Saved Only by Grace?

SeventhValley · Sep 12, 2013

1 Timothy 1:18-19 HCSB

Timothy, my son, I am giving you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies previously made about you, so that by them you may strongly engage in battle, having faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and have suffered the shipwreck of their faith.

Legionwrex · Sep 12, 2013

Well clearly we are saved by grace. Grace by it's very nature is not something you can somehow qualify for, either by works or no. Rather grace is received through faith alone in Christ alone. Then following salvation their should be good works, however I would be careful to judge whether someone is saved or not based solely on their works.

SeventhValley · Sep 12, 2013

John 15:5-6 HCSB

I am the vine; you are the branches. The one who remains in Me and I in him produces much fruit, because you can do nothing without Me. If anyone does not remain in Me, he is thrown aside like a branch and he withers. They gather them, throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Hammster · Sep 12, 2013

SeventhValley said:
Hebrews 10:26-27, 35-39 HCSB

For if we deliberately sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire about to consume the adversaries.......... So dont throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you need endurance, so that after you have done Gods will, you may receive what was promised. For yet in a very little while, the Coming One will come and not delay. But My righteous one will live by faith; and if he draws back, I have no pleasure in him. But we are not those who draw back and are destroyed, but those who have faith and obtain life.

Why did you take that verse out of context?

Hammster · Sep 12, 2013

SeventhValley said:
1 Timothy 1:18-19 HCSB

Timothy, my son, I am giving you this instruction in keeping with the prophecies previously made about you, so that by them you may strongly engage in battle, having faith and a good conscience. Some have rejected these and have suffered the shipwreck of their faith.

Did Paul say that they lost their salvation?

SeventhValley · Sep 12, 2013

While none can take us out of God's hand we can cut ourselves off because of demonic influence or Jesus can throw us out of his hand as the parable of the talents illustrates.

SeventhValley · Sep 12, 2013

They were given over to the devil to learn a permanent lesson. One cannot be of Satan and Christ.

SeventhValley · Sep 12, 2013

I leave you with this warning if you believe you can sin all you want with no repentance because of easy believism or predestination you will cut yourself off from Christ.

Hammster · Sep 12, 2013

SeventhValley said:
They were given over to the devil to learn a permanent lesson. One cannot be of Satan and Christ.

So much for the being saved by grace.

SeventhValley · Sep 12, 2013

We are saved by grace but Jesus requires action also. As long as we keep our gaze in Christ we will have assurance. If we take our gaze off him we will be cut off by him.

KaylaHansa · Sep 12, 2013

I kind of agree with SeventhValley. From my personal reading for the Bible, there seems to be biblical evidence of the ability to lose salvation. However, I don't think you lose it because you don't have enough works or you didn't try hard enough but rather if you all knowingly, all purposefully, and repeatedly refuse Christ. For example, if you know something is sin, but you don't care and keep sinning, feel no remorse, don't try to stop at all, but just keep asking God to forgive you for that sin, God will hold you accountable to that. If you are truly saved, He will warn you and probably with a loud and painful voice...patiently....waiting for you to to turn away... because He cares for you and is zealous for you... but if you refuse then you will lose your salvation. At least thats what Hebrews 10:26 speaks to me...

OzSpen · Sep 13, 2013

Hammster said:
Did Paul say that they lost their salvation?

So what does 'shipwreck of their faith mean'? http://www.tourfraserisland.com.au/shipwreck.phpThe Maheno ship wreck on the shores of Fraser Island (only 3 hours north of where I live in Brisbane) is useless, wrecked as a viable ship.

Is a shipwrecked faith viable or not to enter the sea of eternal life? Or is shipwrecked faith as useless as the Maheno as a ship in the Pacific Ocean?

Oz

Hentenza · Sep 13, 2013

KaylaHansa said:
I kind of agree with SeventhValley. From my personal reading for the Bible, there seems to be biblical evidence of the ability to lose salvation. However, I don't think you lose it because you don't have enough works or you didn't try hard enough but rather if you all knowingly, all purposefully, and repeatedly refuse Christ. For example, if you know something is sin, but you don't care and keep sinning, feel no remorse, don't try to stop at all, but just keep asking God to forgive you for that sin, God will hold you accountable to that. If you are truly saved, He will warn you and probably with a loud and painful voice...patiently....waiting for you to to turn away... because He cares for you and is zealous for you... but if you refuse then you will lose your salvation. At least thats what Hebrews 10:26 speaks to me...

Paul explains the judgment of the believer in 1 Cor. 3.

11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, [d]precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each mans work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test [e]the quality of each mans work. 14 If any mans work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15 If any mans work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

Your works (which include your actions including sins) will be tested but only to ascertain a reward (the bible speaks of 7 crowns that are to be our rewards). However, the person is saved.

Hammster · Sep 13, 2013

OzSpen said:
So what does 'shipwreck of their faith mean'? http://www.tourfraserisland.com.au/shipwreck.phpThe Maheno ship wreck on the shores of Fraser Island (only 3 hours north of where I live in Brisbane) is useless, wrecked as a viable ship.

Is a shipwrecked faith viable or not to enter the sea of eternal life? Or is shipwrecked faith as useless as the Maheno as a ship in the Pacific Ocean?

Oz

This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Timothy 1:18-20 NASB)

It would appear that Paul has I'm mind correction for these two. Not because they lost their salvation, but because they are not acting in the right manner. Paul is hoping that they will be corrected (taught).

Hammster · Sep 13, 2013

KaylaHansa said:
I kind of agree with SeventhValley. From my personal reading for the Bible, there seems to be biblical evidence of the ability to lose salvation. However, I don't think you lose it because you don't have enough works or you didn't try hard enough but rather if you all knowingly, all purposefully, and repeatedly refuse Christ. For example, if you know something is sin, but you don't care and keep sinning, feel no remorse, don't try to stop at all, but just keep asking God to forgive you for that sin, God will hold you accountable to that. If you are truly saved, He will warn you and probably with a loud and painful voice...patiently....waiting for you to to turn away... because He cares for you and is zealous for you... but if you refuse then you will lose your salvation. At least thats what Hebrews 10:26 speaks to me...

10:26, if looked at in the context of the letter, is letting the Jews (the recipient of the letter) know that if they reject Christ, their old sacrificial system will be of no benefit.

SeventhValley · Sep 13, 2013

Hammster said:
It would appear that Paul has I'm mind correction for these two. Not because they lost their salvation, but because they are not acting in the right manner. Paul is hoping that they will be corrected (taught).

I agree they might put their faith back in Christ(fixing their ship) but they might not(their ship stays wrecked). Paul shows some indeed had saving faith at one time but were handed over to Satan(shipwrecked). One who trusts Satan and not Christ has cut themselfs off from Christ and have withered. Maybe they will come around as their fate is not setteled until death but maybe they will not.

Hammster · Sep 13, 2013

SeventhValley said:
I agree they might put their faith back in Christ(fixing their ship) but they might not(their ship stays wrecked). Paul shows some indeed had saving faith at one time but were handed over to Satan(shipwrecked). One who trusts Satan and not Christ has cut themselfs off from Christ and have withered. Maybe they will come around as their fate is not setteled until death but maybe they will not.

It still says nothing of them losing their salvation.

SeventhValley · Sep 13, 2013

Hammster said:
It still says nothing of them losing their salvation.

So you believe those in the hands of the devil are saved? Universalism.........

OzSpen · Sep 13, 2013

Hammster said:
This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight, keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith. Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme. (1 Timothy 1:18-20 NASB)

It would appear that Paul has I'm mind correction for these two. Not because they lost their salvation, but because they are not acting in the right manner. Paul is hoping that they will be corrected (taught).

Paul has a motivation to deal with 'keeping faith and a good conscience' or 'holding faith and a good conscience' (ESV). In context this is faith in the prophecies (apostolic teaching?) he had received.

What had Hymenaeus and Alexander done to 'shipwreck' their faith. Arndt & Gingrich's Greek lexicon gives the meaning of this word from apwthew as 'reject, repudiate' (1957:102). Therefore Lenski's commentary, based on the Greek, concludes that

they got so far away from the apostolic prophecies that they did even what is here stated regarding their conscience and their faith. Paul himself had dealt with two of them, and when he held up to them the prophecies, i. e., the apostolic gospel teaching, and thereby tried to reach their conscience he found that they had actually thrust all good conscience away and had thereby lost their faith altogether. The true gospel teaching no longer made an impression on them, it had been smothered by their myths, etc (1937:532-533).

The consequence for Hymenaeus and Alexander was that Paul has them 'handed over to Satan'. What this means exactly has been the cause of much debate. However, it seems evident that these two men no longer have a good conscience and faith, so it seems that Paul means that these two are '"put back into Satan's sphere," outside the church and the fellowship of God's people.... Paul expects by such an "excommunication" they will "be caught not to blaspheme"' (Gordon D Fee 1988:59).

What 'blaspheme' means here is not certain but there are hints in context. In 1:13 Paul says of his life before Christ, 'formerly I was a blasphemer' and in 6:4 he states that 'slander' (ESV) or 'malicious talk' (NIV) that come out of 'a different doctrine' (ESV) or 'false doctrines' (NIV). However the word is blasphemiai (i.e. blasphemies). This is from a list of what happens as a result of false teachers who had 'an unhealthy craving for controversy' (6:4 ESV).

Thus handing over to Satan seems to be an action of excommunication because they had rejected God's grace for salvation and had pursued the arguments of the false teachers. It seems that Timothy was in Ephesus to deal with the false doctrine that was being perpetrated by false teachers and this was leading people away from the faith.

Oz

Hammster · Sep 13, 2013

SeventhValley said:
So you believe those in the hands of the devil are saved? Universalism.........

I believe God uses different means to discipline His children.

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