Saved by faith alone
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Danthemailman
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So it's faith + good works = salvation according to your formula no matter how much you try and sugar coat it. Just acknowledge it and own it.
And here comes the sugar coating. By calling them "works of the Lord" you are trying to avoid the fact that it's still man performing the works (man is not passive in performing good works) so not all the praise is given unto Christ after all, because according to your formula, man is saved (at least in part) based on his performance. That seems to be what really tickles your ears and motivates you to continue to promote your sugar coated version of salvation by faith and works in your longwinded, endless posts.
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Danthemailman
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It's not about a believer needing good works to help Jesus save him. It's also not about we must produce good works in order to become saved, but that we will produce good works if we truly are saved. If you are looking to good works to help save you, then you are not trusting in Jesus Christ alone for salvation.
This flawed logic remains your achilles heel. Believers are new creations in Christ, have received the Holy Spirit and the love of God in their hearts. (2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 1:13; Romans 5:5) We have been changed! Praise God! You are continuously accusing believers in the OSAS camp of justifying sin. This makes it sound like you view yourself as "holier than thou."
I'm not sure which OSAS folks you are talking with, but living unholy lives is not what I hear promoted in the OSAS circles that I fellowship with. On the contrary, what I hear too often in the NOSAS camp is that belief alone in Jesus at best "initially" saves you, then the rest is based on your performance (good works) to keep you saved.
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One problem there might be with this is that it's hard to find security in salvation. When we experience ourself sinful we can doubt salvation and another day when everything seems right, we have assurance.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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How do you find security?
Please hover your mouse over the following verses to check them out: 1 John 2:3. 1 John 2:5. John 15:9-10, and 1 John 3:10.
Did you do it? Did you slowly and carefully read them?
If not, go back above and read these above verses now.
I mean, stop and think for a moment; Why else would Paul say, “...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” in Philippians 2:12?
Why else would Paul say, “Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?” in 2 Corinthians 13:5?
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Another thing I find troublesome about “Faith Alone” (Besides ignoring Basic Morality), is that... “Why play games with one's own soul?”
“Why be cavalier or overconfident in one's own standing?”
“What if one may be wrong?”
There are MANY WARNINGS in Scripture against how sin can separate us from God and warnings about being unfruitful (i.e. not having any good works, but evil works instead). When I say good works, this can only be from GOD working through a person. Only God can do the good work. We cannot do any good works without God. All good works come from God because God alone is good.
See, the Faith Alone crowd will say that they don't live like the devil (Note: This differs for some Faith Alone groups who basically say, “you can live like the devil”), but they say, “nobody is perfect and they will sin in this life as a matter of fact.” But they really define this level of sin that they are talking about. So some level of sin is being justified.
What do you think happened to the lukewarm church in Revelation?
Have you not read 2 Timothy 3:1-9 about how there are those who have a form of godliness but they deny the power thereof? What power are they denying? The ability by the power of God working in them to live a godly life (i.e. godliness).
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Behold
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so you are pre-destined elect who believes that God chooses to burn some and save others and that "freewill" either does not exist or exists "partially".
And you believe and teach that God causes/ordains ALL the EVIL in the world.
Do you understand the word "whosoever"?
Do you understand the word "everyone"
-
New International Version
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
New Living Translation
“For this is how God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
English Standard Version
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Berean Study Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that everyone who believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.
Berean Literal Bible
For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life.
New American Standard Bible
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
New King James Version
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
King James Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Christian Standard Bible
For God loved the world in this way: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
Contemporary English Version
God loved the people of this world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who has faith in him will have eternal life and never really die.
Good News Translation
For God loved the world so much that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him may not die but have eternal life.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
"For God loved the world in this way: He gave His One and Only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.
International Standard Version
"For this is how God loved the world: He gave his unique Son so that everyone who believes in him might not be lost but have eternal life.
NET Bible
For this is the way God loved the world: He gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.
New Heart English Bible
For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that whoever believes in him will not perish, but have everlasting life.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For God loved the world in this way: so much that he would give up his Son, The Only One, so that everyone who trusts in him shall not be lost, but he shall have eternal life.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
God loved the world this way: He gave his only Son so that everyone who believes in him will not die but will have eternal life.
New American Standard 1977
“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life.
King James 2000 Bible
For God so loved the world, that he gave his o
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GDL
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Admittedly late to this discussion.
Faith Alone for Salvation:
3 main issues here:
1. Faith (Alone)
2. Thus Works
3. Salvation
The short versions:
Faith:
1. Many have said “Faith is never alone.” I agree, because our Text uses Faith & Obedience virtually synonymously (Rom10:16; Heb3:18—19) & Paul speaks of his service as bringing the nations to “obedience of faith,” which can just as well be translated as Faith-Obedience. When studied out, this is terminology for Faithfulness.
2. Many begin with Paul & find James troubling. Over much time, I now see James as primary re: Faith + Works & I see Paul as coming in after him and qualifying works very technically as “works of righteousness.” So, Faith + Works is really a general & foundational truth re: Biblical Faith in God, & James is not speaking simply of a justification before men as some seek to explain him. Faith + Works is essentially saying nothing different than Faith-Obedience. If we believe God is God & Christ is Lord to whom all knees shall bow, then we’ll do what God commands, including believe in His Son (1John3:23)
3. While here, Faith Alone in Christ Alone, does have important meaning, but it’s not completely accurate, Biblically, because of verses like John5:24. Also, there’s the necessity to more fully understand what Biblical Faith is, as discussed above.
Works: In my opinion we have swung the pendulum too far in our efforts to protect from erroneous concepts of Salvation by Works:
1. Jesus had no problem commanding unbelievers to work to receive the gift of the food He gives that endures for eternal life John5:24. Surely, He speaks of belief in Himself for Salvation.
2. Paul commands us to “accomplish by work our Salvation in fear & trembling (Phil2:12) (The original word used emphasizes the accomplishment vs. the work. Another form used in other verses emphasizes the work). And verse 13 as explanation and the basis of our work is that God is working in us, which is foundational to all the works concepts – we can work because God does & has done all the foundational & progressing work – we can only work in response.
3. I’ve already addressed the Faith-Obedience / Faith + Works / Faithfulness. All we have to do is let the Text speak & let God explain what He means by works & what He qualifies as our works. Paul simply explains that it is not our works of righteousness that are foundational for anything in our Salvation.
4. It seems to me that we need to let God tell us what a work is and is not & this includes whether Obedience is a work, or we’re just asserting it eisegetically.
Salvation:
1. Salvation in much teaching has been narrowly specified as our initial Salvation & our life as Christians is separated as Sanctification, but our Text speaks otherwise re Salvation. Surely there is an initial Salvation through the foundational belief that Jesus is Christ. Then we can another aspect of our Salvation in the Phil2:12-13 referenced above where we Christians are commanded to work with God on our Salvation. And then there are verses like Heb9:28 & 1Pet1:5 that speak of a future Salvation. Some teachers teach this as: We have been/are Saved; We are being Saved; We will be Saved.
2. So, when we speak of Salvation it’s best for clarity that we specify what we are talking about. Jesus commanded that unbelievers work to receive the gift He gives that endures to eternal life. Christ’s Apostle commands Christians to accomplish their Salvation by work. James makes it clear that Faith + Works is the only living Faith. Paul & the Hebrews writer make it clear that Faith & Obedience are inextricably tied together. Search & you'll find that we not only believe the Good News, we also obey it.
Faith Alone for Salvation? Yes, if we know what Biblical Faith is, and understand that Faith-Obedience is not a Work of Righteousness we have done for initial Salvation. Nor is any work we do ever foundational for our Salvation. God's work always precedes. As does His Love.
Faith Alone for Salvation:
3 main issues here:
1. Faith (Alone)
2. Thus Works
3. Salvation
The short versions:
Faith:
1. Many have said “Faith is never alone.” I agree, because our Text uses Faith & Obedience virtually synonymously (Rom10:16; Heb3:18—19) & Paul speaks of his service as bringing the nations to “obedience of faith,” which can just as well be translated as Faith-Obedience. When studied out, this is terminology for Faithfulness.
2. Many begin with Paul & find James troubling. Over much time, I now see James as primary re: Faith + Works & I see Paul as coming in after him and qualifying works very technically as “works of righteousness.” So, Faith + Works is really a general & foundational truth re: Biblical Faith in God, & James is not speaking simply of a justification before men as some seek to explain him. Faith + Works is essentially saying nothing different than Faith-Obedience. If we believe God is God & Christ is Lord to whom all knees shall bow, then we’ll do what God commands, including believe in His Son (1John3:23)
3. While here, Faith Alone in Christ Alone, does have important meaning, but it’s not completely accurate, Biblically, because of verses like John5:24. Also, there’s the necessity to more fully understand what Biblical Faith is, as discussed above.
Works: In my opinion we have swung the pendulum too far in our efforts to protect from erroneous concepts of Salvation by Works:
1. Jesus had no problem commanding unbelievers to work to receive the gift of the food He gives that endures for eternal life John5:24. Surely, He speaks of belief in Himself for Salvation.
2. Paul commands us to “accomplish by work our Salvation in fear & trembling (Phil2:12) (The original word used emphasizes the accomplishment vs. the work. Another form used in other verses emphasizes the work). And verse 13 as explanation and the basis of our work is that God is working in us, which is foundational to all the works concepts – we can work because God does & has done all the foundational & progressing work – we can only work in response.
3. I’ve already addressed the Faith-Obedience / Faith + Works / Faithfulness. All we have to do is let the Text speak & let God explain what He means by works & what He qualifies as our works. Paul simply explains that it is not our works of righteousness that are foundational for anything in our Salvation.
4. It seems to me that we need to let God tell us what a work is and is not & this includes whether Obedience is a work, or we’re just asserting it eisegetically.
Salvation:
1. Salvation in much teaching has been narrowly specified as our initial Salvation & our life as Christians is separated as Sanctification, but our Text speaks otherwise re Salvation. Surely there is an initial Salvation through the foundational belief that Jesus is Christ. Then we can another aspect of our Salvation in the Phil2:12-13 referenced above where we Christians are commanded to work with God on our Salvation. And then there are verses like Heb9:28 & 1Pet1:5 that speak of a future Salvation. Some teachers teach this as: We have been/are Saved; We are being Saved; We will be Saved.
2. So, when we speak of Salvation it’s best for clarity that we specify what we are talking about. Jesus commanded that unbelievers work to receive the gift He gives that endures to eternal life. Christ’s Apostle commands Christians to accomplish their Salvation by work. James makes it clear that Faith + Works is the only living Faith. Paul & the Hebrews writer make it clear that Faith & Obedience are inextricably tied together. Search & you'll find that we not only believe the Good News, we also obey it.
Faith Alone for Salvation? Yes, if we know what Biblical Faith is, and understand that Faith-Obedience is not a Work of Righteousness we have done for initial Salvation. Nor is any work we do ever foundational for our Salvation. God's work always precedes. As does His Love.
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Hammster
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God.
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Whoever is believing has eternal life. It’s an if/then statement. But there’s also context to that statement which it appears that you’ve ignored.
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Swag365
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“To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: ‘The words of him who holds the seven stars in his right hand, who walks among the seven golden lampstands.
2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 (Revelation 2)
2 “‘I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. 3 I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. 4 But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. 5 Remember therefore from where you have fallen; repent, and do the works you did at first. If not, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. 6 (Revelation 2)
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First, you believe the popular belief in the churches today that says future sin is forgiven a person and thus all sin has been wiped out; Therefore, in your mind: It has to be all grace and no works or holiness on our part of any kind in regards to salvation. Yet, the Bible teaches that only past sins are forgiven us (2 Peter 1:9) (1 John 1:9) (Hebrews 10:26). If we accrue new sin, it needs to be confessed and forsaken in order to have further mercy or continued salvation (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) (Proverbs 28:13) (Luke 15:17-21) (Luke 18:9-14) (John 5:14) (John 8:11) (John 8:47) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 3:10) (1 John 3:15).
Second, Salvation is synergistic. We cooperate with all three persons of the Trinity or the Godhead working within us to do the good work he wants to do through us. These good works are not forced upon us. We must cooperate with God wanting to do the good work within us. We have to be open to His working (after we are saved by His grace, i.e. after our past slate of sin is cleansed). We still have to surrender to God and obey Him and trust that it is Him working within us to obey.
Look at Jude 1:21. It is a command in the New Testament. The first half of the command tells us: “Keep yourselves in the love of God,” (Jude 1:21). Jesus said, “...continue ye in my love. If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10). Jesus also said: “If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” (John 14:23). Acts of the Apostles 5:32 says, “...and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.”
Jude 1:21 says keep yourselves in the love of God.
Jesus says a similar thing in John 15:10 by telling us to continue in His love.
How do we continue in the love of Jesus? Jesus says in John 15:10 that if you keep His commandments, you shall abide in His love.
By keeping His commandments, we know that both the Son (Jesus), and the Father will make their abode (home) within us. We know that by our obedience is how we are even given the Holy Spirit. So we have to cooperate with God. We have to on our end walk by faith and trust in EVERYTHING His Word says, and not just those verses we find to be more comforting from our own slanted perspective.
You said:
There are 4 aspects or stages of salvation. None of them contradict each other but they all flow in harmony with one another.
1. Provisional Atonement.
2. Justification.
3. Sanctification.
4. Glorification.
What you fail to understand is that Paul says that he labored more abundantly than all his brethren because it was the grace of God that within him (1 Corinthians 15:10). Meaning, grace made him to be fruitful. For the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (See: Titus 2:11-12). Ephesians 5:25-27 says, “...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
Not sure you caught what this passage says. It is saying that Christ gave Himself for the church for the purpose that He might sanctify and cleanse it with the communicated Word (i.e. Scripture or the washing of the water of the Word) so that He might present to Himself a church that is without spot, holy, and without blemish. So Christ died (God's grace) so that we should live holy. That's the purpose of grace. It leads to holiness.
In fact, 1 John 1:7 says this:
“But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7).
If you walk in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. What is walking in the light mean? Looking at 1 John 2:9-11, we learn by indirect words that to: “walk in the light” means to love our brother. So we must meet the condition of loving our brother in order to have the blood of Jesus Christ cleanse us from all sin.
Confirmation of this truth?
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
John even then says that hating one's brother is the equivalent of being like a murderer, and no murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).
Even in the famous heroes of faith chapter, we learn that the right kind of faith in God's Word leads to right actions or obedience (See: Hebrews 11). But many today are justifying sin under God's grace. Jude 1:4 talks about turning God's grace into a license for immorality. Hebrews 12:14 says we are to follow after peace with all men, and holiness without which no man shall see the Lord.
But if your belief was true, then Hebrews 11 would all be about how God's grace reigned in their unrighteousness or sin. But we know grace reigns through righteousness (Romans 5:21). For it is by the obedience of one that we are justified. So grace reigns through righteous living. This is why grace continues to rule in righteousness with our own lives via the Sanctification Process. God is good, and He wants His people to be good, too. For it is a direct reflection of the proof that God lives within us. Jesus said you will know them by their fruits.
Hebrews 10:26 says,
“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”
In fact, the very next chapter talks about obedience from those who had faith (i.e. Hebrews 11). So you can talk about a Belief Alone type salvation all you like, but it is just not consistent with what we see in Scripture.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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I replied to one of your lengthy posts before. If God guides me to do so, I still need to reply to your older posts (that are super long) before I can reply to any new ones that also will require a lot much of my limited time as of the date of this post. I may have time on my off days next week (maybe). But I am working on a project for the Lord and so I may just let your posts go and or only reply to one or two major points. Honestly if I was on vacation and I did not have a project for the Lord that needs my attention, I would reply to all your lengthy posts. I just do not have the time currently. Not sure if I want to run a marathon just yet. Maybe God will prompt me to do so.
Yes, I am aware my posts can be long, too. But to reply to a lengthy post is too time consuming vs. creating a lengthy post of my own to a person's shorter reply. I hope you understand.
Anyways, may God bless you.
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Danthemailman
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All genuine believers are fruitful, yet not all are equally fruitful. (Matthew 13:23) In regards to the church in Ephesus in Revelation 2, clearly the Lord wanted the church at Ephesus to repent -- to change their minds regarding their works. "You have left your first love" (verse 4). "Repent and do the first works" (verse 5).
Works of love no longer characterized the church as a whole in Ephesus. In verses 2 and 6, we see that the church in Ephesus was not totally displeasing to the Lord, yet hating the deeds of the Nicolaitans and standing up for doctrinal purity still cannot be a substitute for doing the works they first did.
So what did the Lord mean when He spoke of removing the church's lamp stand if the church in Ephesus did not repent? The removal of the lampstand is clearly figurative language. This does not mean that individuals in the church at Ephesus will lose their salvation, but that the church can forfeit its place of light bearing and witness and apparently did. Ephesus (located in modern day Turkey) today is mostly Islam. Go figure.
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Swag365
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I don't think it means that they will necessarily lose their salvation either (although the text does not rule out that possibility). That would depend on what types of future sins they did and whether they repented for them.
Regardless, if they abandoned the love that they had and stopped doing many of the good works that they once did - how is it guaranteed that they will continue to produce any good works at all? Obviously they are backsliding so they can continue to backslide further, correct?
You make it sound as if there is some magical minimum level of good works that all of the "truly saved" will automatically perform indefinitely into the future. How do you explain Jimmy Swaggart sleeping with hookers? Christians becoming atheists and what not?
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Most likely he will say that some cases like these would be proof of simply ungenuine believers (Who never truly accepted the Lord or something to that effect). But David committed adultery and murder. They will say that David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. This means that the Belief Alone view of holiness is just a trojan horse. It's not real. True holiness or holy living does not justify sin on any level. When we say we can sin and still be saved on some level, I believe that is turning God's grace into a license for immorality according to Jude 1:4. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 warns that in the last days perilous times will come and men will be lovers of pleasure more than they are lovers of God. They will have a form of godliness but they will deny the power thereof.
What power are they denying? The power of godliness. The power that God can help them to live a holy life. Not by the believer's power or working, but by God's power and working. Sure, they may even at times say that God works in believers, but then they turn around and say that they can also sin and still be saved on some level.
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Obviously if Belief Alone Proponents appear to be for holy living as a necessary after effect of being saved, then we should all be on the same page. For some will say that holy living and good works will ALWAYS follow a true faith. If that is so, then they must believe good works and holy living play a part in salvation (even if the works and or holy living does not in themselves alone does not save). The fact that holy living and good works is needed to show a true genuine faith is all the proof that we are on the same page of their necessity in salvation. For they will say that if a believer is murdering, and raping, and abusing children, they never received God's grace or accepted the Lord. Granted, some Belief Alone Proponents believe you can do these things and be saved. But for most Belief Alone Proponents, they believe that some level of holy living (Which appears to be defined as being different per the individual) should be present to show that one has been saved. But then, they turn around and say things like how we do not lose salvation if we sin, and how future sin is forgiven us (Thereby implying that one can sin on some level, maybe not murder, but something else with the thinking that one is still saved by His grace). This belief is not only inconsistent but it does not uphold the goodness or the morality of the Lord our God (in whom we serve).
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Good works is merely the proof that God lives in you (Titus 1:16). Jesus said if we love Him, we will keep His commandments (John 14:15). Paul says if any man does not love the Lord, let him be accursed (1 Corinthians 16:22).
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xxkingskidlmxx
He died for you, why not live for Him
since it’s directed to the angels of the churches it would be the spirit behind the person lacking love
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I already gave you the verses on how we can have an assurance in knowing the Lord after we are saved by His grace. Are you ignoring 1 John 2:3, 1 John 2:5, John 15:9-10, and 1 John 3:10?
If not, then at least explain 1 John 2:3, and 1 John 3:10 for me.
What do you make of “walking in the light” so that the blood of Jesus cleanses us of all sin in 1 John 1:7?
It sure doesn't sound like the same thing that you are talking about.
Do you not know that “walking in the light” is loving your brother according to the use of indirect words in 1 John 2:9-11?
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