saved by grace or by works

Doug Brents said:

“Today” includes everything from Pentecost on. That certainly includes Acts 21.

What James was saying was not “religious “, but cultural. It was not about righteousness, but about appeasing the Jews so that they were not turned off from the Gospel by the messengers.

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James chapter 2 tells you exactly what he meant regarding faith and works for salvation, and it was written before Acts 21.

But again, people refuse to understand James literally, and instead, try to make James agree with Paul.

Guojing said:

James chapter 2 tells you exactly what he meant regarding faith and works for salvation, and it was written before Acts 21.

But again, people refuse to understand James literally, and instead, try to make James agree with Paul.

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So, let's jettison all of the Pauline epistles from the New Testament, no?

bbbbbbb said:

So, let's jettison all of the Pauline epistles from the New Testament, no?

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James 1:1 tells you who the audience his letter is intended for.

Which of those 12 tribes do you consider yourself to be in?

Guojing said:

James 1:1 tells you who the audience his letter is intended for.

Which of those 12 tribes do you consider yourself to be in?

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Then you have answered your own question. Salvation, according to James, is by works alone for Jews alone. Salvation, according to Paul, for Gentiles is a gift of God's grace to Gentiles. Therefore, the vast majority of Christians can rightly ignore James. I think salvation by grace is really a better option anyhow so I can glory in being a Gentile and not a Jew.

There is only one way of salvation, by grace through faith as all of scripture teaches. James 2:What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by [my works. 19You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. All James is saying in this text is that there is no faith if it does not produce good works. How else could one show they were being transformed into the likeness of Jesus if there are no good works. Then the text speaks on Rahab: 25Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? Once again, the text itself states that her justification was demonstrated by the good works which follow conversion, which is proof of what it says will happen after conversion, Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. Being saved by grace through faith, then good works are proof of His workmanship being in us, good works are evidence of salvation. Which is the same as in 1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. 6He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. These verses tell us that us that good works being practiced in the believers walk are a demonstration of His working in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. This is why James concluded the passage with these words, 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Guojing said:

James chapter 2 tells you exactly what he meant regarding faith and works for salvation, and it was written before Acts 21.

But again, people refuse to understand James literally, and instead, try to make James agree with Paul.

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The comment by James in Acts is different from his comments in the letter he wrote. His instruction to Paul in Acts is cultural, not religious. His message in his letter is doctrinal.

James does agree with Paul. No where does Paul say that no action must be taken to receive salvation. On the contrary, he mentions many times the actions that must be taken (Rom 6:1-6, Rom 10:9-10, Col 2:11-14, Eph 5:25-27, etc.).

James does say that faith requires action for it to be real, alive, and effective. Without action faith is dead. This applies to everyone, not just the 12 tribes. The writer of Hebrews says that “faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen”. That means that faith can be seen, felt, handled, etc.

Doug Brents said:

The comment by James in Acts is different from his comments in the letter he wrote. His instruction to Paul in Acts is cultural, not religious. His message in his letter is doctrinal.

James does agree with Paul. No where does Paul say that no action must be taken to receive salvation. On the contrary, he mentions many times the actions that must be taken (Rom 6:1-6, Rom 10:9-10, Col 2:11-14, Eph 5:25-27, etc.).

James does say that faith requires action for it to be real, alive, and effective. Without action faith is dead. This applies to everyone, not just the 12 tribes. The writer of Hebrews says that “faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen”. That means that faith can be seen, felt, handled, etc.

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But which James wrote this letter?

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Ιησους Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.


Acts of the Apostles 15:13-14 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men [and] brethren, hearken unto me:[14] Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.

Matthew 13:55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not His mother called Mary? and His brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas? (John 7:1-10)

Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

Matthew 10:3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James [the son] of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; ...[6] But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 17:1 And after six days Ιησους taketh Peter, James and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,

Guojing said:

James 1:1 tells you who the audience his letter is intended for.

Which of those 12 tribes do you consider yourself to be in?

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Rom 1
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:


2 Cor 1
To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:

Gal 1
To the churches of Galatia:

Eph 1
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

Hmmmm. The pickin’s are pretty slim, if that’s your standard.

msortwell said:

Rom 1
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:


2 Cor 1
To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:

Gal 1
To the churches of Galatia:

Eph 1
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

Hmmmm. The pickin’s are pretty slim, if that’s your standard.

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Curiously, there are some Christians who reject the letter to the Hebrews because it was written to Jews and not Gentiles.

Guojing said:

James 1:1 tells you who the audience his letter is intended for.

Which of those 12 tribes do you consider yourself to be in?

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If I could choose, I'd pick Ephraim.

bbbbbbb said:

Curiously, there are some Christians who reject the letter to the Hebrews because it was written to Jews and not Gentiles.

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And some don't use it because Barnabas wrote it... according to Tertullian.

msortwell said:

Rom 1
To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints:


2 Cor 1
To the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints who are in all Achaia:

Gal 1
To the churches of Galatia:

Eph 1
To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

Hmmmm. The pickin’s are pretty slim, if that’s your standard.

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Romans 11:13 should solve your dilemma there, on who Paul was writing to

bbbbbbb said:

Curiously, there are some Christians who reject the letter to the Hebrews because it was written to Jews and not Gentiles.

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You don't reject the letter, all scripture is written for your learning.

But you don't take Hebrews as instructions written to you, just as you naturally don't build an ark just because God instructed Noah to build one.

Doug Brents said:

The comment by James in Acts is different from his comments in the letter he wrote. His instruction to Paul in Acts is cultural, not religious. His message in his letter is doctrinal.

James does agree with Paul. No where does Paul say that no action must be taken to receive salvation. On the contrary, he mentions many times the actions that must be taken (Rom 6:1-6, Rom 10:9-10, Col 2:11-14, Eph 5:25-27, etc.).

James does say that faith requires action for it to be real, alive, and effective. Without action faith is dead. This applies to everyone, not just the 12 tribes. The writer of Hebrews says that “faith is the SUBSTANCE of things hoped for, the EVIDENCE of things not seen”. That means that faith can be seen, felt, handled, etc.

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As I said, you belong to the group that tries to make James agree with Paul.

Thus, you cannot take what James said in Chapter 2 literally, and have to say, "Oh what James really meant was...", similar to how you would treat Luke 12:33.

bbbbbbb said:

Then you have answered your own question. Salvation, according to James, is by works alone for Jews alone. Salvation, according to Paul, for Gentiles is a gift of God's grace to Gentiles. Therefore, the vast majority of Christians can rightly ignore James. I think salvation by grace is really a better option anyhow so I can glory in being a Gentile and not a Jew.

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No, James is saying Israel needed to be saved by faith AND works, not works alone, nor faith alone.

We can ignore James's salvation doctrine during this period of time because we are living in the dispensation of the grace of God where Paul is our apostle.

But after the Tribulation, if a gentile still wants to be saved, he better follow what James is saying.

Guojing said:

Romans 11:13 should solve your dilemma there, on who Paul was writing to

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Your method of interpretation is completely arbitrary. You are in great danger.

msortwell said:

Your method of interpretation is completely arbitrary. You are in great danger.

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Its not arbitrary.

Romans to Philemon is written TO us.

James is written TO members of the nation of Israel.

Guojing said:

You don't reject the letter, all scripture is written for your learning.

But you don't take Hebrews as instructions written to you, just as you naturally don't build an ark just because God instructed Noah to build one.

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That does simplify my life immensely. Thank you.

When I taught in China I told my students that there are three types of information - harmful, useful, and useless. We try to avoid harmful information and most people take otherwise useful information and render it useless, neatly finding reasons to discard it.

Guojing said:

Its not arbitrary.

Romans to Philemon is written TO us.

James is written TO members of the nation of Israel.

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SOME of the Pauline Epistles are written TO the broader church. But many, including the salutations I quoted are LITERALLY written TO a SPECIFIC church in a SPECIFIC place, at a SPECIFIC time. These epistles, you rightly understand to have application to the church today, even though they were written TO a different people at a different time - just like James. Your hermeneutical approach is arbitrary.

The best reason for not building an Ark like Noah is, God only told Noah to build an Ark. But He did say in James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.