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Saved??? From what???

PROPHECYKID

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They did know a rule...... "don't eat of that tree or you will surely die". It was actually a commandment rather than a law. This scripture below explains; that when Adam sinned, it was when death was passed down to all men.
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The wisdom given in this text above teaches us that; God established "the wages of sin is death" with Adam.
What Paul teaches in the next 2verses is a knockout punch to SDA theology, that sin is transgression of the law. Their claim is; if there is no law there is no sin.
Paul explains that sin was in the world before the law.(so there was sin before law) Paul gives us a timeline from Adam to Moses, that God judged sin with death not law.Rom 5:13 (proving no law before Moses)
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Paul is actually giving us facts as written from Genesis and Exodus.
Mystery indeed, your teaching seems as a bridge to nowhere.

No law before Moses is not scriptural.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

If you look at how the books of Moses are structured, the first 12 or so chapters span about over 2000 years while the rest of the chapter spans about 100 years. Obviously Moses gives a brief account of how we get to Abraham because it is through Abraham, the plan of salvation is taught and spread to the world as he is the father of many nations. We cannot then state, that because nothing is mentioned in the early chapters about God giving any laws that WE KNOW FOR SURE that no law was given.

From Genesis 26 we know God gave commands and laws to Abraham and we are not told what they are specifically. If Abraham disobeyed God's charge, commandments and statutes he would be sinning. Would he not?

So to say there was no law at all before Moses is not right.
 
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Cribstyl

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No law before Moses is not scriptural.

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

If you look at how the books of Moses are structured, the first 12 or so chapters span about over 2000 years while the rest of the chapter spans about 100 years. Obviously Moses gives a brief account of how we get to Abraham because it is through Abraham, the plan of salvation is taught and spread to the world as he is the father of many nations. We cannot then state, that because nothing is mentioned in the early chapters about God giving any laws that WE KNOW FOR SURE that no law was given.

From Genesis 26 we know God gave commands and laws to Abraham and we are not told what they are specifically. If Abraham disobeyed God's charge, commandments and statutes he would be sinning. Would he not?

So to say there was no law at all before Moses is not right.
Thanks for input PK:thumbsup:

It's a nobrainer that from Genesis 12-26 we can read that Abraham heard God's voice, in which God charged him to leave his father's house, commanded him to sacrifice Isaac and gave him circumcision as a law.
The problem is how SDA seize on words and by adding commentary to claim that Abraham kept the ten commandments including the sabbath.

'The gospel' or 'the plan of salvation' is also 'the promise'..." It was a prophetic word given to Abraham that all the nations of the world would be blessed through his seed... Jesus.
....................................................................................
It may sound contradictory but yes there was always law.
It take some understanding to know that there is a difference between 'law' and 'the law'. 1)We can claim that marriage was a creation instituted law because it was given for all creatures primarily to be fruitful and multiply life.
We can claim what's known as the Noahide laws. One of it's 6 commandment is:
Gen 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Thanks for input PK:thumbsup:

It's a nobrainer that from Genesis 12-26 we can read that Abraham heard God's voice, in which God charged him to leave his father's house, commanded him to sacrifice Isaac and gave him circumcision as a law.
The problem is how SDA seize on words and by adding commentary to claim that Abraham kept the ten commandments including the sabbath.

'The gospel' or 'the plan of salvation' is also 'the promise'..." It was a prophetic word given to Abraham that all the nations of the world would be blessed through his seed... Jesus.
....................................................................................
It may sound contradictory but yes there was always law.
It take some understanding to know that there is a difference between 'law' and 'the law'. 1)We can claim that marriage was a creation instituted law because it was given for all creatures primarily to be fruitful and multiply life.
We can claim what's known as the Noahide laws. One of it's 6 commandment is:
Gen 9:6
Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

Well I think I had stated that the principles of the ten commandments had already existed. When the bible says sin is the trangression of the law, I do not look at it as sin is the trangression of the ten commandments written on tables of stone. Its a principle. Its a natural law like gravity. In order for anyone at any period of time to commit any sin there must be a law that they violated. Sin cannot exist without a law.

When Paul says sin was before the law, he is referring to the giving of the 10 commandments as a unit. But in principle once there is sin there is a law or a rule that is broken. A judgement must be made to determine if something is wrong or right. God determines wrong or right. Bur wrong or right must be determined by some sort of law.

So Adam and Eve sinned because they broke a rule. Now we are not told anywhere before the story of Cain and Abel where God said that murder was wrong. But Adam lives for 930 years and all we know in Adams entire life is the experience with him and eve in the garden. It is completely possible and reasonable that God at some point would have taught Adam and his children the very principles he taught to Abraham and the very principles he taught to Israel.

It is just an assumption that we believe because it is not mentioned where God gave any laws to those before Israel that there was none given when 99% of there lives are not covered in the bible. BTW, I am an SDA.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Thanks for input PK:thumbsup:

It's a nobrainer that from Genesis 12-26 we can read that Abraham heard God's voice, in which God charged him to leave his father's house, commanded him to sacrifice Isaac and gave him circumcision as a law.

Also those things you mentioned are examples but I don't think that is all the text is referring to. Laws, statues, commandments and charge is a lot more than what is recorded.
 
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Cribstyl

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Well I think I had stated that the principles of the ten commandments had already existed.
That is an argument base on assumption not fact.

When the bible says sin is the trangression of the law, I do not look at it as sin is the trangression of the ten commandments written on tables of stone. Its a principle. Its a natural law like gravity. In order for anyone at any period of time to commit any sin there must be a law that they violated. Sin cannot exist without a law.
SDA commentary use this text to put the ten commandments before Adam. Correct translation of 1John3:4 is not talking even about law but SDA put the 10.com tag on this verse. The word 'anomia' is defined as having no law at all; lawlessness. Take a look at all bibles on this verse. It really too bad that SDA seized this text as a premise. That translation was corrected in the NKJV. We now have 4 generation of SDA using 1John3:4 to contradict Paul.
It's really a nobrainer to understand that once the law was given, sin is transgression of that law.
Heres a look at what John was saying......ESV Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

When Paul says sin was before the law, he is referring to the giving of the 10 commandments as a unit. But in principle once there is sin there is a law or a rule that is broken. A judgement must be made to determine if something is wrong or right. God determines wrong or right. Bur wrong or right must be determined by some sort of law.
You're smoothe with kinda admitting to some bible facts...^_^
Here's the truth about sin.
God was the first one to use the word sin.
God explained to Cain, that sin is something within a person that want to come out and rule their life.
Being in the image of God is the mark we keep missing, and that's how sin is defined.
Paul, John, Jesus and scriptual evidence cant be wrong about the origin of the law.


So Adam and Eve sinned because they broke a rule. Now we are not told anywhere before the story of Cain and Abel where God said that murder was wrong. But Adam lives for 930 years and all we know in Adams entire life is the experience with him and eve in the garden. It is completely possible and reasonable that God at some point would have taught Adam and his children the very principles he taught to Abraham and the very principles he taught to Israel.
Did God say murder was wrong? Did God hint Cain about a law? Did God say; Cain you gave the wrong sacrifice? If you build a foundation on things that God never said you're. The problem is evident when they an apostle like John says; The law came by Moses.
It is just an assumption that we believe because it is not mentioned where God gave any laws to those before Israel that there was none given when 99% of there lives are not covered in the bible. BTW, I am an SDA.
PK, I know you very well from both the progressive and Traditional SDA section of CF. I have seen these socalled footprints that appear to suggest law before Moses. It begins with talking about Abel's blood sacrifice, Noah's clean animals, Abraham kept the law, Joseph knowing about Adultery........ and other questional scriptures with keywords.

:cool::cool::cool:
 
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Cribstyl

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Also those things you mentioned are examples but I don't think that is all the text is referring to. Laws, statues, commandments and charge is a lot more than what is recorded.
Sound like you're not so sure, but you default thinking that the 10.com was present. Truth is, your other source have a lot to say about these questions.;)
 
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PROPHECYKID

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That is an argument base on assumption not fact.

It has to be a fact simply because it then means God would have suddently decided that those things were sins and had no problem with it before. Since God and therefore, God's character and morality does not change he must have always have believed in the principles of the 10 commandments.

SDA commentary use this text to put the ten commandments before Adam. Correct translation of 1John3:4 is not talking even about law but SDA put the 10.com tag on this verse. The word 'anomia' is defined as having no law at all; lawlessness. Take a look at all bibles on this verse. It really too bad that SDA seized this text as a premise. That translation was corrected in the NKJV. We now have 4 generation of SDA using 1John3:4 to contradict Paul.
It's really a nobrainer to understand that once the law was given, sin is transgression of that law.
Heres a look at what John was saying......ESV Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness.

Well like I did say, I do not narrowly look at the verse as referring to the 10 commandments but to the relationship of sin and law in general. You may consider it an assumption to say that the 10 commandments existed before Adam but to me, the principles of the 10 commandments among other things must have also existed because the 10 commandments is based on love and those principles are not something that God just suddenly came up with.

Answer me this. How many of the 10 commandments did the children of Israel not already know?

Did God say murder was wrong? Did God hint Cain about a law? Did God say; Cain you gave the wrong sacrifice? If you build a foundation on things that God never said you're. The problem is evident when they an apostle like John says; The law came by Moses.

So you're going to say God never said that. Cain never knew murder was wrong either through God directly or God indirectly through his parents? All morality comes from God. Cain never knew what he was supposed to sacrifice? God never told Noah exactly which animals were clean or unclean?

PK, I know you very well from both the progressive and Traditional SDA section of CF. I have seen these socalled footprints that appear to suggest law before Moses. It begins with talking about Abel's blood sacrifice, Noah's clean animals, Abraham kept the law, Joseph knowing about Adultery........ and other questional scriptures with keywords.

I don't think that's true. I am nearly never in those forums. I don't remember the last time I posted anything in there. And about the footprints, they are all valid. See you say the absence of a definite account of any laws given means there were not. I say the lack of a definite account does not mean they were not, and those pieces of evidence among others makes a strong case that they were. It don't believe God wrote the law down anywhere for them but I believe they knew it because he intimated it either to them or through Adam and Eve who would have taught their children and so on. Cain was not innocent of his crime.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Sound like you're not so sure, but you default thinking that the 10.com was present. Truth is, your other source have a lot to say about these questions.;)

So let me ask you this. Let's just start with something easy as murder. Did the law or the principle of the law which says thou shalt not murder did not exist before the commandment was actually written on stone?
 
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squint

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So let me ask you this. Let's just start with something easy as murder. Did the law or the principle of the law which says thou shalt not murder did not exist before the commandment was actually written on stone?

It gets old fast having to do the same drill with legalists who in reality know little of the law and it's workings.

Do you seriously not know that the 'law' against murder invokes thinking about murdering within?

and that activity points us to the factual presence of SIN within us all?

Trying to base the examples of applications of law in the strictly external senses are not only worthless, but NOT taught that way by the Apostles or Jesus.

Evil comes from within. The Law ALERTS us to the fact of evil being present regardless of our 'feigned' external legality. emphasis on FEIGNED or better yet, PHONY legality.

If we could see inside another person's mind or heart this activity would be obvious to everyone.

But fortunately we are left to ourselves to at least attempt honesty within.

Those who are honest will at least speak honestly.

Paul, in Romans 7 showed us exactly 'how' the law works in relationship to sin and guess what? The law against coveting/lust provoked 'every manner' of concupiscence within him. Did you hear? Within him? It's always an adverse relationship between LAW and the continuing presence of indwelling sin.

Painting up the exterior of the tomb with legality is pointless and fruitless.

That is not the measure of LAW.


So you didn't murder? Bravo. Sin causes everyone of us to consider it and to think about it no differently than the law of adultery carries the same ADVERSE internal consequences.

All pharisees LOVE to judge themselves on the outside of the cup.

s
 
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squint

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What are we saved from?

[FONT=&quot]Just for fun and flavor.

What are we 'saved from?:

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-enemies[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Luke 1:71- 74)
-Gentiles (Acts 26:17)
-money (Luke 19:8-10)
-sinking (Mat 8:24-25,Mat 14:30)
-earthly trials (2 Pet 2:9)
-Egyptians (Jude 1:5)
-war (Luke 1:79)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-Death[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Mark 15:30-31,Mark 3:4,Luke 6:9,Luke 23:35-39,John 12:27,Acts 27:43; 2 Tim 1:8-10,Heb 5:7; James 5:15,James 5:20). Many of the references to being saved from death seem to refer to a kind of spiritual death
-sickness (Luke 7:50,Luke 13:16,John 3:16)
-loosing one’s life to save it, in effect saved from ourselves (Mark 8:34-38,Luke 9:23-25)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]-sins[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Mat 1:21,Luke 1:77,John 1:29,John 8:33-36,Acts 5:31,Acts 13:36-39,Acts 26:18; 1 Pet 2:21-25)
-slavery to evil behaviour and passions (Tit 3:3-5)
-slavery to sin (Rom 6:16-23,Rom 7:21-25, 8:1-4, 1 Tim 1:15)
-slavery to futility and bondage to decay
(Rom 8:19-21)
-slavery to the mastery of darkness (Col 1:13-14)
-captivity to the present evil age (Gal 1:3-4)
-slavery to the elemental spirits of the universe (Gal 4:3-6,Gal 4:31-5:1)
-impiety and worldly passions (Tit 2:11-14)
-a corrupt generation (Acts 2:40)
-the defilements of this world (2 Pet 2:20)
-a pointless life following the ruling powers of evil (Eph 2:1-5)
-futile ways of living (1 Pet 1:18-19, 1Pet 2:1-2?).
-the devil (my personal favorite of course) (Mat 6:13,Luke 13:16,Acts 26:18; Heb 2:14-15; Rev 12:10; 2 Tim 4:18)
-our fleshly bodies (Phil 3:20-21)
-going astray (1 Pet 2:21-25)
-not being in the Kingdom of God (Mat 19:23-26)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

s[/FONT]
 
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Cribstyl

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It has to be a fact simply because it then means God would have suddently decided that those things were sins and had no problem with it before. Since God and therefore, God's character and morality does not change he must have always have believed in the principles of the 10 commandments.
:doh: Your theology is different from mainstream. You've been taught that the ten commandments is the character ot God. The truth is; God's attributes reflexs His character. The bible teaches us that God is love. Which of the ten reflects love? The bible teaches us that God is Holy. Which of the ten commandment reflect His holiness? The bible teaches that God is grace. Which of the ten reflects grace?
God's character is innumerable, it's just bad theology to restrict His character to the ten.com.
The attribute that; God is righteous does reflect His character as judge. The fact that God has established His judgment will not be by the law is knockout to SDA theology. (let's talk about that if you want too)

Truth is, the first three commandment shows that God is a jealous God. The 4th is a test to prove which God your serve. The rest of the commandment reflexs coveteousness man. Can God steal, commit adultery? It just seems like bad theology to connect God's charactor with the ten



Well like I did say, I do not narrowly look at the verse as referring to the 10 commandments but to the relationship of sin and law in general. You may consider it an assumption to say that the 10 commandments existed before Adam but to me, the principles of the 10 commandments among other things must have also existed because the 10 commandments is based on love and those principles are not something that God just suddenly came up with.
:doh:C'mon man, 'sin is trangression of the law' is a premise to you and all SDA. And that law is the 10 commandments.

Answer me this. How many of the 10 commandments did the children of Israel not already know?
Being created in the image of God bares the responsibility to be holy. Paul said Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

This mean to me: I was made by God in His image, I have no excuse.....

So you're going to say God never said that. Cain never knew murder was wrong either through God directly or God indirectly through his parents? All morality comes from God. Cain never knew what he was supposed to sacrifice? God never told Noah exactly which animals were clean or unclean?
Straw arguments that are repeated and counted as a SDA peice of the puzzle

I don't think that's true. I am nearly never in those forums. I don't remember the last time I posted anything in there. And about the footprints, they are all valid. See you say the absence of a definite account of any laws given means there were not. I say the lack of a definite account does not mean they were not, and those pieces of evidence among others makes a strong case that they were. It don't believe God wrote the law down anywhere for them but I believe they knew it because he intimated it either to them or through Adam and Eve who would have taught their children and so on. Cain was not innocent of his crime.
I left those rooms years ago (reluctantly I might add). But I will do a fact check by creating a thread to see I need to resend.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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It gets old fast having to do the same drill with legalists who in reality know little of the law and it's workings.

Do you seriously not know that the 'law' against murder invokes thinking about murdering within?

and that activity points us to the factual presence of SIN within us all?

Trying to base the examples of applications of law in the strictly external senses are not only worthless, but NOT taught that way by the Apostles or Jesus.

Evil comes from within. The Law ALERTS us to the fact of evil being present regardless of our 'feigned' external legality. emphasis on FEIGNED or better yet, PHONY legality.

If we could see inside another person's mind or heart this activity would be obvious to everyone.

But fortunately we are left to ourselves to at least attempt honesty within.

Those who are honest will at least speak honestly.

Paul, in Romans 7 showed us exactly 'how' the law works in relationship to sin and guess what? The law against coveting/lust provoked 'every manner' of concupiscence within him. Did you hear? Within him? It's always an adverse relationship between LAW and the continuing presence of indwelling sin.

Painting up the exterior of the tomb with legality is pointless and fruitless.

That is not the measure of LAW.


So you didn't murder? Bravo. Sin causes everyone of us to consider it and to think about it no differently than the law of adultery carries the same ADVERSE internal consequences.

All pharisees LOVE to judge themselves on the outside of the cup.

s

You're missing something important. You said this:

Paul, in Romans 7 showed us exactly 'how' the law works in relationship to sin and guess what? The law against coveting/lust provoked 'every manner' of concupiscence within him. Did you hear? Within him? It's always an adverse relationship between LAW and the continuing presence of indwelling sin.

And that is true except when one is guided by the spirit. In the flesh, the law will do everything you described not because the law is bad but because in our nature we are slaves to sin. The more sin we know, the more sin we do. This to the person who is guided by the flesh, the law is terrible news. To the person that is guided by the spirit, its no problem because the spirit would not guide you into sin.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This text specifically says that what the law requires will be fulfilled or done in us who walk after the spirit and not the flesh. Those who walk after the flesh are slaves to sin.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law would oppose the one who is carnal minded and bring death to him.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Again I reiterate that the problem is not the law, but our sinful nature. God's plan is to give us grace to make up for when we fall and also to give us his spirit to guide us into paths of righteousness. Paul in Romans 7 shows the delimna that happens in one who walks after the flesh and then the solution to the problem giving his own experience as an example. The law cannot change anyone by itself because it is only head knowledge and Paul rightly says that through the law he knows what is wrong and right. BUT when he wants to follow what is right in his head, his flesh opposes him and causes him to constantly do wrong. Then he says what shall deliver me from this cycle which only leads to death? Getting rid of the law? No! Paul says he delights in the law of God after the inward man but it is through Jesus Christ that and the Spirit of God wiill one be free from being a slave to sin and not being able to resist their sinful nature.

When children are being raised do you have to teach them how to be selfish or how to share? How to lie or how to tell the truth? Naturally we will all grow up with an affinity to sin whether we know it or not. So our problem is with indwelling sin. Bottom line.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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PK....I searched in your history and found several thread that you created in the Trad section dating back to 2007.
I rest my case.

I would like you to list them for the record and also the dates. Here on in a PM or something. I was not trying to be dishonest, but as far as I can recall, I am hardly ever in any of those sections.
 
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PROPHECYKID

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Your theology is different from mainstream. You've been taught that the ten commandments is the character ot God. The truth is; God's attributes reflexs His character. The bible teaches us that God is love. Which of the ten reflects love? The bible teaches us that God is Holy. Which of the ten commandment reflect His holiness? The bible teaches that God is grace. Which of the ten reflects grace?

Are you serious? Which of the commandments reflect love??? All of them. Why do you think love is the fulfilling of the law?

Mat 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

In other words, love is the basis for all of the law.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

God's character is innumerable, it's just bad theology to restrict His character to the ten.com.
The attribute that; God is righteous does reflect His character as judge. The fact that God has established His judgment will not be by the law is knockout to SDA theology. (let's talk about that if you want too)

God's character is in no way restricted to the 10. But the 10 reveals to us elements of his character. Well lets talk about it. I have no problems doing that once we are discussing the issue in a civil manner. Let me go first then.

What we are ultimately saved from is the penalty of sin. Jesus died in our place so we won't have to. So all of those folks who are covered by the blood would have the righteousness of Christ on their side and his perfect record would be attributed to them. Those who are lost have to stand on their own 2 feet and be judged. Their sin would be judged according to the law since sin is the transgression of the law. Again the law goes against those who are not walking after the spirit and who are not covered by the blood. So it is not wrong to say the law is the standard of the judgement. Those who are saved, would have Jesus representing them.


Truth is, the first three commandment shows that God is a jealous God. The 4th is a test to prove which God your serve. The rest of the commandment reflexs coveteousness man. Can God steal, commit adultery? It just seems like bad theology to connect God's charactor with the ten

The rest show that God is caring for all his creation and he loves all his creation and wants us to respect and love his creation as well.

:doh:C'mon man, 'sin is trangression of the law' is a premise to you and all SDA. And that law is the 10 commandments.

Its a premise in the bible. Yes it is, but it is not limited to just the 10 commandments as it was written on stone. But Jesus taught about the spirit of the law which expands the narrow words written on stone. So lusting is a sin too even though the letter of the law does not mention it.

Being created in the image of God bares the responsibility to be holy. Paul said Rom 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Rom 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

This mean to me: I was made by God in His image, I have no excuse.....

We are all made in the image of God but at the same time we are all fallen. Adam's sin brought the downfall of the human race and the sin problem has no spread to us all. You do not have an excuse, but that does not means we were not all born in sin and shaped in iniquity. That's why we need Jesus

Straw arguments that are repeated and counted as a SDA peice of the puzzle

If I have represented you my apologies. Correct the record then.

I left those rooms years ago (reluctantly I might add). But I will do a fact check by creating a thread to see I need to resend.

Well that explains it. I know that is has been a very very long time since I have been in there so maybe the same time you were there, I used to be in there from time to time, but I never spent most of my time there.
 
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squint

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You're missing something important. You said this:

And that is true except when one is guided by the spirit.

Indeed. One might even expect to be guided into being at a minimum, truthful?

In the flesh, the law will do everything you described

"you" is not the observation of fact put on the table.

Indwelling sin always maintains it's adversarial relationship with the Law, exactly as Paul taught and showed.

That fact doesn't change based on 'external behavior.'

not because the law is bad but because in our nature we are slaves to sin.

Indwelling sin has a nature of it's own. Paul even went on to define that presence as not him, twice in Romans 7.

Paul did not lay out the expectations that indwelling sin would be anything other than what it is.

The more sin we know, the more sin we do. This to the person who is guided by the flesh, the law is terrible news. To the person that is guided by the spirit, its no problem because the spirit would not guide you into sin.

As prior noted. Being led into the false understandings that measures of lawlessness are merely 'external' in nature is a common and patent lie.

Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

This text specifically says that what the law requires will be fulfilled or done in us who walk after the spirit and not the flesh. Those who walk after the flesh are slaves to sin.

No man walks apart from the presence of indwelling sin regardless of their feigned external legal obedience. Did I emphasize feigned/phony yet?
The law would oppose the one who is carnal minded and bring death to him.

The Law opposes indwelling sin, period. No persons indwelling sin changes it's stripes and magically becomes legal and lawful.

When believers speak honestly about this internal activity they would see the futility of their legal claims for what they are.

but rather than do that, they are led into 'excuses' for the continuing facts of that 'internal' activity.
Again I reiterate that the problem is not the law,

Never said it was. I also believe the Law stands fully effective and fully against every sin and evil which same originates within, and does so at the working of the tempter within.

Law matters are not just about MANkind.

Satan is also promoted into actions by what? Yeah, the Word of God, wherever it is sown. Mark 4:15 (and many other like scriptures.)

but our sinful nature. God's plan is to give us grace to make up for when we fall and also to give us his spirit to guide us into paths of righteousness.

Grace has no applicability to indwelling sin, any of it's works OR any devil.

Since the activity of devils is clearly shown to be 'in MAN' in the Gospels, it is pointless to look at 'only man' in these equations.


Sin is intimately linked to SATAN and that can not be changed.

Paul in Romans 7 shows the delimna that happens in one who walks after the flesh and then the solution to the problem giving his own experience as an example.

It's not a question of just man. I don't think any of us realistically have any issues with the Law being against all lawlessness in whomever it is found and it is found IN ALL. Re-gard-less of their feigned claims of legality.

The law cannot change anyone by itself because it is only head knowledge and Paul rightly says that through the law he knows what is wrong and right.

Paul concluded his summary on these matters in Romans 7 by showing us a present inviolate fact about himself, that evil was in fact with him when he sought to do good.

Even in the midst of good, in the midst of supposed 'legality' EVIL was present with Paul.

That fact didn't change for Paul and it doesn't change for any of us either.

Most of the time the battles become much more intense upon belief. And everyone falls into lying about the fact of their internal sins and they continually 'excuse' them and write them off as if they were not there when in fact 'evil comes from and originates from within.' And does so in the forms of EVIL THOUGHTS.

Those are not written off under Grace. Nor are they 'legal.'

BUT when he wants to follow what is right in his head, his flesh opposes him and causes him to constantly do wrong. Then he says what shall deliver me from this cycle which only leads to death? Getting rid of the law? No! Paul says he delights in the law of God after the inward man but it is through Jesus Christ that and the Spirit of God wiill one be free from being a slave to sin and not being able to resist their sinful nature.

Anyone can blame the 'flesh' all they please. The flesh has no thoughts and mind of it's own. It is merely a compilation of organic matter.

Thoughts on the other hand DO have sources. Good from above, wickedness from the tempter.

Both of these operations and operators transpire WITHIN us all. So it is again pointless to see that these are merely matters of the individual when clearly they are not.

I am very glad that the LAW is against the lawless one and it will remain that way til the END of this present wicked and evil age.

Why legalists lend excuses to that internal working is another matter to question.

When children are being raised do you have to teach them how to be selfish or how to share? How to lie or how to tell the truth? Naturally we will all grow up with an affinity to sin whether we know it or not. So our problem is with indwelling sin. Bottom line.

Paul was not evil. Yet he had evil present with him.

Let's not mistake the 2. Paul certainly never claimed his evil present was legal and in fact defined himself, post/after salvation as the chief of sinners.

So much for phony legalism.

s
 
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Setyoufree

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What are we saved from?

[FONT=&quot]Just for fun and flavor.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]What are we 'saved from?:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]-enemies[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Luke 1:71- 74)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Gentiles (Acts 26:17)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-money (Luke 19:8-10)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-sinking (Mat 8:24-25,Mat 14:30)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-earthly trials (2 Pet 2:9)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Egyptians (Jude 1:5)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-war (Luke 1:79)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-Death[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Mark 15:30-31,Mark 3:4,Luke 6:9,Luke 23:35-39,John 12:27,Acts 27:43; 2 Tim 1:8-10,Heb 5:7; James 5:15,James 5:20). Many of the references to being saved from death seem to refer to a kind of spiritual death[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-sickness (Luke 7:50,Luke 13:16,John 3:16)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-loosing one’s life to save it, in effect saved from ourselves (Mark 8:34-38,Luke 9:23-25)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-sins[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Mat 1:21,Luke 1:77,John 1:29,John 8:33-36,Acts 5:31,Acts 13:36-39,Acts 26:18; 1 Pet 2:21-25)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-slavery to evil behaviour and passions (Tit 3:3-5)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-slavery to sin (Rom 6:16-23,Rom 7:21-25, 8:1-4, 1 Tim 1:15)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-slavery to futility and bondage to decay[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Rom 8:19-21)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-slavery to the mastery of darkness (Col 1:13-14)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-captivity to the present evil age (Gal 1:3-4)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-slavery to the elemental spirits of the universe (Gal 4:3-6,Gal 4:31-5:1)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-impiety and worldly passions (Tit 2:11-14)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-a corrupt generation (Acts 2:40)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-the defilements of this world (2 Pet 2:20)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-a pointless life following the ruling powers of evil (Eph 2:1-5)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-futile ways of living (1 Pet 1:18-19, 1Pet 2:1-2?).[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-the devil (my personal favorite of course) (Mat 6:13,Luke 13:16,Acts 26:18; Heb 2:14-15; Rev 12:10; 2 Tim 4:18)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-our fleshly bodies (Phil 3:20-21)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-going astray (1 Pet 2:21-25)[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]-not being in the Kingdom of God (Mat 19:23-26)[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]s[/FONT]

No, Jesus came to save you from the wages of sin, which is the 2nd death or the curse of the law.
 
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squint

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No, Jesus came to save you from the wages of sin, which is the 2nd death or the curse of the law.

I like to think we're saved from everything there in the list and then some.

I have no need to be 'saved' from the law and am quite glad the law is against lawlessness quite frankly. I have no issues with that Divine Intention.

I expect God in Christ to be and remain fully against all sin, lawlessness and evil.

Don't you?

I find it even more fascinating that God Is Great enough to even make good come of same.

s
 
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Setyoufree

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I like to think we're saved from everything there in the list and then some.

I have no need to be 'saved' from the law ...

Sinners need to be saved from law. If you aren't a sinner than you can stand before the law and justify yourself before it. However, that would be a mistake for "there is none righteous, no, not even one."
 
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Setyoufree

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.... God .... remain fully against all sin, lawlessness and evil.

Yes, but we are sinners. So how did God justify the human race without doing away with His holy law that justly condemns all of us? The answer is the gospel....
 
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