1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a forum to discuss Christianity in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Private Member only forums for more serious discussions that you may wish to not have guests or search engines access to.
    • Your very own blog. Write about anything you like on your own individual blog.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

  2. We are holding our 2022 Angel Ministry Drive now. Please consider signing up, or if you have any questions about being an Angel, use our staff application form. The world needs more prayer now, and it is a great way to help other members of the forums. :) To Apply...click here

Saturday or Sunday Church?

Discussion in 'Sabbath and The Law' started by tyleryhwh, Jul 19, 2022.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. guevaraj

    guevaraj an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins Supporter

    +118
    United States
    SDA
    Single
    Brother, happy Sabbath! We no longer have to feel stained with sin for the time it takes to sacrifice an animal, because turning to Jesus for the forgiveness of sins is immediate forgiveness compared to animal sacrifices, not having to offer sacrifices day after day for the people to forgive their sins from the true temple in heaven, as the animal sacrifices delayed the cycle of forgiveness in the earthly "copy".

    Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever. (Hebrews 7:25-28 NIV)​

    United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
     
  2. rstrats

    rstrats Senior Member

    +61
    Non-Denom
    Actually only Mark 16:9 - as it's translated in the KJV and similar versions - places the resurrection on the first day of the week.
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2022
  3. rstrats

    rstrats Senior Member

    +61
    Non-Denom
    Just so it's understood that scripture is silent about that. Nor does scripture ever refer to the first day of the week as the Lord's Day.
     
  4. guevaraj

    guevaraj an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins Supporter

    +118
    United States
    SDA
    Single
    Brother, Jesus rose on Saturday night, after an evening ended the Sabbath in the Promised Land and before a morning began Sunday, because the days of the week are from morning to morning as God taught them with Manna during 40 years in the desert while preventing them from entering the Sabbath by "oath" making them keep the seventh day of the week near the Promised Land when the Sabbath is entered earlier from evening to evening in the Promised Land before the seventh day of the week. Every translation has mistakenly assumed that God's "expression": "the first of the Sabbaths" refers to Sunday when referring to Saturday, another way of referring to the seventh day of the creation week. This is necessary because the Sabbath falls between two days of the week in the Promised Land as shown in the passage below. The Sabbath in the Promised Land falls and takes halves between Friday and Saturday, so you only get half of a Friday and half of a Saturday in the Promised Land, with a Sabbath taking halves between those two days, giving us the following order: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Sabbath, and Saturday, the Sabbath being an eighth division in the seven-day week.

    [​IMG]

    The "evening" ending the Sabbath in the Promised Land is part of Saturday, as shown in the passage below where God uses an "expression" that was not previously understood: "the first of the Sabbaths". This "expression" refers to the first Sabbath of creation week or another way of saying the seventh day of the week that we call Saturday. I will use Saturday for the seventh day as different from the Sabbath, which is separate from the seventh day in the Promised Land, to correct the translation of this "expression" of God. Here, "as it dawns beyond Saturday" refers to the end of the second half of Saturday, the night half from evening to morning, where Jesus rose on a Saturday night after the Sabbath in the Promised Land and before the morning begins Sunday, as the days of creation are corrected from human tradition since Joshua in Hebrews 3 and 4. In conclusion, Jesus rose on a Saturday night, after the Sabbath ended in the "evening" and before Sunday began in the "morning".

    long after the Sabbath (evening), as it dawns beyond Saturday (morning), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, to see the tomb. (Mathew 28:1, my own translation)​

    United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
     
  5. rstrats

    rstrats Senior Member

    +61
    Non-Denom
    Agree. The specific reason that Paul wrote the chapter is summed up in verse 20: "Do not destroy the work of God for the sake of food". The subject of the chapter from start to finish has to do with what people eat. Paul is writing about asceticism. Some in the church at Rome believed Christians should eat only vegetables. Paul calls these people "weak in the faith" (verses 1-2). The stronger in faith know they could also eat meat. Nothing in God’s law prescribes vegetarianism. The stronger in faith knew they were free from non-biblical asceticism. A part of the controversy that had sprung up between the weak and the strong Christians was the esteeming of days. In Rome some people had the pagan idea that on certain days certain foods should or should not be eaten. In this whole chapter Paul was just showing that others should not be offended, particularly weak members who have not yet learned the truth about the proper Christian diet and that they should not be judged by the stronger in the faith. This passage has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

    I do question your comment, though, that "the verse in context is referring to festivals". What is your reasoning for that?
     
  6. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

    +1,433
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Brother, happy first day of the week! If you are saying that a person cannot learn while they feel stained with sin, then we disagree.

    But still United in the one body of Christ!
     
  7. guevaraj

    guevaraj an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins Supporter

    +118
    United States
    SDA
    Single
    Brother, the difference would be one of motivation. The constant reminder that Jesus is on your side serving daily as our High Priest in the heavenly temple to forgive your past sins keeps you motivated to pursue the goal of separating all sin from your character compared to acknowledging that you are still a sinner and not knowing Jesus is waiting daily for you to turn those sins over to Him so that you can continue to grow in obedience to God's chosen commandments to set you free from sin. Think of it as turning daily to a good coach to help you reach your goal that you would otherwise not be able to achieve on your own.

    Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Such a high priest truly meets our need—one who is holy, blameless, pure, set apart from sinners, exalted above the heavens. Unlike the other high priests, he does not need to offer sacrifices day after day, first for his own sins, and then for the sins of the people. He sacrificed for their sins once for all when he offered himself. For the law appoints as high priests men in all their weakness; but the oath, which came after the law, appointed the Son, who has been made perfect forever. (Hebrews 7:25-28 NIV)​

    United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
     
  8. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

    +1,433
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Brother, I see it differently!

    Psalm 145
    The LORD is near to all those who call on him, to all who call on him in truth.

    Psalm 95
    Today, if you hear his voice...

    United in calling on the name of the Lord!
     
  9. guevaraj

    guevaraj an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins Supporter

    +118
    United States
    SDA
    Single
    Brother, seeing your sinfulness only gives you more reasons to turn to Jesus as our High Priest often for the forgiveness of those past sins. The more sinful you see yourself, the closer you will be to Jesus to forgive those past sins daily.

    My dear children, I am writing this to you so that you will not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate who pleads our case before the Father. He is Jesus Christ, the one who is truly righteous. He himself is the sacrifice that atones for our sins—and not only our sins but the sins of all the world. And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments. If someone claims, “I know God,” but doesn’t obey God’s commandments, that person is a liar and is not living in the truth. But those who obey God’s word truly show how completely they love him. That is how we know we are living in him. Those who say they live in God should live their lives as Jesus did. (1 John 2:1-6 NLT)​

    United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
     
  10. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

    +1,433
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Brother, yes! We ought always to turn to the Lord every moment.

    At that moment the Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon him, and he ripped the lion’s jaws apart with his bare hands. He did it as easily as if it were a young goat. But he didn’t tell his father or mother about it.
    Bible Gateway passage: Judges 14 - New Living Translation

    But I will offer sacrifices to you with songs of praise,
    and I will fulfill all my vows.
    For my salvation comes from the Lord alone.
    Bible Gateway passage: Jonah 2 - New Living Translation

    United in always wanting to turn to the Lord.
     
  11. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

    +1,433
    United States
    Christian
    Married
  12. guevaraj

    guevaraj an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins Supporter

    +118
    United States
    SDA
    Single
    Brother, Sunday doesn't appear even once in the Bible. Wherever Sunday was supposed, the passage actually speaks from the point of view of Saturday as the most important day of the week. No translation has understood the "expression" of God: "the first of the Sabbaths". It does not refer to Sunday but to Saturday being the first Sabbath, another way of referring to the seventh day of the creation week. This is necessary because the Sabbath falls between two days of the week in the Promised Land as shown in the passage below. The Sabbath in the Promised Land falls and takes halves between Friday and Saturday, so you only get half of a Friday and half of a Saturday in the Promised Land, with a Sabbath taking halves between those two days, giving us the following order: Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Sabbath, and Saturday, the Sabbath being an eighth division in the seven-day week.

    [​IMG]

    The "evening" ending the Sabbath in the Promised Land is part of Saturday, as shown in the passage below where God uses an "expression" that was not previously understood: "the first of the Sabbaths". This "expression" refers to the first Sabbath of creation week or another way of saying the seventh day of the week that we call Saturday. I will use Saturday for the seventh day as different from the Sabbath, which is separate from the seventh day in the Promised Land, to correct the translation of this "expression" of God. Here, "as it dawns beyond Saturday" refers to the end of the second half of Saturday, the night half from evening to morning, where Jesus rose on a Saturday night after the Sabbath in the Promised Land and before the morning begins Sunday, as the days of creation are corrected from human tradition since Joshua in Hebrews 3 and 4. In conclusion, Jesus rose on a Saturday night, after the Sabbath ended in the "evening" and before Sunday began in the "morning".

    long after the Sabbath (evening), as it dawns beyond Saturday (morning), came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary, to see the tomb. (Mathew 28:1, my own translation)​

    United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
     
  13. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +3,999
    Messianic
    Single
    Thank you, just start from the top.
     
  14. Soyeong

    Soyeong Well-Known Member

    +3,999
    Messianic
    Single
    In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, God said that His law is not too difficult for us to keep and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as something that not one but Jesus can keep, so saying that we are not able to keep it is in direct disagreement with God, and no matter how many Christians are in direct disagreement with God, they are all wrong. Furthermore, the Bible records examples of people who kept the law, such as in Joshua 22:1-3 and Luke 1:5-6. Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Torah by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant for the purpose of undermining anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant involves God putting the Torah in our minds and writing it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33).

    Indeed it is a logical fallacy to presume that a proposition is true based on how many people believe it is true, though that is only something that you have done. I am neither part of a splinter faction nor have I claimed that what I believe must be true because and handful of people insist that they are right and everyone else is wrong, but rather I have made the case for why believe that I am correct and why others are wrong, so please interact with what I've said to make the case for why it is wrong. For example, I want you to please explain why others interpret Jeremiah 31:33 as saying that it is contrary to the New Covenant to follow the Torah when it clearly states that God will put the Torah in our minds and write it on our hearts.
     
  15. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus is Lord Supporter

    +6,773
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    You're just repeating yourself at this point. Like I've already said, if a few want to drag New Covenant Christianity into Old Covenant Judaism, that's as good of a formula as any for them to go by I suppose.
    Concerning Jeremiah 31:33, the idea of the New Covenant though Jesus Christ is that we live by the spirit of the law (in our minds and hearts) rather than being under the Old Covenant letter of the law. I've found that several passages used by sabbatarian Old Covenant law keepers to back up their theology, actually goes against it.
     
  16. rstrats

    rstrats Senior Member

    +61
    Non-Denom
    [QUOTE="MMXX,

    Concerning Jeremiah 31:33, the idea of the New Covenant though Jesus Christ is that we live by the spirit of the law (in our minds and hearts) [/QUOTE]


    What is the spirit of the seventh day of the week Sabbath commandment?
     
  17. MMXX

    MMXX Jesus is Lord Supporter

    +6,773
    United States
    Christian
    Single
    I'd say that unlike the Old Covenant written law God made exclusively with the Hebrews regarding physical rest, in the Christian New Covenant our spirit rests in the completed work of salvation through Christ our Lord of the Sabbath. Matthew 12:8
     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2022
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • List
  18. guevaraj

    guevaraj an oil seller in the story of the ten virgins Supporter

    +118
    United States
    SDA
    Single
    Brother, that human tradition came from a mistranslation of Hebrews 4 in the King James Version (KJV), evident in the update in the New King James Version (NKJV). "Joshua" was not "Jesus" before David as found in the KJV and its effect on the rest of the passage, where the KJV mistranslated the "good news" of entering the Sabbath as the "gospel" of Jesus, which was not possible before David for those who first heard the "good news" of entering the Sabbath in the desert.

    again He designates a certain day, saying in David, “Today,” after such a long time, as it has been said: “Today, if you will hear His voice, Do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua (not Jesus) had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. (Hebrews 4:7-8 NKJV)​

    Here is a translation that didn't make that mistake. Notice that it does not assume that those who have accepted Jesus have already entered the "day" of rest as the KJV mistranslated the "good news" of entering the Sabbath as the "gospel" of Jesus.

    God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” So God’s rest is there for people to enter, but those who first heard this good news failed to enter because they disobeyed God. So God set another time for entering his rest, and that time is today. God announced this through David much later in the words already quoted: “Today when you hear his voice, don’t harden your hearts.” Now if Joshua had succeeded in giving them this rest, God would not have spoken about another day of rest still to come. So there is a special rest still waiting for the people of God. For all who have entered into God’s rest have rested from their labors, just as God did after creating the world. So let us do our best to enter that rest. But if we disobey God, as the people of Israel did, we will fall. (Hebrews 4:1-11 NLT)​

    United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge
     
  19. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

    +1,433
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    Brother, yes! Sunday doesn't occur in the scriptures but The first day of the week does.

    On the first day of the week, we gathered with the local believers to share in the Lord’s Supper.
    Bible Gateway passage: Acts 20 - New Living Translation

    That's why in post #926, I wished you Happy first day of the week, even though the CF clock said Saturday at 4:11 PM. I know you calculate days of the week as starting at sunset in Jerusalem.

    And the Lord's Day occurs in the scriptures. It probably refers to the first day of the week imo.

    United in growing in the knowledge of God!
     
  20. Leaf473

    Leaf473 Well-Known Member

    +1,433
    United States
    Christian
    Married
    That's cool with me, but I'll have to quote the entire post each time. Are you cool with that?
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...