Saved by faith alone

[Danthemailman]

In regards to what we need to worry about:
I believe we are saved by:

God’s grace through faith (Justification)
+
Sanctification.

Just spell it out and own it. God’s grace through faith + works.

 

[Danthemailman]

Are you affirming what I said then? I don’t want to assume your purpose for posting this.

People must not confuse “descriptive” passages of scripture with “prescriptive” passages of scripture. The end result is salvation by works.

In regards to John 5:28-29, the good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means by which they obtain salvation, but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of their heart.

Doing good flows from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows from a heart that is unsaved. *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18 in regards to who is and who is not condemned? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Just spell it out and own it. God’s grace through faith + works.

I have already defined multiple times how Sanctification includes good works. But these works are not “man directed works” but they are the “works of the Lord” working through the believer. So all praise is given unto Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

People must not confuse “descriptive” passages of scripture with “prescriptive” passages of scripture. The end result is salvation by works.

In regards to John 5:28-29, the good deeds of the redeemed (those who have done good) are not the basis or means by which they obtain salvation, but is the evidence of it. A person's conduct, whether good or evil, reveals the condition of their heart.

Doing good flows from a heart that is saved and doing evil flows from a heart that is unsaved. *Notice that ALL who come forth unto the resurrection of life (believers - vs. 24) are described as those who have done good and ALL that come forth unto the resurrection of damnation (unbelievers) are described as those who have done evil.

What did Jesus say in John 3:18 in regards to who is and who is not condemned? - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already..

You can keep arguing the whole prescriptive or descriptive thing all you like, but at the end of the day, a believer saved by God’s grace needs good works and not evil works so as to fulfill or meet what John 5:29 says.

If a believer believes his future sin is paid for, he will most likely justify sin on some level and have evil works and not good works. But even if this was not the case and they were to live holy (Which most OSAS folk do not seem to promote these days), if they preach to one person that they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus and it is not in what they do in any way, then the person they brought to the faith can turn out to be the next George Sodini and their blood will be on the hands of that preacher.

 

[GenemZ]

I have already defined multiple times how Sanctification includes good works.

Wrong.... Sanctification is a spiritual process that transforms you so that when works come your way they will be performed in the Spirit, NOT in the energy of the flesh.

Works are manifested by two natures...

Grace. (spiritual understanding)
Legalism. (flesh energy -dead works)

Sanctification transforms a believer's soul to establish a believer's mind and soul to perform works as fruits by grace.

Legalism simply reads something, and then as an actor reading a script, does it.

Grace-works is being your new self from a transformed nature when something needs to be done. You do not feel special tying your shoelaces. Do You? Works by grace is an automatic response for works God has prepared for us in advance. (Ephesians 2:10)

 

[GenemZ]

Sorry you're offended I didn't lean on your every word, but there is a reason for that...I did not agree with much of anything you said.

If it were only my word I would not be concerned. There is another Word you do not lean on. You lean upon your own understanding.

So far, you are failing this next verse...

"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean
not on your own understanding."
​

Not only failing it. Willfully defying it. And, doing so with a big on your face.

 

[klutedavid]

You can keep arguing the whole prescriptive or descriptive thing all you like, but at the end of the day, a believer saved by God’s grace needs good works and not evil works so as to fulfill or meet what John 5:29 says.

If a believer believes his future sin is paid for, he will most likely justify sin on some level and have evil works and not good works. But even if this was not the case and they were to live holy (Which most OSAS folk do not seem to promote these days), if they preach to one person that they are saved by a belief alone in Jesus and it is not in what they do in any way, then the person they brought to the faith can turn out to be the next George Sodini and their blood will be on the hands of that preacher.

I have trouble understanding your posts. There seems to be a logical contradiction. Here is a statement you made.

a believer saved by God’s grace needs good works

You are either saved by God's grace or you are not saved by God's grace. If you are saved by God's grace then you have no cards to play, when it comes to your works.

If you are not saved by God's grace alone, then the onus is on you to exert these good works. At an astounding level, I might add, in order to secure your salvation and have that boldness, and that confidence before the Lord.

You cannot say 'saved by grace' and then add 'works'. So that it reads, we are saved by grace in our works?

Hebrews 9:28
So Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.

If the Holy Spirit enables and powers good works to be accomplished. Given that good works are not sourced from us, then how can it be faith plus works?

 

[Hammster]

Whatever, dude. Jesus said it, do whatever you like with it.

I was just asking if by posting that verse if I accurately described your position.

 

[Hammster]

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]
Because God owes no one anything but hell. All have sinned. So if God choses to show mercy to some, as scripture says, it’s not unfair to others because He didn’t show them mercy since it’s unearned.

 

[Hammster]

Reformed theology? Absolutely.

That’s not Reformed Theology.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wrong.... Sanctification is a spiritual process that transforms you so that when works come your way they will be performed in the Spirit, NOT in the energy of the flesh.

See Post #424.

Works are manifested by two natures...

Grace. (spiritual understanding)

You mean a kind of grace where we do not lose salvation if we sin. If so, then that kind of grace easily leads to turning God’s grace into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4).

Legalism. (flesh energy -dead works)

Obedience to the commands of Jesus is actually how we love Jesus. See John 14:15.

Titus 2:11-12 says,

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”

I don’t believe the Belief Alone Version of grace teaches that. Many in the Belief Alone camp have told me that they don’t lose salvation when they sin. So this naturally leads to more sinning under God’s grace. In fact, many in the OSAS camp have told me they will not stop sinning this side of Heaven and others in OSAS have told me they sin every day. This does not sound like they believe Titus 2:11-12.

Sanctification transforms a believer's soul to establish a believer's mind and soul to perform works as fruits by grace.

If you were not for either Belief Alone-ism, or OSAS, then I would agree with what you said here. But you have a different understanding on God’s grace and Sanctification than me.

Legalism simply reads something, and then as an actor reading a script, does it.

I have stated that we are initially saved by God’s grace. This does lead to a changed heart with new desires. But our free will is still intact. But even being saved by God’s grace and seeking forgiveness with the Lord are commands written for us to act upon (See 1 John 3:23, Acts of the Apostles 17:30)..

Grace-works is being your new self from a transformed nature when something needs to be done. You do not feel special tying your shoelaces. Do You? Works by grace is an automatic response for works God has prepared for us in advance. (Ephesians 2:10)

I provided many verses in defense of Sanctification as a part of salvation after a believer is saved by God’s grace. It is up to you to explain them if you are truly correct.

 

[Swag365]

Because God owes no one anything but hell. All have sinned. So if God choses to show mercy to some, as scripture says, it’s not unfair to others because He didn’t show them mercy since it’s unearned.

Why show mercy only to person A and not show mercy to person B?

You seemed to suggest that God saves A to show himself as being merciful, but only saving A would not accomplish that. It is very easy to illustrate.

Steve saves A and lets B drown.

Mike saves both A and B.

Both you and I know that people will say that Mike was the merciful one. Nobody is going to say that Steve was merciful because he saved only A instead of letting both A and B drown.

That’s not Reformed Theology.

Yes it is. It gives no reason why God saves A and does not even give B a chance to be saved. Even if you say that only one is saved "to show mercy" there is no reason given for why A is saved and B is not. It could just as easily have been that B that was saved and A was not given a chance. That is a random, capricious, selection between A and B.

 

[Hammster]

Why show mercy only to person A and not show mercy to person B?

I don’t know. I can tell you what God does. I can’t always say why He does it that way unless it’s explained in scripture.

Yes it is. It gives no reason why God saves A and does not even give B a chance to be saved. Even if you say that only one is saved "to show mercy" there is no reason given for why A is saved and B is not. It could just as easily have been that B that was saved and A was not given a chance. That is a random, capricious, selection between A and B.

God doesn’t do random as far as I’m aware.

Paul did address your concerns, though.


You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
— Romans 9:19-24

 

[GenemZ]

Because God owes no one anything but hell. All have sinned.

....what sins did Jesus fail to pay the penalty for on his Cross?

"All have sinned," is the very reason Jesus negated the rules against us as He bore the penalty we should have gotten for being a sinner from birth. That penalty on the Cross was not the Lake of Fire. Jesus did not go to the Lake of Fire while bearing our sins.

That penalty? Was being forsaken by God. Forsaken while our sins were being poured on His body. Not the same thing as the Lake of Fire. Yet the Lake of Fire is a result of men's evil choice to reject God. That rejection assigns men to be forsaken in the Lake of Fire at that point. Jesus endured the first forsaking by God. The second death with be a final forsaking of another kind - the Lake of Fire.

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice,
"Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God,
why have you forsaken me?"). Mat 27:46​

Jesus remained forsaken until the last sin of mankind was yet to be poured on His body.

 

[Swag365]

I don’t know. I can tell you what God does. I can’t always say why He does it that way unless it’s explained in scripture.

Thanks. You don't know basically. That's fine.

Thanks. You don't know basically. That's fine.God doesn’t do random as far as I’m aware.

Paul did address your concerns, though.

St. Paul does not address my concerns because the Bible does not teach unconditional election. My concern is directed at Reformed theology. Not at what the Bible teaches.

 

[Hammster]

....what sins did Jesus fail to pay the penalty for on his Cross?

"All have sinned," is the very reason Jesus negated the rules against us as He bore the penalty we should have gotten for being a sinner from birth. That penalty on the Cross was not the Lake of Fire. Jesus did not go to the Lake of Fire while bearing our sins.

That penalty? Was being forsaken by God. Forsaken while our sins were being poured on His body. Not the same thing as the Lake of Fire. Yet the Lake of Fire is a result of men's evil choice to reject God. That rejection assigns men to be forsaken in the Lake of Fire at that point. Jesus endured the first forsaking by God. The second death with be a final forsaking of another kind - the Lake of Fire.

About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice,
"Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God,
why have you forsaken me?"). Mat 27:46​

Jesus remained forsaken until the last sin of mankind was yet to be poured on His body.

The problem with that is hell. Hell is punishment for sin. If all sins were paid for, then hell would be empty. And if hell isn't empty, then God is unjust for punishing His Son for sins that will be punished in hell.

 

[Hammster]

Thanks. You don't know basically. That's fine.

St. Paul does not address my concerns because the Bible does not teach unconditional election. My concern is directed at Reformed theology. Not at what the Bible teaches.

It’s one and the same.

 

[GenemZ]

The problem with that is hell. Hell is punishment for sin..

Hell is the punishment for evil. Not sin. Jesus could not pay for evil on the Cross. It would have been impossible. For He would have needed to reject Himself to bear evil.

 

[Swag365]

It’s one and the same.

Nah.

 

[GenemZ]

The problem with that is hell. Hell is punishment for sin. If all sins were paid for, then hell would be empty. And if hell isn't empty, then God is unjust for punishing His Son for sins that will be punished in hell.

Lucifer, while yet without any sin chose to reject the Lord. That is why the Lake of Fire was created for him and his angels. Lucifer was not created with a sin nature. He chose freely. Unbelievers who reject Jesus follow the train of Satan.