saved by grace or by works

[Doug Brents]

The best reason for not building an Ark like Noah is, God only told Noah to build an Ark. But He did say in James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Really, the best reason for not building an Ark today is that God promised there would never again be a need for one. He promised never again to flood the entire Earth. And, since we can trust His promises, we know there will never again be a need for an Ark.

 

[Ligurian]

But after the Tribulation, if a gentile still wants to be saved, he better follow what James is saying.

Matthew 24:14-15 begs to differ with your Great Tribulation timing, since the Gospel of the Kingdom will be preached in all the world BEFORE the temptation/testing of the GT, which begins when the abomination stands up at Jerusalem. It's the time of Jacob's Trouble. So... if you even wait UNTIL the Great Tribulation BEGINS, to START keeping His Commandments, you'll be Matthew 25:8... (and Laodicea?). Because the way to get this oil is in John 14:15-17. (Good luck cramming for THAT final!)

I believe that this means the two-martyrs will teach the Gospel of the Kingdom spoken to the 12 Disciples--> to the OTHER Lost Sheep of the House of Israel (John 10:16, John 17:20). When these two-witnesses are killed--> Revelation 10:7--> the seventh trumpet, Revelation 11:15.

Isaiah 26:16-21 Lord, in affliction I remembered thee; Thy chastening was to us with small affliction.[17] And as a woman in travail draws nigh to be delivered and cries out in her pain, so have we been to Thy beloved.[18] We have conceived, O Lord, because of Thy fear, and have been in pain and have brought forth the breath of Thy salvation, which we have wrought upon the earth: we shall not fall, but all that dwell upon the land shall fall.[19] The dead shall rise, and they that are in the tombs shall be raised, and they that are in the earth shall rejoice: for the dew from thee is healing to them: but the land of the ungodly shall perish.[20] Go, My people, enter into thy closets, shut thy door, hide thyself for a little season, until the anger of the Lord have passed away.[21] For, behold, the Lord is bringing wrath from His holy place upon the dwellers on the earth: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall not cover her slain.LXX (Revelation 11:13 Thy fear, Revelation 6:9 + Revelation 15:2-3 wrought, Revelation 12:6 thy closets)
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Revelation 11:12-13 And they heard a great voice from Heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to Heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.[13] And the same hour was there a great Earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the Earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted and gave glory to the God of Heaven.
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Isaiah 66:6-8 A voice of a cry from out of [the] city; a voice from out of [the] temple, [the] voice of [the] Lord recompencing a recompense to the adversaries.[7] Before her travailing to give birth, before [the] coming of the misery of the pangs, she fled and gave birth to a male.[8] Who heard such? and who has seen thus? [Has] [the] earth travailed in one day? or even a nation given birth at once, and Sion travailed and gave birth to her children?ABP (Deuteronomy 18:18-19, John 12:48-50)
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Revelation 12:1-6 And there appeared a great wonder in Heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:[2] And she being with child cried, travailing in birth and pained to be delivered.[3] And there appeared another wonder in Heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.[4] And his tail drew the third part of the stars of Heaven, and did cast them to the Earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.[5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne.[6] And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. (Revelation 2:26-28 rod of iron, Revelation 11:12 caught up to God, Isaiah 26:20, wilderness)
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People who think they don't need to know prophecy are kidding themselves.

 

[Ligurian]

The best reason for not building an Ark like Noah is, God only told Noah to build an Ark. But He did say in James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

Just lusting after a woman means you need to pluck out your eye to keep yourself from hell fire, because you've already committed adultery with her... THIS is Kingdom Law, Matthew 5:27-30. Both murder and adultery mean death... and so does calling your brother a fool, Matthew 5:21-24. This is what it means to have the Law written on your heart... because Hearts are Judged in the Kingdom.

 

[Guojing]

SOME of the Pauline Epistles are written TO the broader church. But many, including the salutations I quoted are LITERALLY written TO a SPECIFIC church in a SPECIFIC place, at a SPECIFIC time. These epistles, you rightly understand to have application to the church today, even though they were written TO a different people at a different time - just like James. Your hermeneutical approach is arbitrary.

But James was very specific on who he was writing to, the 12 tribes scattered abroad.

If you want to think you are part of the 12 tribes, you have to at least be clear in your head "which tribe do you belong to"?

 

[Guojing]

The best reason for not building an Ark like Noah is, God only told Noah to build an Ark. But He did say in James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

You should think about James 1:1, the intended audience stated, before you interpret who belongs to the "whoever".

For example, if you are not an American who happens to pick up the Declaration of Independence by George Washington et al, and you come across a "whoever", would you consider that as a instruction directed to you as well?

 

[iwbswiaihl]

You should think about James 1:1, the intended audience stated, before you interpret who belongs to the "whoever".

For example, if you are not an American who happens to pick up the Declaration of Independence by George Washington et al, and you come across a "whoever", would you consider that as a instruction directed to you as well?

James is not talking about a government's law but the law of God by which no one is ever declared to be righteous, surely you know more about scripture than to think this verse was applying to anything else. Let's at least hope so, but to be honest, some of your replies leave doubt when you question whether the scripture are actually true by your responses. That is why we are taught to study to show ourselves approved unto God. And what else could whosoever mean than whosoever? Just google it!

 

[Guojing]

James is not talking about a government's law but the law of God by which no one is ever declared to be righteous, surely you know more about scripture than to think this verse was applying to anything else. Let's at least hope so, but to be honest, some of your replies leave doubt when you question whether the scripture are actually true by your responses. That is why we are taught to study to show ourselves approved unto God. And what else could whosoever mean than whosoever? Just google it!

If you want to know whether you in the Body of Christ is under the Law, as what James explained to the 12 tribes, it will be better if you stick to Romans to Philemon.

For example Romans 6:14: "For sin is not to have any power over you, since you are not under the law but under grace."

 

[msortwell]

But James was very specific on who he was writing to, the 12 tribes scattered abroad.

If you want to think you are part of the 12 tribes, you have to at least be clear in your head "which tribe do you belong to"?

James WAS specific. As was Paul when he SPCIFICALLY stated that he was writing to the church in Rome, in Galatia, in Ephesus, and in Corinth ( the 2nd time). Do you believe yourself to be a resident or member of any of those churches? No, neither do I.

 

[Guojing]

James WAS specific. As was Paul when he SPCIFICALLY stated that he was writing to the church in Rome, in Galatia, in Ephesus, and in Corinth ( the 2nd time). Do you believe yourself to be a resident or member of any of those churches? No, neither do I.

As I said to you already, I consider myself a gentile in the Body of Christ.

Since Paul declares himself an apostle to the gentiles, and he is speaking to all gentiles in Romans 11:13, I take his instructions as directed to me.

James, on the other hand, never claimed to be an apostle to the gentiles/uncircumcision. The agreement he made with Paul in Galatians 2:7-9 made it, however, very clear who he is ministering to.

 

[msortwell]

As I said to you already, I consider myself a gentile in the Body of Christ.

Since Paul declares himself an apostle to the gentiles, and he is speaking to all gentiles in Romans 11:13, I take his instructions as directed to me.

James, on the other hand, never claimed to be an apostle to the gentiles/uncircumcision. The agreement he made with Paul in Galatians 2:7-9 made it, however, very clear who he is ministering to.

So . . . Because Paul described himself as the Apostle to the gentiles, you believe every letter he ever wrote is to you - even though the letters were SPECIFICALLY written TO a different recipient? To be clear, I believe his letters apply to us. But your basis for setting James aside is equally valid for Paul’s letters. Paul being the Apostle to the gentiles does not, in-and-of-itself mean that everything he ever wrote applies to all gentiles.

 

[iwbswiaihl]

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. Everyone in the body of Christ is to obey all the scriptures as stated in the scriptures. This would naturally include ALL SCRIPTURE. Faith without works is a dead faith and profits nothing. No one was ever saved by their limited obedience to the law just as it says in James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

 

[Ligurian]

But James was very specific on who he was writing to, the 12 tribes scattered abroad.

If you want to think you are part of the 12 tribes, you have to at least be clear in your head "which tribe do you belong to"?

If you have your family history all the way back to 700 B.C., congratulations... but I don't think there are very many people in that boat with you.

 

[Ligurian]

James WAS specific. As was Paul when he SPCIFICALLY stated that he was writing to the church in Rome, in Galatia, in Ephesus, and in Corinth ( the 2nd time). Do you believe yourself to be a resident or member of any of those churches? No, neither do I.

1 Peter 1 says he was writing to Galatia... so which church in Galatia did the gentiles belong to?

 

[Ligurian]

As I said to you already, I consider myself a gentile in the Body of Christ.

Since Paul declares himself an apostle to the gentiles, and he is speaking to all gentiles in Romans 11:13, I take his instructions as directed to me.

James, on the other hand, never claimed to be an apostle to the gentiles/uncircumcision. The agreement he made with Paul in Galatians 2:7-9 made it, however, very clear who he is ministering to.

Which means that the James who wrote the letter isn't the "apostle James the Lord's brother" that Paul met with, Galatians 1:19, obviously in Jerusalem... or he's speaking with a forked-tongue.

 

[Ligurian]

2 Tim 3:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. Everyone in the body of Christ is to obey all the scriptures as stated in the scriptures.

Circular argument. Which begs the question: what did Paul consider to be scripture? Why was church canon changed time and time again if what's called scripture was set in stone?

 

[Ligurian]

So . . . Because Paul described himself as the Apostle to the gentiles, you believe every letter he ever wrote is to you - even though the letters were SPECIFICALLY written TO a different recipient? To be clear, I believe his letters apply to us. But your basis for setting James aside is equally valid for Paul’s letters. Paul being the Apostle to the gentiles does not, in-and-of-itself mean that everything he ever wrote applies to all gentiles.

So then... what is the real definition of "gentiles"? From the vantage-point of the tribes of Jacob scattered into all nations, does everyone have a certified document proving their heritage from the time of the captivities of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, or Rome?

And proselytes were made all the way to China. Are the proselytes gentiles, anymore?

Dispensation = oikonomos, oiko is house and nomos is law... house law.

The two concurrent dispensations, or stewardships, of grace and works have different house-laws. Different rules for each house. The rules that suit your nature is probably the gospel you choose to follow.

I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, for two reasons.

 

[msortwell]

So then... what is the real definition of "gentiles"? From the vantage-point of the tribes of Jacob scattered into all nations, does everyone have a certified document proving their heritage from the time of the captivities of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, or Rome?

And proselytes were made all the way to China. Are the proselytes gentiles, anymore?

Dispensation = oikonomos, oiko is house and nomos is law... house law.

The two concurrent dispensations, or stewardships, of grace and works have different house-laws. Different rules for each house. The rules that suit your nature is probably the gospel you choose to fol

I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, for two reasons.

I understand, you have no valid response to my observation, so you would like to change the topic. I would too, if i were you.

 

[Ligurian]

So . . . Because Paul described himself as the Apostle to the gentiles, you believe every letter he ever wrote is to you - even though the letters were SPECIFICALLY written TO a different recipient? To be clear, I believe his letters apply to us. But your basis for setting James aside is equally valid for Paul’s letters. Paul being the Apostle to the gentiles does not, in-and-of-itself mean that everything he ever wrote applies to all gentiles.

So then... what is the real definition of "gentiles"? From the vantage-point of the tribes of Jacob scattered into all nations, does everyone have a certified document proving their heritage from the time of the captivities of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Greece, or Rome?

And proselytes were made all the way to China. Are the proselytes gentiles, anymore?

Dispensation = oikonomos, oiko is house and nomos is law... house law.

The two concurrent dispensations, or stewardships, of grace and works have different house-laws. Different rules for each house. The rules that suit your nature is probably the gospel you choose to follow.

I follow the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel, for two reasons.

I understand, you have no valid response to my observation, so you would like to change the topic. I would too, if i were you.

Your personal definition of gentiles is my whole point.

 

[Guojing]

So . . . Because Paul described himself as the Apostle to the gentiles, you believe every letter he ever wrote is to you - even though the letters were SPECIFICALLY written TO a different recipient? To be clear, I believe his letters apply to us. But your basis for setting James aside is equally valid for Paul’s letters. Paul being the Apostle to the gentiles does not, in-and-of-itself mean that everything he ever wrote applies to all gentiles.

It is scriptural.

Basically, in the but now time period, there are only 3 groups of people in God's eyes (1 Corinthians 10:32)

Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God.

We, as believing gentiles and Jews who believe that Christ died for our sins and rose again for our justification are considered the church of God, the body of Christ.

There are unbelieving Jews

There are unbelieving gentiles.

 

[msortwell]

Your personal definition of gentiles is my whole point.

My definition of gentiles is irrelevant in demonstrating that the basis you offered for setting James aside (because of the letter’s addresses) while embracing Paul’s letters despite the fact that most of them are addressed to someone other than you, is completely arbitrary. I understand why you would prefer to set aside that line of discussion and pick up another.