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Saturday or Sunday Church?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by tyleryhwh, Jul 19, 2022.

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  1. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to jump in and say that in addition to what MMXX says in post #937, the spirit of the seventh day commandment is also seen in Matthew 6 where Jesus tells us to consider the birds who don't toil or gather into barns... We are not to be worried about tomorrow.

    Those that are worried about the future usually worry every day. Start by giving yourself one day off without worry, then work your way up to every day.
     
  2. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it was just when the quote brackets weren't working that it was a problem.
     
  3. guevaraj

    guevaraj an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins Supporter

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    Brother, Acts, chapter 20, verse 7 does not say the first day of the week with the expression: "the first of the Sabbaths", but speaks from the point of view of the "seventh day" as the most significant "day" of rest in the week of creation, the day of the week we call Saturday.

    On Saturday (not Sunday), we gathered with the local believers to share in the Lord’s Supper. Paul was preaching to them, and since he was leaving the next day, he kept talking until midnight. The upstairs room where we met was lighted with many flickering lamps. As Paul spoke on and on, a young man named Eutychus, sitting on the windowsill, became very drowsy. Finally, he fell sound asleep and dropped three stories to his death below. Paul went down, bent over him, and took him into his arms. “Don’t worry,” he said, “he’s alive!” Then they all went back upstairs, shared in the Lord’s Supper, and ate together. Paul continued talking to them until dawn, and then he left. Meanwhile, the young man was taken home alive and well, and everyone was greatly relieved. (Acts 20:7-12 NLT fixed)​

    I calculate the "day" of rest we know as the Sabbath as starting at sunset in Jerusalem, but not the days of the week that begin and end in the morning throughout the world, as verified during 40 years in the desert with Manna near the Promised Land, and the days are not from evening-to-evening as Judaism assumed due to the Sabbath in Jerusalem falling before the seventh day of the week from morning-to-morning because it is remembered in the creation week time zone.

    So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

    United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  4. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    About the law changing or being eternal,

    Well, we already talked about eating only plants, then all animals, then some animals.

    In addition, Hebrews 7
    For when the priesthood changes, a change in the law must come, too.

    So some people are going to look at the situation and say that the law is eternal, but the application changes. Another person will say the law is not eternal.

    In practice, it will boil down to the same thing imo.
     
  5. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    About heaven and earth passing away being an idiom,

    I agree. But I think it's an idiom for a cataclysmic event, such as the cross and Resurrection.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  6. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Cool, then here I go...
    _________________________
    Edit: Actually already started :D
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  7. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Brother, I think we all agree that the phrase The first day of the week is something that occurs in the scriptures.

    If the seventh day is calculated differently from the other days, then it's not really the seventh, imo. You could call it the Sabbath day, sure!

    United in giving thanks to God for each day.
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  8. guevaraj

    guevaraj an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins Supporter

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    Brother, for those who think that the Bible gives value to the first day, it does not! Everywhere that the first day, which we call Sunday, is translated, it actually speaks from the point of view of the seventh day as being the most important "day" of rest.
    Correct, that's why the expression "the first of the Sabbaths" refers to the seventh day and not only the word Sabbath, without qualifying it to refer to the first occurrence, because the Sabbath is only the seventh day in the place of the creation week and in no other place. This is why Joshua was not able to enter the Sabbath for 40 years in the desert near the Promised Land, when God had them keep the wrong Sabbath as punishment by "oath" by having them keep the seventh day near the Promised Land with Manna, when the Sabbath in the Promised Land falls earlier than the seventh day in the Promised Land.

    So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:6-11 NLT)​

    United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
  9. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    About Paul saying As the law says at the end of 1 Corinthians 14,

    What I'm saying is that Paul says As the law says. He doesn't say According to the traditions you received from us.

    The reasonable conclusion is that he was using a loose interpretation of the law. Or, if he was using a rabbinical or apostolic tradition, that tradition was based on a loose interpretation of the law.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2022
  10. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    About the four laws in Acts 15 being four categories,

    If this is for beginners, how would they know what the 66 laws are?

    What are the 66 laws?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2022
  11. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    More about Acts 15

    I think the specific thing under discussion is:
    "It is necessary to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”

    Which, and I mean this gently, sounds like what you are saying.

    The apostles give a resounding No, imo.

    What are the four laws, then? They are the minimum behaviors from the law of Moses that the gentiles would need to do to keep from totally offending the Jews in the church.

    Are they the only restrictions on behaviors for Christians? No. But I think the apostles expect that the spirit will lead the gentiles and conform them to the image of Christ.

    There are, of course, occasional guidelines given by people like Paul. But I don't think he's intending to give an additional set of commandments.

    It's like the situation with pornography today. It's not mentioned in the Bible. But most Christians have a sense that something is wrong with it, and work to avoid it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2022
  12. ICONO'CLAST

    ICONO'CLAST Well-Known Member

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    The anyonymous author of Hebrews found different ways of describing the superiority of the Lord Jesus Christ. One of them, which forms the underlying motif of chapters 3 and 4, is that Jesus Christ gives the rest that neither Moses nor Joshua could provide. Under Moses, the people of God were disobedient and failed to enter into God’s rest (Heb. 3:18). Psalm 95:11 (quoted in Hebrews 4:3) implies that Joshua could not have given the people “real rest” since “through David” God speaks about the rest he will give on another day (Heb. 4:7). This in turn implies that “There remains a sabbath rest for the people of God” (Heb. 4:9).

    In speaking of this rest (Heb. 3:18; 4:1, 3-6, 8) the author consistently used the same word for “rest” (katapausis). Suddenly, in speaking about the “rest” that remains for the people of God, he uses a different word (sabbatismos, used only here in the NT) meaning specifically a Sabbath rest. In the context of his teaching, this refers fundamentally to the “Sabbath rest” which is found in Christ (“Come . . . I will give you rest,” Matt. 11:28-30). Thus we are to “strive to enter that rest” (Heb. 4:11).

    Since Augustine, Christians have recognized that the Bible describes human experience in a fourfold scheme: in creation, fall, redemption, and glory. We are familiar with echoes of this in the Westminster Confession of Faith (chapter 9) and in Thomas Boston’s great book Human Nature in its Fourfold State. It is no surprise then that the Sabbath, which was made for man, is experienced by him in four ways.

    In creation, man was made as God's image—intended “naturally” as God’s child to reflect his Father. Since his Father worked creatively for six days and rested on the seventh, Adam, like a son, was to copy Him. Together, on the seventh day, they were to walk in the garden. That day was a time to listen to all the Father had to show and tell about the wonders of His creating work.

    Thus the Sabbath Day was meant to be “Father’s Day” every week. It was “made” for Adam. It also had a hint of the future in it. The Father had finished His work, but Adam had not.

    But Adam fell. He ruined everything, including the Sabbath. Instead of walking with God, he hid from God (Gen. 3:8). It was the Sabbath, Father’s Day, but God had to look for him!

    This new context helps us to understand the significance of the fourth commandment. It was given to fallen man—that is why it contains a “you shall not.” He was not to work, but to rest. Externally, that meant ceasing from his ordinary tasks in order to meet with God. Internally, it involved ceasing from all self-sufficiency in order to rest in God’s grace.

    Considering this, what difference did the coming of Jesus make to the Sabbath day? In Christ crucified and risen, we find eternal rest (Matt. 11:28-30), and we are restored to communion with God (Matt. 11:25-30). The lost treasures of the Sabbath are restored. We rest in Christ from our labor of self-sufficiency, and we have access to the Father (Eph. 2:18). As we meet with Him, He shows us Himself, His ways, His world, His purposes, His glory. And whatever was temporary about the Mosaic Sabbath must be left behind as the reality of the intimate communion of the Adamic Sabbath is again experienced in our worship of the risen Savior on the first day of the week— the Lord’s Day.

    But we have not yet reached the goal. We still struggle to rest from our labors; we still must “strive to enter that rest” (Heb. 4:11). Consequently the weekly nature of the Sabbath continues as a reminder that we are not yet home with the Father. And since this rest is ours only through union with Christ in His death and resurrection, our struggles to refuse the old life and enjoy the new continue.

    But one may ask: “How does this impact my Sundays as a Christian?” This view of the Sabbath should help us regulate our weeks. Sunday is “Father’s Day,” and we have an appointment to meet Him. The child who asks “How short can the meeting be?” has a dysfunctional relationship problem—not an intellectual, theological problem—something is amiss in his fellowship with God.

    This view of the Sabbath helps us deal with the question “Is it ok to do . . . on Sunday?—because I don’t have any time to do it in the rest of the week?” If this is our question, the problem is not how we use Sunday, it is how we are misusing the rest of the week.

    This view of the Lord’s Day helps us see the day as a foretaste of heaven. And it teaches us that if the worship, fellowship, ministry, and outreach of our churches do not give expression to that then something is seriously amiss.

    Hebrews teaches us that eternal glory is a Sabbath rest. Every day, all day, will be “Father’s Day!’ Thus if here and now we learn the pleasures of a God-given weekly rhythm, it will no longer seem strange to us that the eternal glory can be described as a prolonged Sabbath!



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  13. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Brother, if the Sabbath is the seventh day of the week at the place of creation, then it seems reasonable to me to wish you happy first day of the week at the place of creation.

    United in rejoicing in the Lord!
     
  14. guevaraj

    guevaraj an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins Supporter

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    Brother, you bring a good point! Since the Bible does not have an alternative expression for the first day as it does for the seventh day with the expression: "the first of the Sabbaths", that also shows that the seventh day is special in the word of God and the first is not special in the word of God. The best example of the use of this alternative expression for the seventh day is in the following passage, because it verifies what I found in Genesis, that the days of the week are from morning-to-morning and that the Sabbath in Jerusalem is before the seventh day.

    long after the Sabbath (evening), as it dawns beyond Saturday (morning), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, to see the tomb. (Mathew 28:1, my own translation)​

    [​IMG]

    United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
     
  15. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    About some examples where we probably disagree in the application of the law,

    There are some laws about not eating unclean animals. I think the application isn't about what goes in our mouths, but what comes out of our hearts.

    A different example is Leviticus 13
    “The leper in whom the plague is shall wear torn clothes, and the hair of his head shall hang loose. He shall cover his upper lip, and shall cry, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’

    I don't think people with a particular skin condition should have to dress that way or walk around that way today. But we do want to realize that sin is to be avoided, and that God judges sin.
     
  16. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    About quoting from the Didache,

    Do you consider it authoritative? Scripture?

    What are you using for your Canon of scripture?
     
  17. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    Brother, it's possible that The Lord's day is an alternative expression for the first day of the week.

    United in seeking God!
     
  18. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    About traveling for festivals and laws regarding Temple practice,

    The temple was still standing for the first 40 years after the resurrection.

    So the people that Paul is writing to in Romans, Corinthians, Galatians... they would all be under those laws, if I understand you correctly.
     
  19. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    One other thought about traveling to Jerusalem for feasts and sacrifices,

    Is the idea that you don't have to do it if it's too difficult? But what about the passage from Deuteronomy that I believe you've quoted that says the law is not too difficult for you?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2022
  20. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

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    About Romans 14 and interpretations,

    If Paul is using a loose interpretation of Torah, then he's not teaching against it if he says it's okay to treat all days alike.

    I don't know of anyone who really says we should disobey God. It's all a matter of which commandments, and how they are applied today imo.
    ____________
    I believe this concludes post 896. I'm enjoying this discussion, I hope you are too!
     
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