin based on first hand experience. It also means I very well may not be a member of this exclusive club.

Some well educated believers explained that is the wrong way to look at it but I am still trying to understand what the correct nuances are.

We (reformed people's) believe God Himself regenerates people to accept the offer of salvation.

There are four things. Regeneration. Justification. Sanctification. Glorification.

God regenerates us to understand Christ's sacrifice and accept/submit to it.

We are Justified by Christ's work on the Cross.

We are sanctified as a process over a lifetime. Romans 6:22

We are ultimately glorified upon our death when we are changed and taken to be with God in heaven.

ROMANS 8:30

"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

The Sequence of Salvation

Philippians 1:6
"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

 

[Unsavable]

Thank you again. The story of Lot's wife is very troubling. It is one of many OT examples of the harshness of judgment without mercy and grace. The annihilation of the Canaanites is another. But if you look closely you see that the Bible teaches that one of the major reasons the Hebrews suffered for four centuries in Egypt was to wait until the Canaanites fate was fully deserved; their judgment was not capricious. And the law Moses received also could be rigid. Right afterward, a man was caught gathering firewood on Sabbath, and was stoned to death for it.

If you look at the NT warnings that are analogous to the fate of Lot's wife, you see a subtle difference. For example:

But Jesus said to him, "No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." -Luke 9:62​

Notice the verb tense of the condition, "looking back". It is present participle, indicating action continuing in the present. He did not say that if you put your hand to the plow, and then look back, you are done, you have forfeited any chance of salvation. He is saying that while you are looking back you are not fit for the Kingdom; you cannot plow straight rows unless you look in the direction you're going. Correct your point of view, and you become fit for the Kingdom once again. There are other parables that follow this same pattern.

"The law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (Jn 1.17). We have a better covenant than they, not of the letter, which kills, but of the spirit, which gives life (2Cor 3). Theirs was based on rule-keeping. It was given from a distance through a mediator. Ours is based on the indwelling Presence of the power of an indestructible Life. Jesus himself came to bring us grace and truth. It's no longer our performance in our own strength, it's Christ working in us that matters.

Too many don't understand the dynamics of grace in the New Covenant. They accept Christ, then they struggle to measure up just as if they are under the law. But it is Biblically clear that we are not under law, but under grace (Rom 7; Galatians; etc). Grace keeps us from condemnation until such time as we are perfected (Rom 6.14, 8.1).

Now add to that lack of understanding, man's doctrine of Predestination, and you have a potent formula for people to despair of salvation when they find they can't measure up.

Christ loves you far too much for Him to lose you (Luke 15). As He says in John 8, if we abide in His word, we will know the truth and it will set us free. People who don't understand the working of grace and the power of the Blood are vulnerable to the attacks of the enemy. And very often they will come in the form of religion, just as they indeed did with Jesus when He walked the Earth.

Don't be a statistic, my friend. There is no need for it. There's a beautiful Kingdom plot reserved for you, and Father wants you to claim it. All it takes is faith in Him, not in your own ability to keep rules, and a heart willing to obey. Eternal life begins right now, and is only a decision away (Rom 10).

Thank you Paul. Thank you for sharing these words. I get what you say but there is a piece I don't get. If I am dead in sin and pray for forgiveness then the promise is that there will be no condemnation, the Holy Spirit will dwell in me, and my heart will be changed. However, if someone is not changed, what happened? Can it possibly be their fault if we have already acknowledged the person is dead to sin and can't do anything to change themselves.

When I ask this question of others they suggest the person is doing something wrong. They weren't sincere or they are asking for selfish reasons or whatever. But it can't be their fault, can it? Their sin condition would forever prevent them from asking from a spiritually, mentally, correct place.

This leads me to the question predestination. Doesn't the bible say that your name is written in the Book of Life from the beginning of time? What good is it to have free will to accept grace if you have been left out of the book from the beginning of time?

Plus there are many people, even many people who post on this site, who believe they are saved but I see them justifying sin and leading others, biblical and objectively, into sin in the name of Jesus.

To their point, if there is no condemnation then I can freely sin without concern. Hey everybody, lets party! Unless your desires change. So people get depressed because their desires don't change and they know they are not saved. Why get depressed, there is no longer a consequence for sin.

Thank you

 

[Hazelelponi]

Thank you Paul. Thank you for sharing these words. I get what you say but there is a piece I don't get. If I am dead in sin and pray for forgiveness then the promise is that there will be no condemnation, the Holy Spirit will dwell in me, and my heart will be changed. However, if someone is not changed, what happened? Can it possibly be their fault if we have already acknowledged the person is dead to sin and can't do anything to change themselves.

When I ask this question of others they suggest the person is doing something wrong. They weren't sincere or they are asking for selfish reasons or whatever. But it can't be their fault, can it? Their sin condition would forever prevent them from asking from a spiritually, mentally, correct place.

This leads me to the question predestination. Doesn't the bible say that your name is written in the Book of Life from the beginning of time? What good is it to have free will to accept grace if you have been left out of the book from the beginning of time?

Plus there are many people, even many people who post on this site, who believe they are saved but I see them justifying sin and leading others, biblical and objectively, into sin in the name of Jesus.

To their point, if there is no condemnation then I can freely sin without concern. Hey everybody, lets party! Unless your desires change. So people get depressed because their desires don't change and they know they are not saved. Why get depressed, there is no longer a consequence for sin.

Thank you

There is now no condemnation for sin IF you have the Spirit of Christ in you.

If, IF..

We are no longer under the law of the flesh, but we ARE, if Christ be in us, under the law of the Spirit.

Antinomianism is condemned in the Bible as false, so is fleshly lawkeeping, there is something in between, that of keeping the spiritual law that is made possible in the sanctification process available to those with the Spirit of God.

The Holy Spirit isn't some emotion, it's a new consciousness of what sin is, and what it is not. It's a guidance which pairs with the Bible in perfect harmony.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 We are under the New Covenant now.

Why do we spread the Gospel to all?

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? Romans 10:14

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." John 12:32


"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ" Romans 10:17

Hearing can be understood as hearing with the ears, and understood also as an understanding.

It is by Christ Spirit we understand, but through hearing with the ears is what moves us to that understanding.

The best scripture describing this is in Acts 16:14:

"One of those listening [to Paul preach] was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message."

 

[Unsavable]

We (reformed people's) believe God Himself regenerates people to accept the offer of salvation.

There are four things. Regeneration. Justification. Sanctification. Glorification.

God regenerates us to understand Christ's sacrifice and accept/submit to it.

We are Justified by Christ's work on the Cross.

We are sanctified as a process over a lifetime. Romans 6:22

We are ultimately glorified upon our death when we are changed and taken to be with God in heaven.

ROMANS 8:30

"And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."

The Sequence of Salvation

Philippians 1:6
"And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ."

Hi Hazelponi, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom. I am grateful for the time and energy you put into this.

This is what I still don't understand. Imagine this scenario, a person knows they are messed up. Lets just suppose they are an alcoholic. They pray passionately, earnestly, desperately, to God for help and forgiveness. But they never change, they continue to drink and inflict themselves and their family and others around them. Then they get into a drunken horrible car crash killing a whole family as well as themselves. Are they saved?

Does God regenerate all people or a select, chosen few? If He regenerates everybody, I can see where some will reject Him and perish. But what about those who want to be saved but, at least based on behavior, aren't.

Lets say a person is transgender. They know they are broken. They desperately wish to be something they can never be. They pray to God earnestly for help but the way they feel never changes. The problem is overwhelming and beyond their ability to change themselves. Can they carry this sin to the grave and be saved? In that case where is the change of heart, the change of desires? What about the command to sin no more?

Thank you

 

[pleinmont]

There is now no condemnation for sin IF you have the Spirit of Christ in you.

If, IF..

We are no longer under the law of the flesh, but we ARE, if Christ be in us, under the law of the Spirit.

Antinomianism is condemned in the Bible as false, so is fleshly lawkeeping, there is something in between, that of keeping the spiritual law that is made possible in the sanctification process available to those with the Spirit of God.

The Holy Spirit isn't some emotion, it's a new consciousness of what sin is, and what it is not. It's a guidance which pairs with the Bible in perfect harmony.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 We are under the New Covenant now.

Why do we spread the Gospel to all?

How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? Romans 10:14

"And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself." John 12:32


"So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ" Romans 10:17

Hearing can be understood as hearing with the ears, and understood also as an understanding.

It is by Christ Spirit we understand, but through hearing with the ears is what moves us to that understanding.

The best scripture describing this is in Acts 16:14:

"One of those listening [to Paul preach] was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message."

None of that seems in the slightest bit credible to me.

 

[d taylor]

I got unsaved when I realised my faith had no validity.

A person when they understand how to receive eternal life and they trust in the correct object (The Messiah) for eternal life then they have eternal life never to lose it.
So a person who has trusted in Jesus for the free gift of eternal life can not get unsaved.

The problem is, many people seeking salvation look to themselves and thing they are told to do, by a church, pastor, other people, etc.. for their salvation.

So they think they have salvation (eternal life), then when they grow tired of following the directions they were given, and go back, to say a life without church, etc, they think they have lost their salvation (eternal life).

When in reality they never trusted in The Messiah for eternal life to begin with and never received God's free gift of eternal life. Many people may fall into this type of situation.

 

[Unsavable]

None of that seems in the slightest bit credible to me.

Hi Pleinmont,

Please expand on why you think that.

Thank you

 

[Hazelelponi]

Hi Hazelponi, thank you for sharing your knowledge and wisdom. I am grateful for the time and energy you put into this.

This is what I still don't understand. Imagine this scenario, a person knows they are messed up. Lets just suppose they are an alcoholic. They pray passionately, earnestly, desperately, to God for help and forgiveness. But they never change, they continue to drink and inflict themselves and their family and others around them. Then they get into a drunken horrible car crash killing a whole family as well as themselves. Are they saved?

Does God regenerate all people or a select, chosen few? If He regenerates everybody, I can see where some will reject Him and perish. But what about those who want to be saved but, at least based on behavior, aren't.

Lets say a person is transgender. They know they are broken. They desperately wish to be something they can never be. They pray to God earnestly for help but they way they feel never changes. The problem is overwhelming and beyond their ability to change themselves. Can they carry this sin to the grave and be saved? In that case where is the change of heart, the change of desires? What about the command to sin no more?

Thank you

I wasn't an alcoholic or a transgender person. But I was a very addicted smoker when I was saved.

I had been trying since I was 27 to quit smoking, and literally tried everything from hypnosis to one medication after the other even the patch and just could not quit smoking (pre-saved) Even after my doctor declared I would die if I didn't quit smoking (my health was seriously suffering) I still could not quit..

My kids used to laugh at me saying I was going to be one of those little old ladies on oxygen with emphysema still trying to suck down a cigarette.. No one who knew me thought I would be able to quit, everyone who knew me knew how much I tried and how much I wanted to, but quitting was beyond my reach. So I resigned to my fate at one point.

Fast forward and I believed in Jesus for my salvation, and the very first thing the Holy Spirit moved me to do was to quit smoking.. lol. Yep...

So I prayed to God saying I cannot do this thing you ask of me. ..

God brought to me two passages, the first was those who Christ set free are "free indeed" And the second was 1 Corinthians 10:13 that no temptation shall overtake us that God will not make a way to escape so that we will be able to bear it.

So at any rate very shortly thereafter I ran into vaping as a means to quit smoking, spoke to my doctor about it and bought everything I needed, and vaped for about a year slowly decreasing my nicotine levels and then worked on ridding myself of the hand to mouth habit.

I had some failures, and some successes and now I'm smoke free, and vape free, although I keep vape gear around in case I falter...

There's a homosexual on the forums that occasionally struggles with old feelings coming to the surface and he's still not attracted to women but he's overcoming and a majority of the time is successful in not even thinking about it anymore.

Here's the thing. We aren't perfect when we are saved. And having the occasional fall or failure after your saved is perfectly normal.. it's not easy to change our lives, but in Christ we can overcome.

I think God loves the man who has occasional struggles yet recognizes his need for Christ above the man who feels righteous in his own mind....

We will struggle, the alcoholic may occasionally mess up, the former smoker might occasionally want a cigarette, the homosexual may occasionally look at a same sex person and feel attraction.

The key is keeping our minds set on Christ, and resisting temptation - and if temptation over takes us and we fall, we repent and ask forgiveness.

For some sanctification takes longer than others, but for all it's an exercise in faith; putting our faith in Him, that He has set us free and that we can overcome this flesh.

The ONLY time sin is a problem is when you continue happily and joyfully in it, after your saved and convicted of sin.

How Does ‘Willful Sinning’ Threaten My Salvation?

^^^ This is an awesome article you may benefit from. ..

 

[Hazelelponi]

None of that seems in the slightest bit credible to me.

I don't expect it would..

God bless.

 

[Unsavable]

I wasn't an alcoholic or a transgender person. But I was a very addicted smoker when I was saved.

I had been trying since I was 27 to quit smoking, and literally tried everything from hypnosis to one medication after the other even the patch and just could not quit smoking (pre-saved) Even after my doctor declared I would die if I didn't quit smoking (my health was seriously suffering) I still could not quit..

My kids used to laugh at me saying I was going to be one of those little old ladies on oxygen with emphysema still trying to suck down a cigarette.. No one who knew me thought I would be able to quit, everyone who knew me knew how much I tried and how much I wanted to, but quitting was beyond my reach. So I resigned to my fate at one point.

Fast forward and I believed in Jesus for my salvation, and the very first thing the Holy Spirit moved me to do was to quit smoking.. lol. Yep...

So I prayed to God saying I cannot do this thing you ask of me. ..

God brought to me two passages, the first was those who Christ set free are "free indeed" And the second was 1 Corinthians 10:13 that no temptation shall overtake us that God will not make a way to escape so that we will be able to bear it.

So at any rate very shortly thereafter I ran into vaping as a means to quit smoking, spoke to my doctor about it and bought everything I needed, and vaped for about a year slowly decreasing my nicotine levels and then worked on ridding myself of the hand to mouth habit.

I had some failures, and some successes and now I'm smoke free, and vape free, although I keep vape gear around in case I falter...

There's a homosexual on the forums that occasionally struggles with old feelings coming to the surface and he's still not attracted to women but he's overcoming and a majority of the time is successful in not even thinking about it anymore.

Here's the thing. We aren't perfect when we are saved. And having the occasional fall or failure after your saved is perfectly normal.. it's not easy to change our lives, but in Christ we can overcome.

I think God loves the man who has occasional struggles yet recognizes his need for Christ above the man who feels righteous in his own mind....

We will struggle, the alcoholic may occasionally mess up, the former smoker might occasionally want a cigarette, the homosexual may occasionally look at a same sex person and feel attraction.

The key is keeping our minds set on Christ, and resisting temptation - and if temptation over takes us and we fall, we repent and ask forgiveness.

For some sanctification takes longer than others, but for all it's an exercise in faith; putting our faith in Him, that He has set us free and that we can overcome this flesh.

The ONLY time sin is a problem is when you continue happily and joyfully in it, after your saved and convicted of sin.

How Does ‘Willful Sinning’ Threaten My Salvation?

^^^ This is an awesome article you may benefit from. ..

Thank you for revealing your own struggles. And thank you for these hope filled words.

 

[paul1149]

Thank you Paul. Thank you for sharing these words. I get what you say but there is a piece I don't get. If I am dead in sin and pray for forgiveness then the promise is that there will be no condemnation, the Holy Spirit will dwell in me, and my heart will be changed. However, if someone is not changed, what happened? Can it possibly be their fault if we have already acknowledged the person is dead to sin and can't do anything to change themselves.

When I ask this question of others they suggest the person is doing something wrong. They weren't sincere or they are asking for selfish reasons or whatever. But it can't be their fault, can it? Their sin condition would forever prevent them from asking from a spiritually, mentally, correct place.

I would leave the concept of fault alone. It is not going to do any good. You can spend the rest of your life contemplating where blame lies.

It comes down to this. Romans 10 says there are two requirements for salvation: believe in your heart, confess with your mouth. One involves faith; the other, obedience. As James says, works complete our faith.

It doesn't need to be more complicated than that. The problem is we lack faith and so keep taking our temperature, to see if it's “working”. But like when the cook who keeps opening the oven to check the cupcakes, they never get done.

Thus the necessity of grace, as I've been trying to describe.

For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace. -Rom 6.14​

Does that promise immediate victory? No. That's going to depend on the person and circumstances. It does promise ultimate manifest victory, and it promises victory in the spirit before you get there.

If we should say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

If we should confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. -1John 1:8-9​

Notice context is that we have sin, not that we don’t have it. So if you're a sinner, you're eligible. Next, we have to confess. But then two things occur. God forgives, and then He cleanses. The forgiveness is right away; the cleansing might take a while. Otherwise, and this wouldn't have had to be written:

For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. - Php1.6​

You see, it's a process. It comes down to heb 11.6:

And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.​

I would say to stop looking for results, and just be sure you're doing what you're supposed to be doing: approaching God in faith, meditating on His word in faith, praying in faith. You take care of your end, God will uphold His end.

This leads me to the question predestination. Doesn't the bible say that your name is written in the Book of Life from the beginning of time? What good is it to have free will to accept grace if you have been left out of the book from the beginning of time?

There would be no point, and indeed most Calvinists do not believe in free will.

Plus there are many people, even many people who post on this site, who believe they are saved but I see them justifying sin and leading others, biblical and objectively, into sin in the name of Jesus.

To their point, if there is no condemnation then I can freely sin without concern. Hey everybody, lets party! Unless your desires change. So people get depressed because their desires don't change and they know they are not saved. Why get depressed, there is no longer a consequence for sin.

Thank you

That’s grace abuse, and it clearly shows a carnal attitude of the heart. If your focus is on God, not yourself, you will not fall into that trap, because you know God is holy and He wants you to be as well.

The problem is performance orientation. If you focus on yourself, you either do not measure up, in which case you either think you are not saved or God doesn't exist, or you think you can do anything, because it's all been done for you. Neither is true. We need to be god-focused.

Not sure what else I can say. If you apply yourself to these things, they will change your outlook, attitude, and life. The Lord Jesus is faithful to transform you into His image. But not for nothing we are told to endure and persevere.

Make absolutely sure you are feeding on the Word regularly. The truth is there, and many religious lies, the deceptions of man, are about. God loves you and wants you saved. Say yes, and then get on with it. And don’t look back.