saved by grace or by works

[msortwell]

Salvalation has ALWAYS been BY grace, THROUGH faith. Grace is God's favor (never deserved, simply bestowed). Faith is assurance (the assurance that what God declares is true, it is God-given). Specifically, God promised that He WILL, or He HAS provided a redeemer. The redeemer was to be (and now has been shown to be) the promised Seed of the Woman in Genesis 3, the Promised Seed of Abraham (Genesis, 12, 15, 17, and 22; Galatians 3), the Promised righteous Seed (son) of David (2 Sam 7), and now the very Son of God. The Mosaic covenant had its roll, but it was not salvific in any direct sense. It served PRIMARILY in preparing God's people to understand how and what the promised Seed - Messiah, the Son of David, the Son of Abraham, the Son of God would accomplish. To claim salvation was EVER by means of works is heresy, one that declares that Jesus need never have died.

 

[Doug Brents]

Exactly, we are saved by grace (the gift of God) THROUGH faith. But faith is not a purely mental exercise. Faith REQUIRES action. Action is the soul of faith. Action completes, it makes perfect, our faith. Without action there is only the demonic level of non-saving belief.

So in answer to the OP, we are saved by grace. But to receive grace, must have (and exhibit) faith. We must DO the things that God has said lead to the reception of His grace: Believe that He is the Christ/Messiah and is the Son (equal) of God; Repent of our sins and begin living our lives for Him; Confess His name as Lord of our life; and be baptized (in water) into Him (not just in His name, but into Him, I to His Body, into His ministry, into Union with Him).

PS: I can and will provide Biblical reference that says everything I just said if asked.

 

[pescador]

Exactly, we are saved by grace (the gift of God) THROUGH faith. But faith is not a purely mental exercise. Faith REQUIRES action. Action is the soul of faith. Action completes, it makes perfect, our faith. Without action there is only the demonic level of non-saving belief.

So in answer to the OP, we are saved by grace. But to receive grace, must have (and exhibit) faith. We must DO the things that God has said lead to the reception of His grace: Believe that He is the Christ/Messiah and is the Son (equal) of God; Repent of our sins and begin living our lives for Him; Confess His name as Lord of our life; and be baptized (in water) into Him (not just in His name, but into Him, I to His Body, into His ministry, into Union with Him).

PS: I can and will provide Biblical reference that says everything I just said if asked.

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." NET

I don't see any works requirement. On the contrary, salvation is a gift and it is not from works.

Should I believe you or the Bible?

 

[msortwell]

PS: I can and will provide Biblical reference that says everything I just said if asked.

You may try . . . but you will not be successful. Please try to avoid text that proclaims that good works (although neither perfect nor meritorious works) must and surely will flow out of saving faith. Important biblical truth, but not text that supports your assertion.
Good works are a necessary consequence of saving faith, but not a prerequisite for justification. The righteousness that wins our salvatation is the righteousness of Christ.

 

[Doug Brents]

Ephesians 2:8-9, "For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." NET

I don't see any works requirement. On the contrary, salvation is a gift and it is not from works.

Should I believe you or the Bible?

Believe Scripture, and I am saying what Scripture says. See my post below for references.

 

[pescador]

Believe Scripture, and I am saying what Scripture says. See my post below for references.

You wrote "We must DO the things that God has said lead to the reception of His grace: Believe that He is the Christ/Messiah and is the Son (equal) of God; Repent of our sins and begin living our lives for Him; Confess His name as Lord of our life; and be baptized (in water) into Him (not just in His name, but into Him, I to His Body, into His ministry, into Union with Him)."

Scripture doesn't say that. Instead it says, " For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 NET

It is a gift of God. It is not earned. Repentance doesn't earn it; confession doesn't earn it; baptism doesn't earn it. We don't have to do anything.

God can't be bribed or coerced by "works".

 

[Doug Brents]

You may try . . . but you will not be successful. Please try to avoid text that proclaims that good works (although neither perfect nor meritorious works) must and surely will flow out of saving faith. Important biblical truth, but not text that supports your assertion.
Good works are a necessary consequence of saving faith, but not a prerequisite for justification. The righteousness that wins our salvatation is the righteousness of Christ.

I absolutely agree that it is Christ, and Christ alone, who won our salvation through His self-sacrifice.

However, as pointed out, He set conditions upon our reception of the benefit of that sacrifice.
James 2 stipulates that without action, faith is dead, lifeless, imperfect, and useless.
Mark 16:16 stipulates that only those who believe the Gospel message and are baptized will be saved.
Acts 2:38 stipulates that when you believe, you must repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sin.
Acts 22:16 demonstrates that even after one has believed, he is still in sin until they are washed away in baptism.
Rom 10:9-10 stipulates that we must believe and confess Jesus as Lord.
Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14 both explain that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection.
Eph 5:25-27 says that it is through the washing of water by the Word (baptism in water and the Holy Spirit’s action) that we, the Church, are made pure, spotless, and holy.
1 Pet 3:21 says that just as Noah and the other seven in the Ark were saved through the Flood, so too we are now saved through the water of baptism.
Gal 3:27 says that we are baptized, not just in (Christ’s name), but INTO Christ. In baptism we put Him on and become heirs with Him of eternal life.

These are all actions that Scripture says “lead to” salvation. These are not actions that “flow from” salvation. There are many “good works” that flow from salvation, there can be no dispute about that. But repentance, confession of Jesus’ name as our Lord, and baptism into Jesus are all commanded as actions that lead to salvation.

 

[Doug Brents]

You wrote "We must DO the things that God has said lead to the reception of His grace: Believe that He is the Christ/Messiah and is the Son (equal) of God; Repent of our sins and begin living our lives for Him; Confess His name as Lord of our life; and be baptized (in water) into Him (not just in His name, but into Him, I to His Body, into His ministry, into Union with Him)."

Scripture doesn't say that. Instead it says, " For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." Ephesians 2:8-9 NET

It is a gift of God. It is not earned. Repentance doesn't earn it; confession doesn't earn it; baptism doesn't earn it. We don't have to do anything.

God can't be bribed or coerced by "works".

I didn’t say those actions “earn” salvation. They are not bribes or attempts at coercion toward God.

They complete our faith. And it takes the living, complete, perfect faith that is the conduit through which God’s grace reaches us.

Let me ask you a simple question: Does it require a physical action to say something with your mouth?
Of course it does. Speaking with the mouth (or hands for the mute) is a physical action.
And Rom 10:9-10 says that physical action “leads to” salvation.
That fact alone invalidates the idea that Eph 2:8-9 can be saying that there is no physical action necessary for man to receive salvation.

 

[msortwell]

I absolutely agree that it is Christ, and Christ alone, who won our salvation through His self-sacrifice.

However, as pointed out, He set conditions upon our reception of the benefit of that sacrifice.

You cannot have it both ways. Either Jesus' giving of His life won our salvation or it did not. I believe you are confusing the necessary outcome/consequence of saving faith with prerequisites for getting saved.

 

[pescador]

I absolutely agree that it is Christ, and Christ alone, who won our salvation through His self-sacrifice.

However, as pointed out, He set conditions upon our reception of the benefit of that sacrifice.
James 2 stipulates that without action, faith is dead, lifeless, imperfect, and useless.
Mark 16:16 stipulates that only those who believe the Gospel message and are baptized will be saved.
Acts 2:38 stipulates that when you believe, you must repent and be baptized in order to receive forgiveness of sin.
Acts 22:16 demonstrates that even after one has believed, he is still in sin until they are washed away in baptism.
Rom 10:9-10 stipulates that we must believe and confess Jesus as Lord.
Rom 6:1-4 and Col 2:11-14 both explain that it is during baptism that the Holy Spirit cuts our sin from us and unites us with Christ’s death and resurrection.
Eph 5:25-27 says that it is through the washing of water by the Word (baptism in water and the Holy Spirit’s action) that we, the Church, are made pure, spotless, and holy.
1 Pet 3:21 says that just as Noah and the other seven in the Ark were saved through the Flood, so too we are now saved through the water of baptism.
Gal 3:27 says that we are baptized, not just in (Christ’s name), but INTO Christ. In baptism we put Him on and become heirs with Him of eternal life.

These are all actions that Scripture says “lead to” salvation. These are not actions that “flow from” salvation. There are many “good works” that flow from salvation, there can be no dispute about that. But repentance, confession of Jesus’ name as our Lord, and baptism into Jesus are all commanded as actions that lead to salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9,"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast." That is very clear to me, why not to you?

It is the gift of God. It isn't earned by any actions that one performs.

Is there something about God giving the gift of salvation that you don't understand?

 

[Doug Brents]

You cannot have it both ways. Either Jesus' giving of His life won our salvation or it did not. I believe you are confusing the necessary outcome/consequence of saving faith with prerequisites for getting saved.

Did God multiply the widow’s oil? Or did her pouring the oil cause it to multiply?
Did God cause the walls of Jericho to fall? Or did the Israelites marching around them cause them to fall?
Did God cure Naaman’s leprosy? Or did him dipping in the river cure it?
Obviously the answer to all of them is; God alone did it.
But none of them would have happened without the faith (belief in action) of the people involved.
There are always conditions placed upon the reception of God’s blessings. Salvation from sin is no different.

Now, you tell me; what does Acts 2:38 say is REQUIRED for one to receive forgiveness of sin?
What does Mark 16:16 say is REQUIRED for one to be saved?
What does Acts 3:19 say is REQUIRED for one’s sins to be blotted out (forgiven)?
What does Rom 10:9-10 say is REQUIRED for salvation and righteousness?

 

[Doug Brents]

Is there something about God giving the gift of salvation that you don't understand?

I understand gift giving pretty well.

Let me ask you, if a gift is sitting on a table wrapped up in beautiful paper and ribbons with your name on it, do you have use of it?
No.
If you reach out and take it and unwrap it, did you earn it?
No.
But you had to physically do something to receive it.

If I buy you a car and tell you that it is at a dealership in your town with your name on it, does going to the dealership to pick it up earn the car?
No.
But if you don’t go to the dealership, do you have the benefit of the car?
No.
This is the same kind of condition that Christ put on salvation.
Repent - turn from seeking sinful pleasure and delight ourselves in following Him (Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19)
Confess His name - name Him Lord of our life and accept His will in place of our own will (Rom 10:9-10)
Baptism - Scripture says this is what puts us INTO Christ, unites us with His death and resurrection, adds us the the Church, and this is the point at which we are saved. (Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, 1 Pet 3:21, Eph 5:25-27, Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4)

 

[msortwell]

Now, you tell me; what does Acts 2:38 say is REQUIRED for one to receive forgiveness of sin?
What does Mark 16:16 say is REQUIRED for one to be saved?
What does Acts 3:19 say is REQUIRED for one’s sins to be blotted out (forgiven)?
What does Rom 10:9-10 say is REQUIRED for salvation and righteousness?

Ummmm . . . Four different quotes, three different lists, perhaps you should consider again what each is teaching. To be reconciled requires faith and being baptized, faith and a public profession, faith plus being baptized and public profession, or is it simply to repent (i.e., to think again - go from unbelief to belief, as Acts 3:19 seems to say).
Acts 3:19, Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, NKJV
Justification has a very narrow meaning - to be seen as/to be declared righteous). To be saved has broad meaning that CAN refer to justification, but can also refer to sanctification.

But back to your list of lists . . . Why do you suppose Romans 10:9-10 makes not mention of being baptized if baptism is necessary for justificaton? Similarly, why would Acts 3:38 and Mark 16:16 make no mention of a public profession? If these are intended to be statements of what is required for a sinner to be reconciled to God they should match.

Romans 10:9-10, which you directed our attention to is very helpful . . .

Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead [if you do both], you will be saved [broad meaning - justification + sanctification]. 10 For with the heart one believes [i.e., has faith] unto righteousness [justified - declared righteous by God], and with the mouth confession is made [action is taken, a work is done] unto salvation [growing in godliness - an early manifestation of a changed heart].NKJV

Blessings

 

[Doug Brents]

Ummmm . . . Four different quotes, three different lists, perhaps you should consider again what each is teaching. To be reconciled requires faith and being baptized, faith and a public profession, faith plus being baptized and public profession, or is it simply to repent (i.e., to think again - go from unbelief to belief, as Acts 3:19 seems to say).
Acts 3:19, Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, NKJV
Justification has a very narrow meaning - to be seen as/to be declared righteous). To be saved has broad meaning that CAN refer to justification, but can also refer to sanctification.

But back to your list of lists . . . Why do you suppose Romans 10:9-10 makes not mention of being baptized if baptism is necessary for justificaton? Similarly, why would Acts 3:38 and Mark 16:16 make no mention of a public profession? If these are intended to be statements of what is required for a sinner to be reconciled to God they should match.

Romans 10:9-10, which you directed our attention to is very helpful . . .

Romans 10:9-10
9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead [if you do both], you will be saved [broad meaning - justification + sanctification]. 10 For with the heart one believes [i.e., has faith] unto righteousness [justified - declared righteous by God], and with the mouth confession is made [action is taken, a work is done] unto salvation [growing in godliness - an early manifestation of a changed heart].NKJV

Blessings

Yes, four quotes of Scripture, three lists of things required to receive salvation, One Author.

There is only one author of Scripture: the Holy Spirit. All of those statements come directly from God. None of them are frivolous, extraneous, or ignorable. They are all commandments to everyone living in the New Testament era. if any of them are left out or ignored, then salvation is missed.

We are not condemned because we failed to get baptized. We are condemned already because we have sinned. Baptism, according to Scripture (Col 2:11-14, Rom 6:1-4, 1 Pet 3:21), is the point at which we are united with Christ in His death and resurrection, our sins are forgiven and washed away, and we become a new creature.

Yes, Rom 10:9-10 mentions only belief and confession, but that is similar to Mark only mentioning that "THE KING OF THE JEWS" was on the charge over Jesus' head on the cross. The charge said much more, and it was in three languages (we find out in other passages), and similarly, we find more requirements for salvation in other passages (as cited above).

 

[Guojing]

Did God multiply the widow’s oil? Or did her pouring the oil cause it to multiply?
Did God cause the walls of Jericho to fall? Or did the Israelites marching around them cause them to fall?
Did God cure Naaman’s leprosy? Or did him dipping in the river cure it?
Obviously the answer to all of them is; God alone did it.
But none of them would have happened without the faith (belief in action) of the people involved.
There are always conditions placed upon the reception of God’s blessings. Salvation from sin is no different.

Now, you tell me; what does Acts 2:38 say is REQUIRED for one to receive forgiveness of sin?
What does Mark 16:16 say is REQUIRED for one to be saved?
What does Acts 3:19 say is REQUIRED for one’s sins to be blotted out (forgiven)?
What does Rom 10:9-10 say is REQUIRED for salvation and righteousness?

Think of the bible as being written to

• Different audience
• Different periods of time.

We are instructed to rightly divide the word of truth, the Greek words means make a "straight cut".

 

[msortwell]

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life . . . Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.” ESV.

Believe in the only begotten Son - Eternal life.

Believe not - Condemnation

 

[msortwell]

Phil 3:8-9
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith.


From Jamieson, Fausset & Brown - Commentary on Phil 3:9

be found in him--"be found" at His coming again, living spiritually "in Him" as the element of my life. Once lost, I have been "found," and I hope to be perfectly "found" by Him ( Luk 15:8 ).
own righteousness. . . of the law-- ( Phl 3:6 Rom 10:3, 5 ). "Of," that is, from.
righteousness. . . of God by faith--Greek, "which is from God (resting) uponfaith." Paul was transported from legal bondage into Christian freedom at once, and without any gradual transition. Hence, the bands of Pharisaism were loosed instantaneously; and opposition to Pharisaic Judaism took the place of opposition to the Gospel. Thus God's providence fitly prepared him for the work of overthrowing all idea of legal justification. "The righteousness of faith," in Paul's sense, is the righteousness or perfect holiness of Christ appropriated by faith, as the objective ground of confidence for the believer, and also as a new subjectiveprinciple of life. Hence it includes the essence of a new disposition, and may easily pass into the idea of sanctification, though the two ideas are originally distinct. It is not any arbitrary act of God, as if he treated as sinless a man persisting in sin, simply because he believes in Christ; but the objective on the part of God corresponds to the subjective on the part of man, namely, faith. The realization of the archetype of holiness through Christ contains the pledge that this shall be realized in all who are one with Him by faith, and are become the organs of His Spirit. Its germ is imparted to them in believing although the fruit of a life perfectly conformed to the Redeemer, can only be gradually developed in this life [NEANDER].

 

[Doug Brents]

Think of the bible as being written to

• Different audience
• Different periods of time.

We are instructed to rightly divide the word of truth, the Greek words means make a "straight cut".

Absolutely. The writer's style of writing, the intended audience, the additional materials available to the intended audience (other Apostles' writing, OT Scriptures, etc.) etc. all need to be taken into account.

But even more important is the words themselves. When there is a clear, unambiguous statement ("He who believes and is baptized will be saved" as an example), it supports, modifies, and expands upon the more basic statements (like "whoever believes in Him should not perish"). Why? Because there is no contradiction in Scripture. And if there is no contradiction, then simple belief (mental assent) is not ALL that is required. The other passages that state something other than belief (Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Rom 10:9-10, etc.) still apply, are not to be ignored or explained away, and MUST be included in our doctrine on salvation.

 

[Guojing]

Absolutely. The writer's style of writing, the intended audience, the additional materials available to the intended audience (other Apostles' writing, OT Scriptures, etc.) etc. all need to be taken into account.

But even more important is the words themselves. When there is a clear, unambiguous statement ("He who believes and is baptized will be saved" as an example), it supports, modifies, and expands upon the more basic statements (like "whoever believes in Him should not perish"). Why? Because there is no contradiction in Scripture. And if there is no contradiction, then simple belief (mental assent) is not ALL that is required. The other passages that state something other than belief (Acts 2:38, Acts 3:19, Rom 10:9-10, etc.) still apply, are not to be ignored or explained away, and MUST be included in our doctrine on salvation.

So you do agree with my 2 points.

So now, following the same 2 points, what if you found out that Mark 16:16 is not written as instructions to

• You
• for this period of time?

 

[msortwell]

So you do agree with my 2 points.

So now, following the same 2 points, what if you found out that Mark 16:16 is not written as instructions to

• You
• for this period of time?

If he were to find this out (as you call it) he would be entering into some form of hyperdispensationalism and rejecting much of what God’s would offers to his people.

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.” ESV 3:28-29

Writing to Timothy, referring to only the OT , Paul said

2 Tim 3:16, All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.