Saved??? From what???

[Setyoufree]

What scripture(s) do you have for Christ coming to save us from the law?

You need to re-read what I have already written.

Do you take the position that Christ came to save us from the lake of fire and not the curse of the law?

 

[Setyoufree]

Do you take the position that Christ came to save us from the lake of fire and not the curse of the law?

Let's keep in mind that Christ took our curse. Did Christ burn in the lake of fire?

No! Then that's not the curse!!!

Look at Gal 3:10..."Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." ....13 Christ redeemed (saved) us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

What happened to Christ on the cross (tree)?

Answer: 6 About the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, ""Eloi, Eloi," "lama" "sabachthani?""--which means, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"

Christ, as the Son of Man, was forsaken of God. That's the curse of the law!!!

Let's look at this in more detail:

Luke 22:39 Jesus went out as usual to the Mount of Olives, and his disciples followed him.... 41 He withdrew about a stone's throw beyond them, knelt down and prayed, 42 "Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done."

What's the cup? Read on:

... verse 53 "Every day I was with you in the temple courts, and you did not lay a hand on me. But this is your hour--when darkness reigns."

So the cup was God pulling back....On the cross God abandoned Christ.

Keep in mind that Christ, as the Son of Man, was depending of His Father for the resurrection. When God withdrew the hope of the resurrection went too! That's the 2nd death.

So the 2nd death is the curse of the law, which results in God's abandonment of you. His protection is gone and all you have is death without a resurrection.

In the end, those who have persistently and ultimately rejected the grace of God will remain fixed under law. To be under law is to take the curse. Those who remain under law God will abandoned because these have made their choice.

When God abandons them His protection goes with Him. When that happens the earth will come apart. Hence the lake of fire will culminate in the 2nd death.

 

[Setyoufree]

Hence the lake of fire will culminate in the 2nd death.

The lake of fire is the mechanism that causes the 2nd death just like the cross was the mechanism that caused Christ's death. But the reason these things happen is because of "the curse of the law".

Christ clearly took our curse, though He was without sin.

The unbeliever remains under law. If he persistently & ultimately remains under the law God will have no choice but to abandon him in the end of days. That's the curse.

Those who reject Christ reject life. Those who reject Christ remain under law. They remain under law because they refuse to see themselves as sinners. Hence, they must be righteous!

Everyone who is lost, in the end, will be lost because of self-righteousness. They see themselves as good people. They are nothing more than modern day Pharisees....

 

[pehkay]

Sin has no authority. The law has authority.

1 Cor 15:26 "The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law"

Sin, in order to put you to death, gets its power (permission, authority) from the law.

Ooo .. never realized that you replied my post. Actually it was from Romans 5:21 and 6:12, which show that, sin reigns in death. Sin, like every other king, needs an authority in order to reign. The authority of sin is death. Sin has authority to reign as a king in death. Romans 5:21 and 6:12 show sin reigning as a king.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Let's explore what it means "to be saved". In order to be saved you must be delivered from something. What is that something???

In Romans 10:9 Paul states that "If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from death, you will be saved"....

Again, saved from what?

Question to you. Based on your reasoning, would we need to be saved if the law was never given?

 

[Clare73]

Let's explore what it means "to be saved". In order to be saved you must be delivered from something. What is that something???

In Romans 10:9 Paul states that "If you confess that Jesus is Lord and believe that God raised him from death, you will be saved"....

Again, saved from what?

Saved from the wrath/justice of God on your sin at the final judgment. (Ro 5:9)

 

[Setyoufree]

Question to you. Based on your reasoning, would we need to be saved if the law was never given?

Yes:

Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law"

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Yes:

Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law"

So would you say Adam and Eve, Noah, Abrahama sinned apart from the law and if so how would they be saved?

 

[Cribstyl]

Yes:

Romans 2:12 "All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law"

Thanks for esposing how SDA teach a false doctrine; claiming that salvation is based on being; under a law that will judge you at the end of time.

Your version (above) of Romans 2:12 is twisted, partial, isolated and taken out of context.
The text should read;
Rom2:12 For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law.

Everyone who reads Rom2:9-12 will know that Paul is addressing two peoples, Jews and Gentiles

This text is clearly teaching; People (Gentiles) who sinned and never had the law will be judged for sin and not by the law, and People (Jews) who sinned and had the law will be judged by the law.

Here is how Paul is addressing his audience...
Rom 2:9
Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10
But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11
For there is no respect of persons with God.




Rather than admit error they will ask questions forcing logical reasoning about the need for law. Truth is, they will steer some from the word of God. We're suppose to forget their deceptive techniques.
The gospel teaches that If God's promise was dependent on the law, then God's promise is worthless. You have to be brain-dead not to understand the scriptures saying that the law came 430yrs after the promise.

 

[JohnRabbit]

So the law doesn't make us better...in fact it makes things worse.

Psalms 1:1-2(NKJV)
1 Blessed is the man Who walks not in the counsel of the ungodly, Nor stands in the path of sinners, Nor sits in the seat of the scornful;
2 But his delight is in the law of the Lord, And in His law he meditates day and night.

the man who walks after God, his delight is in the law!
yeah, can't have that delighting in the law stuff, that makes things worse, i see what you say now!

and..

Jeremiah 31:33(NKJV)
33But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

since the law makes things worse, then it makes sense that God would want to put that in our hearts and mind.
yeah, i see what you're saying - i get it!

and...

Matthew 23:23(NKJV)
23“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

the "weightier" matters of the law, justice and mercy and faith, makes things worse.

yeah, i see what you're saying - i get it!

and...

Romans 7:12(NKJV)
12Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

a no-brainer , obviously makes things worse!

yeah, i see what you're saying - i get it!

Romans 13:8-10(NKJV)
8Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law.
9For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not bear false witness,” “You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
10Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

love is the fulfillment of the law.

i can see how that increases the trespasses. i think i'll go out and increase the trespass even more by going out and loving today.

yeah, i see what you're saying - i get it!

 

[Setyoufree]

So would you say Adam and Eve, Noah, Abrahama sinned apart from the law and if so how would they be saved?

Apart from law means that one does not know of the law.....That is, one is ignorant of the law.

 

[Setyoufree]

Thanks for esposing how SDA teach a false doctrine; claiming that salvation is based on being; under a law that will judge you at the end of time.

I would have to say that you are massively confused! I said no such thing...

Everyone who reads Rom2:9-12 will know that Paul is addressing two peoples, Jews and Gentiles

Yes, true....

This text is clearly teaching; People (Gentiles) who sinned and never had the law will be judged for sin and not by the law, and People (Jews) who sinned and had the law will be judged by the law.

No, not really....

Read verse 13:" For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obeyhttp://www.biblestudytools.com/romans/2.html#cr-descriptionAnchor-21 the law who will be declared righteous"

It doesn't matter if you are a Jew or a Gentile the law of God demands a righteous life from both Jew & Gentile. Hence if one is to be justified by the law one must obey the law.

... You have to be brain-dead not to understand the scriptures saying that the law came 430yrs after the promise.

Yes, the law was officially posted some 430 years after God promised Abraham salvation by faith in the coming Messiah. Those who have not accepted Christ remain under law. It doesn't matter if you are a Jew or Gentile.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Apart from law means that one does not know of the law.....That is, one is ignorant of the law.

So then Adam and eve would qualify for being apart from the law right. I'm trying to follow your reasoning. While I see the problem as sin, you seem to see the problem as the law. But in the case of Adam and Eve, and everyone before the time of Moses, they need salvation too and it was because of sin and they did not have any written laws.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Adam & Eve were made in God's likeness & image. They were immortal...and they perfectly reflected God's agape love.

After Adam & Eve fell they had children. We are fallen children and we are not in God's image.

1 John 4
12No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.


1 John 4
20Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.


Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary

4:7-13 The Spirit of God is the Spirit of love. He that does not love the image of God in his people, has no saving knowledge of God.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Setyoufree. Jesus tells us in Luke 10: 25-28: A certain Lawyer asked Jesus: " Master what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus asked him:
"What is written in the law?" The Lawyer answered: " thou shalt love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." Jesus answered him:
" thou hast answered right, DO THIS AND THOU SHALT LIVE."
In Matthew 22: 35-40: Jesus told a Lawyer: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy might. The second is like it: Love thy neighbour as thyself." Then Jesus
stated this fact: " On these two Commandments hang all the Law and the PROPHETS." Jesus tells us in no uncertain words: Those two Commandments:
Love God with all our beings and love our neighbour as we love ourselves, is what God wants from us. Do this and we shall live.
I say this with love, Setyoufree. Greetings from Emmy your sister in Christ.

 

[Setyoufree]

So then Adam and eve would qualify for being apart from the law right.

They didn't know rules...like Ten brief commandments....The law written on stone was future. However, they knew of God's love because they were made in the likeness & image of God. They only had "agape" love in their hearts & minds.

So yes, they only knew of God's love, which according to Paul is the fulfillment of His law. See Romans chapter 13.

Adam & Eve knew nothing of sin because it was foreign to them. Yes they both succumbed to sin. How? That answer we do not know this side of eternity. How could two sinless being, in the image of God, sin? That will remain a mystery.

 

[Setyoufree]

.... God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.

That doesn't disprove that we are not in God's image. It merely show that we grow in grace and perfection will be realized at the 2nd coming when this vile body will be transformed into a glorious, sinless body....Our minds, through sanctification, are being transformed. Our minds & hearts are becoming more like His, but we aren't fully in His image.

 

[Setyoufree]

Dear Setyoufree. Jesus tells us in Luke 10: 25-28: A certain Lawyer asked Jesus: " Master what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" Jesus asked him:

This is being discussed on the thread named "Matthew chapter 19"

 

[Cribstyl]

They didn't know rules...like Ten brief commandments....The law written on stone was future.

They did know a rule...... "don't eat of that tree or you will surely die". It was actually a commandment rather than a law. This scripture below explains; that when Adam sinned, it was when death was passed down to all men.
Rom 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
The wisdom given in this text above teaches us that; God established "the wages of sin is death" with Adam.
What Paul teaches in the next 2verses is a knockout punch to SDA theology, that sin is transgression of the law. Their claim is; if there is no law there is no sin.
Paul explains that sin was in the world before the law.(so there was sin before law) Paul gives us a timeline from Adam to Moses, that God judged sin with death not law.Rom 5:13 (proving no law before Moses)
(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Paul is actually giving us facts as written from Genesis and Exodus.

However, they knew of God's love because they were made in the likeness & image of God. They only had "agape" love in their hearts & minds.

So yes, they only knew of God's love, which according to Paul is the fulfillment of His law. See Romans chapter 13.

Adam & Eve knew nothing of sin because it was foreign to them. Yes they both succumbed to sin. How? That answer we do not know this side of eternity. How could two sinless being, in the image of God, sin? That will remain a mystery.

Mystery indeed, your teaching seems as a bridge to nowhere.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

They didn't know rules...like Ten brief commandments....The law written on stone was future. However, they knew of God's love because they were made in the likeness & image of God. They only had "agape" love in their hearts & minds.

So yes, they only knew of God's love, which according to Paul is the fulfillment of His law. See Romans chapter 13.

Adam & Eve knew nothing of sin because it was foreign to them. Yes they both succumbed to sin. How? That answer we do not know this side of eternity. How could two sinless being, in the image of God, sin? That will remain a mystery.

The above poster said it. They knew a singular law and they broke it. They sinned because they disobeyed God. Once God says to do or not do something and you disobey it is sin.

And we know how they succumbed to sin. In your entire analysis you are misplacing emphasis on the law given during the time of Moses, and you are missing a key player. The one who tempted Adam and Eve in the garden is Satan. He is the one who deceived them into thinking God was unjust and keeping something for them that was for their good. He also convinced them that God was a liar and they would not die. Therefore, they disobeyed and sinned against God. That is how sin came into the human race.

Apart from that the principles of God's law were there from the beginning even before it was written on stone. So when Cain killed Abel it was sin. Cain did not need the commandment written on stone for him to know he was not supposed to kill Abel. See once you have love for God and fellow men you would fulfill the law, murder goes against love so Cain knew he was not to do that. Everyone who sinned before the written law was given needs salvation and grace the same as those who sinned after. Therefore the written law is not the problem. Sin is the problem.