So it was your will that caused you to be born under condemnation?That’s the beauty, and the risk, of having been given the gift of free will.
Same tree. DeathAny authentic righteousness comes from God. Man’s problem was in confiscating that authority from God, in man being his own “god” IOW, determining right and wrong for himself.
And still same tree. Deathwe continue in choosing good over evil, life over death.
No, my condemnation consisted in alienation from God. He gives me the choice to remain there, or come to Him.So it was your will that caused you to be born under condemnation?
He paid the price; but still values our freedom to reject the gift of life that resulted from that payment. The light has entered the world, but man can continue to prefer darkness over light.My one main question was, how does God not justify all unto life since Jesus paid the price for all to be justified unto life? Rom 5:18
Why would He send you to condemnation then give you a choice to come back, then eternally torment you if you don't?No, my condemnation consisted in alienation from God. He gives me the choice to remain there, or come to Him.
As Jesus justified all unto life, those that have not received that life yet do not have a clue as to what they supposedly are rejecting.He paid the price; but still values our freedom to reject the gift of life that resulted from that payment.
How does that line of thinking line up withNo, my condemnation consisted in alienation from God. He gives me the choice to remain there, or come to Him.
I think we're talking about two different kinds of salvation. The one I'm talking about is the one that is secured by Christ. Several verses come to mind.Anyone can return to the flesh, can fail to do God's will, to persevere, to overcome sin, can resist the Spirit and lose their status as sons, which is why believers are exhorted, admonished, and warned against those things. Your freedom is not removed by rebirth.
Only if He's a God without justice and man is not a morally accountable being. Either way the topic here is not universalism.Why would He send you to condemnation then give you a choice to come back, then eternally torment you if you don't?
Sounds rather odd from a God that is love which never fails.
Right. It could only be taken away from you by you. And if that never happens, and it probably won't, then you've persevered.My intimate personal relationship with God, which He gifted to me when He came to live in my heart, will never be taken from me by God. And why would He?
The gospel has nothing to do with once for all complete regeneration without regard to man's will. If it did then there would be no need for the bible, no need for man to be informed and to learn, no need for believers to be warned and admonished, no need for the whole drama of human life where good and evil are present and deciding between the two, born out by the way we live our lives, is a struggle. Nothing in life or in the bible taken as a whole supports the idea that God created puppets whose wills are simply overwhelmed by Him such that we cannot help but choose how He determines that we'll choose. James was speaking to believers, and yet even then his words are those of encouragement, of an overseer guarding a flock that he knew could stray. All of chapter 1 along with the rest of His letter reads that way, in fact. And I sincerely doubt that every person there who first received or heard that letter necessarily ended up saved.Jas 1:18 "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of His creatures."
They see it before they reject it.How does that line of thinking line up with
Jas 1:18 "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of His creatures."
Of Gods will are we begotten that we should become sons. What does your choice have to do with that?
It was the plan from before the founding of the world and your choice will not prevent that from happening. It may delay the process.
That may be your choice, but the outcome is predetermined.
How can anyone even see the kingdom without first being born of the Spirit? They can't
So then how do they reject what they've never even seen?
"It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. " Heb 6:4-6How does that line of thinking line up with
Jas 1:18 "Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of first fruits of His creatures."
Of Gods will are we begotten that we should become sons. What does your choice have to do with that?
It was the plan from before the founding of the world and your choice will not prevent that from happening. It may delay the process.
That may be your choice, but the outcome is predetermined.
How can anyone even see the kingdom without first being born of the Spirit? They can't
So then how do they reject what they've never even seen?
Is there no place in your theology for a new man that is created according to God in true righteousness and true holiness (Eph 4:24) that lives in a house of flesh that is dead to God (Ro 8:10)?The gospel has nothing to do with once for all complete regeneration without regard to man's will.
It seems as though these thoughts on the human struggle with sin could be from experiencing the conflict between the flesh and the Spirit (Ga 5:17), but doubt is raised because the solution offered for winning the battle seems to be flesh oriented and not spiritual (Ga 5:16).If it did then there would be no need for the bible, no need for man to be informed and to learn, no need for believers to be warned and admonished, no need for the whole drama of human life where good and evil are present and deciding between the two, born out by the way we live our lives, is a struggle.
I agree with this.Nothing in life or in the bible taken as a whole supports the idea that God created puppets whose wills are simply overwhelmed by Him such that we cannot help but choose how He determines that we'll choose.
And that has nothing to do with being born of the Spirit first, in order to see or understand the kingdom. You speak of Gods wrathThey see it before they reject it.
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things. (Ro 1:18–23)
And we are right back to square one. Your initial salvation, paid for by the blood of Jesus is given to you period. By grace are ye saved.The gospel has nothing to do with once for all complete regeneration without regard to man's will. If it did then there would be no need for the bible, no need for man to be informed and to learn, no need for believers to be warned and admonished, no need for the whole drama of human life where good and evil are present and deciding between the two, born out by the way we live our lives, is a struggle. Nothing in life or in the bible taken as a whole supports the idea that God created puppets whose wills are simply overwhelmed by Him such that we cannot help but choose how He determines that we'll choose. James was speaking to believers, and yet even then his words are those of encouragement, of an overseer guarding a flock that he knew could stray. All of chapter 1 along with the rest of His letter reads that way, in fact. And I sincerely doubt that every person there who first received or heard that letter necessarily ended up saved.
Most today that think they are saved have never tasted the heavenly gift. They have no testimony other than quoting the Bible."It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. " Heb 6:4-6
I was responding to your assertion:And that has nothing to do with being born of the Spirit first, in order to see or understand the kingdom. You speak of Gods wrath
not His kingdom.
The idea that people can't reject the kingdom of God until after they have been born into it is ludicrous. They see it and reject it therefore they don't enter.How can anyone even see the kingdom without first being born of the Spirit? They can't
So then how do they reject what they've never even seen?
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.The idea that people can't reject the kingdom of God until after they have been born into it is ludicrous. They see it and reject it therefore they don't enter.
Doubt is raised because the human will remains involved.
And one must be born of the Spirit (election) before they can even attempt to be led of the Spirit.Doubt is raised because the human will remains involved.
"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14
It's also as John says in his letters, that if we continue in the sin then we don't even know God; if we don't love we don't know God.
I've tasted of the heavenly gift. And yet I know the human heart and scripture attests to it the same way. Again, that very passage alone speaks of having tasted the heavenly gift and yet returning to the flesh.Most today that think they are saved have never tasted the heavenly gift. They have no testimony other than quoting the Bible.
There is nothing personal about there relationship that they can share. No casting out of the unclean, no being sent, no prayer
language, but they somehow still think they are qualified to tell everybody else about the kingdom, even though they themselves
cannot see it. Not born of the Spirit.
Jesus speaks to this in Matt 7:15-23
Not really, as the passage states I NEVER KNEW YOU. It is in fact a picture of those that think they are saved and are spreading whatI've tasted of the heavenly gift. And yet I know the human heart and scripture attests to it the same way. Again, that very passage alone speaks of having tasted the heavenly gift and yet returning to the flesh.
