Sanctification - Justification - Redemption

[redleghunter]

So if adoption, then one is required to persevere in the faith and overcome correct?

How much of Roman adoption are you aware of?

 

[redleghunter]

So if adoption, then one is required to persevere in the faith and overcome correct?

Yes the saints will persevere and be preserved. That was the whole purpose of using the pledge language in Ephesians 1.

Remember the pledge is from God. It’s not some down payment in hopes things turn out ok. Like hedging bets.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Of course not, through Baptism a Believer becomes Born Again, he is at that moment Transformed.......Into a New Creature, this is so basic, I would have thought you would have read it by now, here it is for you below.

And I would’ve thought you would be able to conclude from the context of my post that I have read it and that the purpose of asking that rhetorical question was to invoke thought in the reader.

 

[Oldmantook]

How much of Roman adoption are you aware of?

How much of 1 John adoption are you aware of?
1 Jn 3:8 "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning...."

 

[redleghunter]

How much of 1 John adoption are you aware of?
1 Jn 3:8 "Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning...."

Where does he quote adoption?

 

[Oldmantook]

Yes the saints will persevere and be preserved. That was the whole purpose of using the pledge language in Ephesians 1.

Remember the pledge is from God. It’s not some down payment in hopes things turn out ok. Like hedging bets.

Obviously, some of those in the 7 Churches in Revelation did not persevere but were dead which totally contradicts your belief.
“To the angel of the church in Sardis of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you."

 

[Oldmantook]

Where does he quote adoption?

He doesn't have to use the word adoption. Why don't you pay attention to v.7? Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous....
Little children is a term only used exclusively for believers. John states believers who practice righteous are righteous. In contrast, the very next verse he wrote whoever meaning everyone including believers who practice sinning is of the devil. A child of God can choose to practice sin which would then make him/her a child of the devil.
The word abortion isn't in the Bible either but I suppose you wouldn't be for abortion just because it's omitted from the text would you?

 

[redleghunter]

He doesn't have to use the word adoption. Why don't you pay attention to v.7? Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous....
Little children is a term only used exclusively for believers. John states believers who practice righteous are righteous. In contrast, the very next verse he wrote whoever meaning everyone including believers who practice sinning is of the devil. A child of God can choose to practice sin which would then make him/her a child of the devil.
The word abortion isn't in the Bible either but I suppose you wouldn't be for abortion just because it's omitted from the text would you?

No he does not indicate believers. The entire epistle is a contrast of those who are and those who are not.

Do you believe there can be no false conversions?

 

[redleghunter]

Obviously, some of those in the 7 Churches in Revelation did not persevere but were dead which totally contradicts your belief.
“To the angel of the church in Sardis of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but you are dead. Wake up! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds unfinished in the sight of my God. Remember, therefore, what you have received and heard; hold it fast, and repent. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you."

Is he speaking to churches or individuals?

 

[bcbsr]

Christ is the beginning = Creator. And the end = Judge.

KJV Dictionary Definition: JUSTIFICA'TION, n. In theology, remission of sin and absolution from guilt and punishment; or an act of free grace by which God pardons the sinner and accepts him as righteous, on account of the atonement of Christ.

KJV Dictionary Definition: REDEMP'TION, n.In theology, the purchase of God's favor by the death and sufferings of Christ; the ransom or deliverance of sinners from the bondage of sin and the penalties of God's violated law by the atonement of Christ. In whom we have redemption through his blood. Eph 1:7

The sinless Christ's redemptive sacrificial sin atonment. Paid in full, the laws required wage for sin, Death (Rom 6:23).

When we place our faith in Christ's death (sins required wage, paid in full) burial (proof Christ died) & resurrection (God's receipt, payment received & accepted).

God then imputes/transfers our sins onto Christ & Christ's righteousness onto us (Lev 4 & Rom 4:22-25).

2 Cor 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
(NOTE: Thru Christ's faithful sin atoning payment & our faith placxed in it/Him. Our sins are imputed onto Christ & Christ's righteousness is imputed onto Christ.

KJV Dictionary Definition: SANCTIFICA'TION, n. The act of making holy, the act of consecrating or of setting apart for a sacred purpose; consecration.

So, to sanctify, something is to set it apart for special use. The moment we believe/trust place our faith in Christ's Sin atoning death, burial & resurrection. God saves (justifies), seal's us with His Holy Spirit) & sanctifies (sets us apart, for a work/mission Eph 2:10)

At the moment we truly make the decision to trust Christ we are justified/saved & sanctified.

Our salvation is forever secure. Sanctification is a process that continues, until our final redemption. When we meet the Lord & receive a new incorruptible/heavenly body.

Eph 1:
13 In Christ you trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(NOTE: The moment we are saved, God ""SEALS"" us with His Holy Spirit, its His promise to us)

14 Which is the "earnest" of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
(NOTE: Earnest means - down payment. The indwelling Holy Spirit is our down payment that keeps/guards us until the final day. When we receive our glorified incorruptible/heavenly body.

2 Tim 1:14 The Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you

2 cor 1:22 Who hath also "sealed us" & "given the earnest" of the Holy Spirit in our hearts

So, the life long sanctification process begins: the moment we are justified = saved, sanctified = set apart for Godly work in Christ.

I'm on board with you. But as you might have noticed, these forums tend to be dominated by salvation-by-works "Christians" hostile to the gospel.

 

[redleghunter]

I'm on board with you. But as you might have noticed, these forums tend to be dominated by salvation-by-works "Christians" hostile to the gospel.

Good to have you back.

 

[Phil W]

I'm on board with you. But as you might have noticed, these forums tend to be dominated by salvation-by-works "Christians" hostile to the gospel.

Do you consider confession of and repentance from sin, water baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins, and enduring faithfully till the end as "works"?
Or do you see that the "works for salvation" that Paul wrote against are the dictates of the Mosaic Law, ie...circumcision, dietary laws, feast keeping, tithing, etc?

 

[bcbsr]

Do you consider confession of and repentance from sin, water baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins, and enduring faithfully till the end as "works"?
Or do you see that the "works for salvation" that Paul wrote against are the dictates of the Mosaic Law, ie...circumcision, dietary laws, feast keeping, tithing, etc?

Given that Paul said, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5 It's clear to me he's speaking generically of doing works to qualify oneself to be saved.

Furthermore he doesn't contrast one type of work with another type of work, but rather he contrasts working to gain something like one works for a wage in contrast to receiving something as a free gift, and that solely based upon not working for it but rather trusting in God, and as spoke at the beginning of Romans 4, it's gained by trust in God's promise and God's ability to deliver on His promise.

Rom 4:1-3 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter?If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about— but not before God. What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Note that immediately upon believing the promise Abraham was reckoned righteousness. And that reckoning of righteousness Paul likes to the Christian being reconciled with God, and that by faith apart from works, as he says also of David in Rom 4:6-8 "David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.'"

Thus the sole condition for salvation is faith apart from works, as Jesus also said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

In contrast is the salvation-by-works soteriology that perhaps the majority of "Christians" on these forums advocate, of which I oppose.

Since you're interested in my view of "repentance" see my article at Repentance

As for my view of water baptism see Baptism

And concerning the Perseverance of the Saints see Perseverance of the Saints

 

[Phil W]

Given that Paul said, "Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." Rom 4:4,5 It's clear to me he's speaking generically of doing works to qualify oneself to be saved.

Wasn't showing faith something Abraham "did"?
Isn't that a work in the widest sense?

Furthermore he doesn't contrast one type of work with another type of work, but rather he contrasts working to gain something like one works for a wage in contrast to receiving something as a free gift, and that solely based upon not working for it but rather trusting in God, and as spoke at the beginning of Romans 4, it's gained by trust in God's promise and God's ability to deliver on His promise.

But he does "contrast it" in verse 13..."For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith."
Law-faith, clearly contrasted.

Note that immediately upon believing the promise Abraham was reckoned righteousness. And that reckoning of righteousness Paul likens to the Christian being reconciled with God, and that by faith apart from works, as he says also of David in Rom 4:6-8 "David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works: 'Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him.'"

What works is Paul referring to?
The works of the Law.

Thus the sole condition for salvation is faith apart from works, as Jesus also said, "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life."

What works is Paul referring to?
Certainly not having faith or believing.
But are not both of those things we must "do"?
It is the works of the Law that Paul is referring to. Circumcision, dietary laws, clothing laws, feast keeping, Passover rules, etc.

In contrast is the salvation-by-works soteriology that perhaps the majority of "Christians" on these forums advocate, of which I oppose.

I haven't seen anyone advocating circumcision on this forum.

Since you're interested in my view of "repentance" see my article at Repentance
As for my view of water baptism see Baptism
And concerning the Perseverance of the Saints see Perseverance of the Saints

I'll check them out and get back to you.

I "clicked on" the blue lettering, but nothing happened.
Can you provide another avenue for me to see your threads on the topics of repentance and baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins?[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[bcbsr]

Wasn't showing faith something Abraham "did"?
Isn't that a work in the widest sense?

Between being given the promise in Gen 15:5 and God declaring him righteous by Abraham's faith in the promise Abraham did no work. Look for yourself. Between Gen 15:5 and Gen 15:6 what "work" did Abraham do? None. Thus he was justified by faith ALONE apart from works. And that's Paul's point in Romans 4.

What works is Paul referring to?
The works of the Law.
What works is Paul referring to?

As for "works of the Law" no such phrase is used in Romans 4 nor prior to that. You can find it is Galatians, such as Gal 3:10-12 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."(Deut 27:26) Now that no man is justified by the law before God is evident, for,"The righteous will live by faith." (Hab 2:4) The law is not of faith, but,"The man who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

Allowing Paul to define what he means by the "Law" and by the "works of the Law" we simply go to the Old Testament cross references that Paul gives, the context of which indicates primarily what you might classify as "moral laws", such as not being involved with sexual immorality, Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not deceive one another.Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. Do not defraud your neighbor or rob him. "’Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight. Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD. Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly. Do not go about spreading slander among your people. Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD. Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

What you Salvation-by-Works Christians would alleged is that "Works of the Law" are only about ceremonial matters, not moral matters, which in fact is not the case as I've shown above. And then you people go on to allege that salvation is contingent upon ceremonial matters, like water baptism and obeying whatever laws you reckoned replace the law of Moses. It's the same thing. You're the same as the group of the Circumcision in spirit, just replacing the particulars with your own legalism. And not only do you not believe the gospel of grace, you people publicly oppose it and persecute believers.

I "clicked on" the blue lettering, but nothing happened.
Can you provide another avenue for me to see your threads on the topics of repentance and baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of sins?

They work for me.

 

[Phil W]

Between being given the promise in Gen 15:5 and God declaring him righteous by Abraham's faith in the promise Abraham did no work. Look for yourself. Between Gen 15:5 and Gen 15:6 what "work" did Abraham do? None.

He believed.

Thus he was justified by faith ALONE apart from works. And that's Paul's point in Romans 4.

As there was no Mosaic Law yet, he couldn't do any works of the Law.

As for "works of the Law" no such phrase is used in Romans 4 nor prior to that. You can find it is Galatians, such as Gal 3:10-12 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."(Deut 27:26) Now that no man is justified by the law before God is evident, for,"The righteous will live by faith." (Hab 2:4) The law is not of faith, but,"The man who does them will live by them." (Lev 18:5)

Maybe not in Rom 4, but that is the intent almost every time Paul refers to "works". It was what the Jews of his time depended on for their salvation, and Paul was distancing them from such a belief.
My intent of this discussion is to determine if you think repentance from sin and baptism for the remission of past sins are works?
And do you feel they are necessary to be saved?
Though not of the Law, what is your determination?

Allowing Paul to define what he means by the "Law" and by the "works of the Law" we simply go to the Old Testament cross references that Paul gives, the context of which indicates primarily what you might classify as "moral laws", such as not being involved with sexual immorality, Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not deceive one another.Do not swear falsely by my name and so profane the name of your God. I am the LORD. Do not defraud your neighbor or rob him. "’Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight. Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the LORD. Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favoritism to the great, but judge your neighbor fairly. Do not go about spreading slander among your people. Do not do anything that endangers your neighbor’s life. I am the LORD. Do not hate your brother in your heart. Rebuke your neighbor frankly so you will not share in his guilt. Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbor as yourself. I am the LORD.

Thanks for that, but Paul is also referring to circumcision, dietary law, feast keeping, tithing, temple worship, etc.
Those are the things no longer necessary for salvation.

What you Salvation-by-Works Christians would alleged is that "Works of the Law" are only about ceremonial matters, not moral matters, which in fact is not the case as I've shown above. And then you people go on to allege that salvation is contingent upon ceremonial matters, like water baptism and obeying whatever laws you reckoned replace the law of Moses. It's the same thing. You're the same as the group of the Circumcision in spirit, just replacing the particulars with your own legalism. And not only do you not believe the gospel of grace, you people publicly oppose it and persecute believers.

Hardly.
For by our turn from sin and baptism into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection we have been afforded our rebirth as men of the seed of God.
We are given the mind of Christ, the Comforter, and the seal of the inheritance to keep us in tune with "Love God above all else and your neighbor as you love yourself".
There are no liars, thieves, or murderers among those who have used their faith to submit totally to God.

I find that the "faith alone" folks don't use their faith for anything but to say they are saved.
Where is the faith of a liar or thief?