Saved by grace: a gift too precious to lose.

[maves]

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:14-15

“Suppose someone should be caught in the act of adultery and the foulest crimes and then be thrown into prison. Suppose, next, that judgment was going to be passed against him and that he would be condemned. Suppose that just at that moment a letter should come from the Emperor setting free from any accounting or examination all those detained in prison. If the prisoner should refuse to take advantage of the pardon, remain obstinate and choose to be brought to trial, to give an account, and to undergo punishment, he will not be able thereafter to avail himself of the Emperor’s favor. For when he made himself accountable to the court, examination, and sentence, he chose of his own accord to deprive himself of the imperial gift.

This is what happened in the case of the Jews. Look how it is. All human nature was taken in the foulest evils. “All have sinned,” says Paul. They were locked, as it were, in a prison by the curse of their transgression of the Law. The sentence of the judge was going to be passed against them. A letter from the King came down from heaven. Rather, the King himself came. Without examination, without exacting an account, he set all men free from the chains of their sins.

All, then, who run to Christ are saved by his grace and profit from his gift. But those who wish to find justification from the Law will also fall from grace. They will not be able to enjoy the King’s loving-kindness because they are striving to gain salvation by their own efforts; they will draw down on themselves the curse of the Law because by the works of the Law, no flesh will find justification.

What does this mean? That he has justified our race not by right actions, not by toils, not by barter and exchange, but by grace alone. Paul, too, made this clear when he said: “But now the justice of God has been made manifest apart from the Law.” But the justice of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ and not through any labor and suffering.” Chrysostom on Justification, (347 – 407 AD) Discourses Against Judaizing Christians.

~~~

I've gotta admit. I'm the type of person that needs certainty. "Better safe than sorry" is a good phrase for most people, but I'm the type who will examine everything over and over and over, and never really have a sense of peace. Sometimes, nothing ever feels "safe". Sometimes, things never feel secure as they should. My mind can be exacting and restless. It has always been this way, though with other matters, for my faith has not always defined everything I do! But my God, the Lord Jesus Christ, has saved me from the punishment my sin warrants, and my life is built upon that!!

So, consequently, over a period of a few years, my restless thoughts found a new target: my faith. The accusations were, more specifically, this: how do you really know you have the actual Gospel? How can you know that God will really accept you?

I know I'm utterly tainted by sin. The only way I'm living and breathing is because of God and His living and active work in me, that is for sure. So each time I saw another argument about our participation in grace through our own merit... I felt sickened. The cognitive dissonance was not serving me well either: after all, how can grace- which, by definition, is undeserved love and kindness- be deserved or merited? How could one merit the unmerited?

Or have I just been interpreting it wrong the whole time?

These past several days, I can't lie, I have been utterly consumed by these thoughts. I have been struggling with- what Gavin Ortlund (from the channel Truth Unites) so eloquently dubbed- "ecclesial anxiety". I scored every resource imaginable on justification according to Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism, wondering if I had made the right choice. Each day I read patristic sources and arguments and debates. I remember the first night this started. I tend to question everything and search for resolutions to each problem immediately, but this one was different; I was spiraling. How could the Catholic church have dominated church history for so long, if it were truly obscuring the Gospel as I'm believing? What if I'm making the wrong choice?

I listened to arguments from all sides, and some were really helpful! (One great example is on the doctrinal development of icon veneration, here:

)

However, I was not given a sense of lasting peace. I still woke up in the morning and felt unsettled, and the spiral continued the next day. I searched for certainty again and again and again.

No one can bring true, lasting peace but God. His Word strengthens me when I have no strength left.

One night, as is my custom, I played someone reading the Bible as I went to sleep. I asked my Alexa device, so I didn't choose any specific passage. I knew God was present then, though, in the passages I heard. They were passages about false prophets who distort the Gospel, and how we are to live in the grace of Christ!! How marvelous, how beautiful, how priceless is the Gospel message!

And our Savior Himself said: "Come to me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light".

This is my Savior... the pinnacle, the epitome of mercy. How great is our God! Who can be greater? Who is more merciful than He is, and who is more just than He is? He is perfect in everything.

I believe in the Lord Jesus, and by His wounds, by His sacrifice, I am healed of my sins.
We can trust the Word of God. It is breathed out by God. What can contradict it? We can trust God and His Word with our lives.

I hope this was of help and was a good reminder to others of our amazing salvation. Take heart! Our Savior has overcome the world. We are safe with Him, clothed in His righteousness by faith. That is a gift too precious to lose!

Thank you so much for reading. If you have any words of encouragement, my brothers and sisters, please share them! I struggled a lot with this. However, I know that I'm not alone in that!

May the God of peace bless you!! I love you guys!

 

[d taylor]

-​

Ever tried the teachings of free grace theology on the subject, here is a little help

https://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Doubt-Sure-Your-Salvation/dp/1943399158

Assurance Made Simple – Grace Evangelical Society

Don’t Base Your Assurance on Feelings – Grace Evangelical Society

 

[fhansen]

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:14-15

“Suppose someone should be caught in the act of adultery and the foulest crimes and then be thrown into prison. Suppose, next, that judgment was going to be passed against him and that he would be condemned. Suppose that just at that moment a letter should come from the Emperor setting free from any accounting or examination all those detained in prison. If the prisoner should refuse to take advantage of the pardon, remain obstinate and choose to be brought to trial, to give an account, and to undergo punishment, he will not be able thereafter to avail himself of the Emperor’s favor. For when he made himself accountable to the court, examination, and sentence, he chose of his own accord to deprive himself of the imperial gift.

This is what happened in the case of the Jews. Look how it is. All human nature was taken in the foulest evils. “All have sinned,” says Paul. They were locked, as it were, in a prison by the curse of their transgression of the Law. The sentence of the judge was going to be passed against them. A letter from the King came down from heaven. Rather, the King himself came. Without examination, without exacting an account, he set all men free from the chains of their sins.

All, then, who run to Christ are saved by his grace and profit from his gift. But those who wish to find justification from the Law will also fall from grace. They will not be able to enjoy the King’s loving-kindness because they are striving to gain salvation by their own efforts; they will draw down on themselves the curse of the Law because by the works of the Law, no flesh will find justification.

What does this mean? That he has justified our race not by right actions, not by toils, not by barter and exchange, but by grace alone. Paul, too, made this clear when he said: “But now the justice of God has been made manifest apart from the Law.” But the justice of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ and not through any labor and suffering.” Chrysostom on Justification, (347 – 407 AD) Discourses Against Judaizing Christians.

~~~

I've gotta admit. I'm the type of person that needs certainty. "Better safe than sorry" is a good phrase for most people, but I'm the type who will examine everything over and over and over, and never really have a sense of peace. Sometimes, nothing ever feels "safe". Sometimes, things never feel secure as they should. My mind can be exacting and restless. It has always been this way, though with other matters, for my faith has not always defined everything I do! But my God, the Lord Jesus Christ, has saved me from the punishment my sin warrants, and my life is built upon that!!

So, consequently, over a period of a few years, my restless thoughts found a new target: my faith. The accusations were, more specifically, this: how do you really know you have the actual Gospel? How can you know that God will really accept you?

I know I'm utterly tainted by sin. The only way I'm living and breathing is because of God and His living and active work in me, that is for sure. So each time I saw another argument about our participation in grace through our own merit... I felt sickened. The cognitive dissonance was not serving me well either: after all, how can grace- which, by definition, is undeserved love and kindness- be deserved or merited? How could one merit the unmerited?

Or have I just been interpreting it wrong the whole time?

These past several days, I can't lie, I have been utterly consumed by these thoughts. I have been struggling with- what Gavin Ortlund (from the channel Truth Unites) so eloquently dubbed- "ecclesial anxiety". I scored every resource imaginable on justification according to Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism, wondering if I had made the right choice. Each day I read patristic sources and arguments and debates. I remember the first night this started. I tend to question everything and search for resolutions to each problem immediately, but this one was different; I was spiraling. How could the Catholic church have dominated church history for so long, if it were truly obscuring the Gospel as I'm believing? What if I'm making the wrong choice?

I listened to arguments from all sides, and some were really helpful! (One great example is on the doctrinal development of icon veneration, here:

)

However, I was not given a sense of lasting peace. I still woke up in the morning and felt unsettled, and the spiral continued the next day. I searched for certainty again and again and again.

No one can bring true, lasting peace but God. His Word strengthens me when I have no strength left.

One night, as is my custom, I played someone reading the Bible as I went to sleep. I asked my Alexa device, so I didn't choose any specific passage. I knew God was present then, though, in the passages I heard. They were passages about false prophets who distort the Gospel, and how we are to live in the grace of Christ!! How marvelous, how beautiful, how priceless is the Gospel message!

And our Savior Himself said: "Come to me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light".

This is my Savior... the pinnacle, the epitome of mercy. How great is our God! Who can be greater? Who is more merciful than He is, and who is more just than He is? He is perfect in everything.

I believe in the Lord Jesus, and by His wounds, by His sacrifice, I am healed of my sins.
We can trust the Word of God. It is breathed out by God. What can contradict it? We can trust God and His Word with our lives.

I hope this was of help and was a good reminder to others of our amazing salvation. Take heart! Our Savior has overcome the world. We are safe with Him, clothed in His righteousness by faith. That is a gift too precious to lose!

Thank you so much for reading. If you have any words of encouragement, my brothers and sisters, please share them! I struggled a lot with this. However, I know that I'm not alone in that!

May the God of peace bless you!! I love you guys!

God's purpose isn't merely to forgive sin, but to take it away, to overcome it in us, to finally bring His creation into rectitude. If there's no change, for the better, then were not justified, not new creations. And the change is meant to continue, and to grow, even if in fits and starts and with testing and backsliding at times. Grace is never merited any more than our existence is merited, and yet God never intended for our existence to be defined or dominated by sin. So He patiently works with His creation, with us, so that, by His wisdom and will, He draws us into increasing justice/righteousness, into alignment with His will, by granting more grace yet as we respond to and cooperate with it. He draws us to His goodness, to Himself-and good fruit results. I appreciate a teaching that states that God, from the big picture, made His universe in a "state of journeying to perfection".

 

[Soyeong]

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:14-15

“Suppose someone should be caught in the act of adultery and the foulest crimes and then be thrown into prison. Suppose, next, that judgment was going to be passed against him and that he would be condemned. Suppose that just at that moment a letter should come from the Emperor setting free from any accounting or examination all those detained in prison. If the prisoner should refuse to take advantage of the pardon, remain obstinate and choose to be brought to trial, to give an account, and to undergo punishment, he will not be able thereafter to avail himself of the Emperor’s favor. For when he made himself accountable to the court, examination, and sentence, he chose of his own accord to deprive himself of the imperial gift.

This is what happened in the case of the Jews. Look how it is. All human nature was taken in the foulest evils. “All have sinned,” says Paul. They were locked, as it were, in a prison by the curse of their transgression of the Law. The sentence of the judge was going to be passed against them. A letter from the King came down from heaven. Rather, the King himself came. Without examination, without exacting an account, he set all men free from the chains of their sins.

All, then, who run to Christ are saved by his grace and profit from his gift. But those who wish to find justification from the Law will also fall from grace. They will not be able to enjoy the King’s loving-kindness because they are striving to gain salvation by their own efforts; they will draw down on themselves the curse of the Law because by the works of the Law, no flesh will find justification.

What does this mean? That he has justified our race not by right actions, not by toils, not by barter and exchange, but by grace alone. Paul, too, made this clear when he said: “But now the justice of God has been made manifest apart from the Law.” But the justice of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ and not through any labor and suffering.” Chrysostom on Justification, (347 – 407 AD) Discourses Against Judaizing Christians.

~~~

I've gotta admit. I'm the type of person that needs certainty. "Better safe than sorry" is a good phrase for most people, but I'm the type who will examine everything over and over and over, and never really have a sense of peace. Sometimes, nothing ever feels "safe". Sometimes, things never feel secure as they should. My mind can be exacting and restless. It has always been this way, though with other matters, for my faith has not always defined everything I do! But my God, the Lord Jesus Christ, has saved me from the punishment my sin warrants, and my life is built upon that!!

So, consequently, over a period of a few years, my restless thoughts found a new target: my faith. The accusations were, more specifically, this: how do you really know you have the actual Gospel? How can you know that God will really accept you?

I know I'm utterly tainted by sin. The only way I'm living and breathing is because of God and His living and active work in me, that is for sure. So each time I saw another argument about our participation in grace through our own merit... I felt sickened. The cognitive dissonance was not serving me well either: after all, how can grace- which, by definition, is undeserved love and kindness- be deserved or merited? How could one merit the unmerited?

Or have I just been interpreting it wrong the whole time?

These past several days, I can't lie, I have been utterly consumed by these thoughts. I have been struggling with- what Gavin Ortlund (from the channel Truth Unites) so eloquently dubbed- "ecclesial anxiety". I scored every resource imaginable on justification according to Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism, wondering if I had made the right choice. Each day I read patristic sources and arguments and debates. I remember the first night this started. I tend to question everything and search for resolutions to each problem immediately, but this one was different; I was spiraling. How could the Catholic church have dominated church history for so long, if it were truly obscuring the Gospel as I'm believing? What if I'm making the wrong choice?

I listened to arguments from all sides, and some were really helpful! (One great example is on the doctrinal development of icon veneration, here:

)

However, I was not given a sense of lasting peace. I still woke up in the morning and felt unsettled, and the spiral continued the next day. I searched for certainty again and again and again.

No one can bring true, lasting peace but God. His Word strengthens me when I have no strength left.

One night, as is my custom, I played someone reading the Bible as I went to sleep. I asked my Alexa device, so I didn't choose any specific passage. I knew God was present then, though, in the passages I heard. They were passages about false prophets who distort the Gospel, and how we are to live in the grace of Christ!! How marvelous, how beautiful, how priceless is the Gospel message!

And our Savior Himself said: "Come to me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light".

This is my Savior... the pinnacle, the epitome of mercy. How great is our God! Who can be greater? Who is more merciful than He is, and who is more just than He is? He is perfect in everything.

I believe in the Lord Jesus, and by His wounds, by His sacrifice, I am healed of my sins.
We can trust the Word of God. It is breathed out by God. What can contradict it? We can trust God and His Word with our lives.

I hope this was of help and was a good reminder to others of our amazing salvation. Take heart! Our Savior has overcome the world. We are safe with Him, clothed in His righteousness by faith. That is a gift too precious to lose!

Thank you so much for reading. If you have any words of encouragement, my brothers and sisters, please share them! I struggled a lot with this. However, I know that I'm not alone in that!

May the God of peace bless you!! I love you guys!

While there are many verses like Romans 3:28 and Romans 4:1-5 that deny that we can earn our justification as the result of our obedience, there are also many verses like Romans 2:13 that say that only doers of the law will be justified, so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than for the purpose of earning our justification, such as faith insofar as Romans 3:31 says that the faith that we are justified by does not abolish our need to obey God's law, but rather our faith upholds it, so the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to God's law.

Graciousness is not opposed to righteousness, but rather both are compatible character traits of the same God that He expressed throughout both the OT and the NT. In Psalms 119:29-30, David wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faithfulness by choosing to obey it, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith, and this is what it means to fall from grace, not the way to fall from it. In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so he was declared righteous by grace through faith by the same means as Abraham (Genesis 15:6) and everyone else.

The content of a gift can itself be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari for an hour, where the gift requires them to do the work of driving it, but where participating in doing that works has nothing to do with earning the opportunity to drive it. In a similar way, the content of God's gift if eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he might know Him and Israel too, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the experience of knowing God and Jesus is the goal of the law, which is eternal life (John 17:3).

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of obeying it, living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so our salvation is not earned as the result of doing those works and doing those works is not the result of having been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do these works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works. Furthermore, in Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what he accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20).

God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to rely on God is by relying on what He has instructed, while it is contradictory to think that we should rely on God for salvation, but should not rely on what He has instructed for salvation. Likewise, it is contradictory to think that by relying on what God has instructed that we are relying on our own effort.

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message.

 

[Clare73]

While there are many verses like Romans 3:28 and Romans 4:1-5 that deny that we can earn our justification as the result of our obedience, there are also many verses like Romans 2:13 that say that only doers of the law will be justified,

Nothing like taking a verse (Ro 2:13) out of context and asserting an implication which is the opposite of its application in is context. . .all in the service of one's personal theology.

 

[Soyeong]

Nothing like taking a verse (Ro 2:13) out of context and asserting an implication which is the opposite of its application in is context. . .all

Nothing in the context is contrary to saying that only doers of the law will be justified. On the contrary, in Romans 2:6-7, it supports that the those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life, and in Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to it, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6).

 

[Mark Quayle]

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life." John 3:14-15

“Suppose someone should be caught in the act of adultery and the foulest crimes and then be thrown into prison. Suppose, next, that judgment was going to be passed against him and that he would be condemned. Suppose that just at that moment a letter should come from the Emperor setting free from any accounting or examination all those detained in prison. If the prisoner should refuse to take advantage of the pardon, remain obstinate and choose to be brought to trial, to give an account, and to undergo punishment, he will not be able thereafter to avail himself of the Emperor’s favor. For when he made himself accountable to the court, examination, and sentence, he chose of his own accord to deprive himself of the imperial gift.

This is what happened in the case of the Jews. Look how it is. All human nature was taken in the foulest evils. “All have sinned,” says Paul. They were locked, as it were, in a prison by the curse of their transgression of the Law. The sentence of the judge was going to be passed against them. A letter from the King came down from heaven. Rather, the King himself came. Without examination, without exacting an account, he set all men free from the chains of their sins.

All, then, who run to Christ are saved by his grace and profit from his gift. But those who wish to find justification from the Law will also fall from grace. They will not be able to enjoy the King’s loving-kindness because they are striving to gain salvation by their own efforts; they will draw down on themselves the curse of the Law because by the works of the Law, no flesh will find justification.

What does this mean? That he has justified our race not by right actions, not by toils, not by barter and exchange, but by grace alone. Paul, too, made this clear when he said: “But now the justice of God has been made manifest apart from the Law.” But the justice of God comes through faith in Jesus Christ and not through any labor and suffering.” Chrysostom on Justification, (347 – 407 AD) Discourses Against Judaizing Christians.

~~~

I've gotta admit. I'm the type of person that needs certainty. "Better safe than sorry" is a good phrase for most people, but I'm the type who will examine everything over and over and over, and never really have a sense of peace. Sometimes, nothing ever feels "safe". Sometimes, things never feel secure as they should. My mind can be exacting and restless. It has always been this way, though with other matters, for my faith has not always defined everything I do! But my God, the Lord Jesus Christ, has saved me from the punishment my sin warrants, and my life is built upon that!!

So, consequently, over a period of a few years, my restless thoughts found a new target: my faith. The accusations were, more specifically, this: how do you really know you have the actual Gospel? How can you know that God will really accept you?

I know I'm utterly tainted by sin. The only way I'm living and breathing is because of God and His living and active work in me, that is for sure. So each time I saw another argument about our participation in grace through our own merit... I felt sickened. The cognitive dissonance was not serving me well either: after all, how can grace- which, by definition, is undeserved love and kindness- be deserved or merited? How could one merit the unmerited?

Or have I just been interpreting it wrong the whole time?

These past several days, I can't lie, I have been utterly consumed by these thoughts. I have been struggling with- what Gavin Ortlund (from the channel Truth Unites) so eloquently dubbed- "ecclesial anxiety". I scored every resource imaginable on justification according to Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and Protestantism, wondering if I had made the right choice. Each day I read patristic sources and arguments and debates. I remember the first night this started. I tend to question everything and search for resolutions to each problem immediately, but this one was different; I was spiraling. How could the Catholic church have dominated church history for so long, if it were truly obscuring the Gospel as I'm believing? What if I'm making the wrong choice?

I listened to arguments from all sides, and some were really helpful! (One great example is on the doctrinal development of icon veneration, here:

)

However, I was not given a sense of lasting peace. I still woke up in the morning and felt unsettled, and the spiral continued the next day. I searched for certainty again and again and again.

No one can bring true, lasting peace but God. His Word strengthens me when I have no strength left.

One night, as is my custom, I played someone reading the Bible as I went to sleep. I asked my Alexa device, so I didn't choose any specific passage. I knew God was present then, though, in the passages I heard. They were passages about false prophets who distort the Gospel, and how we are to live in the grace of Christ!! How marvelous, how beautiful, how priceless is the Gospel message!

And our Savior Himself said: "Come to me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light".

This is my Savior... the pinnacle, the epitome of mercy. How great is our God! Who can be greater? Who is more merciful than He is, and who is more just than He is? He is perfect in everything.

I believe in the Lord Jesus, and by His wounds, by His sacrifice, I am healed of my sins.
We can trust the Word of God. It is breathed out by God. What can contradict it? We can trust God and His Word with our lives.

I hope this was of help and was a good reminder to others of our amazing salvation. Take heart! Our Savior has overcome the world. We are safe with Him, clothed in His righteousness by faith. That is a gift too precious to lose!

Thank you so much for reading. If you have any words of encouragement, my brothers and sisters, please share them! I struggled a lot with this. However, I know that I'm not alone in that!

May the God of peace bless you!! I love you guys!

The first thought that came to me as I began reading your post, and repeatedly as I continued reading, was Grace.

I had gone through something very much like your struggle, but mine was surrounding the notion that my faith (no doubt helped by God) was evidenced by my love for Christ which itself is shown by my obedience. In other words, no matter what I felt, "that night that I accepted him into my heart" "—surrendered my will to him", or whatever other construction you want to put there to show WHAT I DID, I lacked every assurance that it was real, except for the sometimes peace of the Spirit's witness with my spirit, that I am a child of God, and the tired exasperation that says, "God, whatever, it's up to you. I leave it with you. I'm too tired."

This despair was the main thing, I think, that drove me to see Grace. MY self-condemnation was nowhere near as severe as God's "should be". Thus, I realized, (and everywhere Scripture screams it to me), God is the place to beg for mercy, because he is merciful, and further, we can know that he is absolutely just —either I die an infinite death, or Christ in my place. MY justification is not based on my decision, but on his mercy. AND THERE IS THE GOSPEL. Entirely of grace.

I now only rarely even consider whether I will "make it to heaven". My thoughts now revolve around the joy of watching God do what he is doing for his own sake and his own joy and I am seeing him completely satisfied with what he is doing. This life is about him —not me. My performance is not the point, though it near kills me when I find myself turning away from him.

See what's in the hands of the worn-out fellow in Thomas Blackshear's painting below? I've been told it is intended to portray those newly turned to Christ. It may have been meant for that, but I find it STILL applying to me. The "old man" is constantly wearing me out, in my insistence on doing it my way. God have mercy on me.

And every morning he gets me back out of bed to go at it again. It hurts like I can't bear, but here too is where I find his absolute grace, his tenderness, his relentless strength, and his amazing love and wisdom and his joy.

God's mercy is the only safe place to be. Grace.

 

[Lukaris]

I believe when St. Paul quotes Habakkuk 2:4 in Romans 1:17 it means we live out our life in faith and stick to it. I believe what is said in Romans 10:9-13 is lived out daily as long as we do not doubt & stick to it. We keep the Lord’s commandments in daily living ( Romans 13:8-10) as we keep our faith ( Romans 11:22).

 

[Mark Quayle]

Soyeong said:
While there are many verses like Romans 3:28 and Romans 4:1-5 that deny that we can earn our justification as the result of our obedience, there are also many verses like Romans 2:13 that say that only doers of the law will be justified,

Nothing like taking a verse (Ro 2:13) out of context and asserting an implication which is the opposite of its application in is context. . .all in the service of one's personal theology.

Nothing in the context is contrary to saying that only doers of the law will be justified. On the contrary, in Romans 2:6-7, it supports that the those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life, and in Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to it, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6).

Are you serious??? The whole Gospel is due to the fact that we CANNOT do the law. Otherwise, Grace is not Grace.

Certainly our sin screams that we are not his. But to deny that we sin is to deny scripture. And to claim that the law is our way to justification is contrary to Christ and the work of the Spirit of God. GRACE

 

[Soyeong]

Soyeong said:
While there are many verses like Romans 3:28 and Romans 4:1-5 that deny that we can earn our justification as the result of our obedience, there are also many verses like Romans 2:13 that say that only doers of the law will be justified,


Are you serious??? The whole Gospel is due to the fact that we CANNOT do the law. Otherwise, Grace is not Grace.

Certainly our sin screams that we are not his. But to deny that we sin is to deny scripture. And to claim that the law is our way to justification is contrary to Christ and the work of the Spirit of God. GRACE

Nothing in the Bible says that we can't be doers of the law. On the contrary, in Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life!

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so the Gospel is based on the premise that we can be doers of the law, and if we couldn't be doers of the law, then there would be no point in spreading the Gospel calling for us to repent and to return to being doers of the law. Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as his if Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law. So what I said is not contrary to Christ and the work of the Spirit of God, but rather the sum of everything that Christ spent his ministry teaching by word and by example, everything he accomplished through the cross, and everything that the Spirit leads us to do is to be a doer of the law.

In addition, this is grace being grace because there are many verses where God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law in accordance with the Gospel (Psalms 119:29-30, Exodus 33:13, Genesis 6:8-9, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14). In Romans 2:13, it clearly states that only doers of the law will be justified, so while our justification is not earned as the result of being doers of the law according to Scripture, our justification nevertheless still requires us to choose to be doers of the law according to Scripture.

 

[maves]

Nothing in the Bible says that we can't be doers of the law. On the contrary, in Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life!

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so the Gospel is based on the premise that we can be doers of the law, and if we couldn't be doers of the law, then there would be no point in spreading the Gospel calling for us to repent and to return to being doers of the law. Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as his if Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law. So what I said is not contrary to Christ and the work of the Spirit of God, but rather the sum of everything that Christ spent his ministry teaching by word and by example, everything he accomplished through the cross, and everything that the Spirit leads us to do is to be a doer of the law.

In addition, this is grace being grace because there are many verses where God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law in accordance with the Gospel (Psalms 119:29-30, Exodus 33:13, Genesis 6:8-9, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14). In Romans 2:13, it clearly states that only doers of the law will be justified, so while our justification is not earned as the result of being doers of the law according to Scripture, our justification nevertheless still requires us to choose to be doers of the law according to Scripture.

No one is saying that we wouldn't choose to follow God's commandments after being justified! How can we, having turned from the sin that led us down the path to destruction, return to that filth willingly? Isn't that the whole thrust of Romans 6?

Yes, the Spirit empowers us to do His will and follow His law!

I love you and am so concerned for you! So, I ask, just as Paul asked the Galatians: "I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish?" (Please don't take that as me calling you foolish, haha, those are Paul's words, not mine!) "After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?"

No one is disputing the perfection of God's moral law and the obligation to follow it. That is essential. Since the Spirit lives in us now, we can serve Him with clear consciences, knowing "since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1). No yoke is placed upon us to be our own savior in tandem with Christ, rather, we find rest for our souls in Him, and we are freed up so we can serve Him.

We have the same desire: to serve God and follow His law. Good works do declare us righteous, but we have to clarify whose works: it's faith in Christ's perfect life that makes us right before God.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Nothing in the Bible says that we can't be doers of the law. On the contrary, in Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life!

In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, so the Gospel is based on the premise that we can be doers of the law, and if we couldn't be doers of the law, then there would be no point in spreading the Gospel calling for us to repent and to return to being doers of the law. Jesus also set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, and as his followers we are told to follow his example (1 Peter 2:21-22), that those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), and to be imitators of Paul as his if Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law. So what I said is not contrary to Christ and the work of the Spirit of God, but rather the sum of everything that Christ spent his ministry teaching by word and by example, everything he accomplished through the cross, and everything that the Spirit leads us to do is to be a doer of the law.

In addition, this is grace being grace because there are many verses where God is gracious to us by teaching us to obey His law in accordance with the Gospel (Psalms 119:29-30, Exodus 33:13, Genesis 6:8-9, Romans 1:5, Titus 2:11-14). In Romans 2:13, it clearly states that only doers of the law will be justified, so while our justification is not earned as the result of being doers of the law according to Scripture, our justification nevertheless still requires us to choose to be doers of the law according to Scripture.

Has anyone but Christ actually accomplished the feat? Does not 1 John say that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us, and if we say we have not sinned we make God out to be a liar?

 

[Soyeong]

Has anyone but Christ actually accomplished the feat? Does not 1 John say that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us, and if we say we have not sinned we make God out to be a liar?

Though only Jesus kept God's law perfectly, there are many people who are doers of the law, such as those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14, so claiming to be a doer of the law is not the same as claiming to be without sin.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Though only Jesus kept God's law perfectly, there are many people who are doers of the law, such as those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14, so claiming to be a doer of the law is not the same as claiming to be without sin.

I agree enthusiastically that we are to obey God's commandments to us. Beyond mere agreement, to teach otherwise:

"19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5

But that is not how we are saved.

 

[Clare73]

Nothing in the context is contrary to saying that only doers of the law will be justified. On the contrary, in Romans 2:6-7, it supports that the those who persist in doing good will be given eternal life, and in Romans 2:26, the way to recognize that a Gentile has a circumcised heart is by observing their obedience to it, which is the same way to tell for a Jew (Deuteronomy 30:6).

Strawman. . .

 

[Clare73]

No one is saying that we wouldn't choose to follow God's commandments after being justified! How can we, having turned from the sin that led us down the path to destruction, return to that filth willingly? Isn't that the whole thrust of Romans 6?

Yes, the Spirit empowers us to do His will and follow His law!

I love you and am so concerned for you! So, I ask, just as Paul asked the Galatians: "I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish?" (Please don't take that as me calling you foolish, haha, those are Paul's words, not mine!) "After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?"

No one is disputing the perfection of God's moral law and the obligation to follow it. That is essential. Since the Spirit lives in us now, we can serve Him with clear consciences, knowing "since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1). No yoke is placed upon us to be our own savior in tandem with Christ, rather, we find rest for our souls in Him, and we are freed up so we can serve Him.

Great demonstration of Christ as God's full-time Sabbath rest in the New Covenant, where we rest from our own works to save, and in Christ's work which saves (Heb 3:7-4:13).

We have the same desire: to serve God and follow His law. Good works do declare us righteous, but we have to clarify whose works: it's faith in Christ's perfect life that makes us right before God.

 

[Clare73]

The first thought that came to me as I began reading your post, and repeatedly as I continued reading, was Grace.

I had gone through something very much like your struggle, but mine was surrounding the notion that my faith (no doubt helped by God) was evidenced by my love for Christ which itself is shown by my obedience. In other words, no matter what I felt, "that night that I accepted him into my heart" "—surrendered my will to him", or whatever other construction you want to put there to show WHAT I DID, I lacked every assurance that it was real, except for the sometimes peace of the Spirit's witness with my spirit, that I am a child of God, and the tired exasperation that says, "God, whatever, it's up to you. I leave it with you. I'm too tired."

This despair was the main thing, I think, that drove me to see Grace. MY self-condemnation was nowhere near as severe as God's "should be". Thus, I realized, (and everywhere Scripture screams it to me), God is the place to beg for mercy, because he is merciful, and further, we can know that he is absolutely just —either I die an infinite death, or Christ in my place. MY justification is not based on my decision, but on his mercy. AND THERE IS THE GOSPEL. Entirely of grace.

I now only rarely even consider whether I will "make it to heaven". My thoughts now revolve around the joy of watching God do what he is doing for his own sake and his own joy and I am seeing him completely satisfied with what he is doing. This life is about him —not me. My performance is not the point, though it near kills me when I find myself turning away from him.

See what's in the hands of the worn-out fellow in Thomas Blackshear's painting below? I've been told it is intended to portray those newly turned to Christ. It may have been meant for that, but I find it STILL applying to me. The "old man" is constantly wearing me out, in my insistence on doing it my way. God have mercy on me.

And every morning he gets me back out of bed to go at it again. It hurts like I can't bear, but here too is where I find his absolute grace, his tenderness, his relentless strength, and his amazing love and wisdom and his joy.

God's mercy is the only safe place to be. Grace.

"There is no running from God but by running to him, no fleeing from his justice but by fleeing to his mercy."

 

[Soyeong]

No one is saying that we wouldn't choose to follow God's commandments after being justified! How can we, having turned from the sin that led us down the path to destruction, return to that filth willingly? Isn't that the whole thrust of Romans 6?

I made the point in Titus 2:11-14 that our salvation is not the result of having done those works and that doing those works is not the result of having been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works is itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works, and the same is true of our justification. Abraham was justified in Genesis 12:1-5 when he obeyed the call to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance (Hebrews 11:8), he was justified in Genesis 15:6 when he believed God (Romans 4:1-5), and he was justified when he offered Isaac (Hebrews 11:17, James 2:21-24), so he was justified many times.

Yes, the Spirit empowers us to do His will and follow His law!

I love you and am so concerned for you! So, I ask, just as Paul asked the Galatians: "I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish?" (Please don't take that as me calling you foolish, haha, those are Paul's words, not mine!) "After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?"

In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Paul denied in Galatians 3:1-2 that works of the law are part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore the phrase "works of the law" does not refer to anything that God has commanded. In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works while he said in Romans 3:31 that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-11. Furthermore, in Galatians 3:10-12, Paul associated a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 saying that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys God's law will live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to God's law. Likewise, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it. God is trustworthy, therefore what He has instructed is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to have faith in God is by relying on what He has instructed, while to deny that what God has instructed is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God. It is contradictory to think that God is trustworthy, but that what He has instructed is not.

No one is disputing the perfection of God's moral law and the obligation to follow it. That is essential. Since the Spirit lives in us now, we can serve Him with clear consciences, knowing "since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1). No yoke is placed upon us to be our own savior in tandem with Christ, rather, we find rest for our souls in Him, and we are freed up so we can serve Him.

We have the same desire: to serve God and follow His law. Good works do declare us righteous, but we have to clarify whose works: it's faith in Christ's perfect life that makes us right before God.

Being our own Savior would involve not relying on anyone else, so it would be contradictory for someone to think that they are trying to be their own Savior by relying on what God has instructed. Jesus is God word made flesh, so relying on God's word is not doing something other than relying on or having faith in him. In Matthew 11:28-30, by Jesus saying that we would find rest for our souls, he was referencing Jeremiah 6:16-19, where God's law is described as the good way where we will find rest for our souls. What God has commanded are His works. God is righteousness, so there is no righteousness apart from the nature of who He is expressed through what He has commanded.

 

[Soyeong]

I agree enthusiastically that we are to obey God's commandments to us. Beyond mere agreement, to teach otherwise:

"19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5

But that is not how we are saved.

In accordance with Romans 2:13 and Romans 3:28-4:5, the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed as obedience to God's law, so we can say that only those who have faith will be justified and are doers of the law, or that only those who are doers of the law have faith and will be justified, or that only those who will be justified have faith and are doers of the law, so all three require the others, but our justification is not earned as the result of being a doer of the law.

Our salvation is from sin and sin is the transgression of God's law, so while we do not earn our salvation as the result of obeying it, living in obedience through faith in Jesus is how we are being saved from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of how we are being saved from not honoring our parents.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Though only Jesus kept God's law perfectly, there are many people who are doers of the law, such as those in Joshua 22:1-3, Luke 1:5-6, Revelation 14:12, and Revelation 22:14, so claiming to be a doer of the law is not the same as claiming to be without sin.

Oh, well, then. What are we arguing for? I don't know any believer who says not to obey God. And only have heard of some who say it doesn't matter if we do or not. I don't think anyone who is arguing this with you thinks it doesn't matter whether we obey God.