Sanctification by Works

[Dr.Strangelove]

I am done arguing with you since you do not read what is truly being said... You claim that you have proven your point by using the writings of John Gill and I prove you wrong by quoting the rest of John Gill and what he meant but you still deny that. John Gill said, Natural Law is the Law of Moses, Believers are to obey them as a rule of walk/life as part of our sanctification, etc.. You can take no refuge in John Gill.. I have provided amble scriptures but instead you ignore them and claim that I have not provided any evidence or even single verse.. Christ whole sermon in Matthew 5 was expounding on the Law of Moses, "You have heard it said" but I tell you that you are not doing such and such unless you not only do the outward element of the law but the internal element of the law. As John Gill puts it, You can not separate the Law of Moses from the Law of Nature, it is the samething. To love God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself is ONLY done through the keeping of the law. The law is Love, and Love is the law and that is why Christ summarized the law into the two commandments because that is what the law does..

Michael Sir. I took a quote by Gill and posted it because I agreed with what he said IN THAT QUOTE ONLY. It doesn't matter what else this man says.....I didn't quote him on the other things that you mention, because I dont agree with them. If I did, I would have quoted it. Just because the man has certain other views on the issue, doesn't mean I can't quote and agree with things that he has said that support my position.

I do not mind debating at all.. I love to debate for it is "iron sharpening iron" and strengthens us but when what one says just "flys by" without hearing what is being said then it is time to fold up camp.

I heard what you said. You are attempting to discredit my source because of words of his that I didn't refer to. It's an intellectually dishonest debate tactic. If I had simply rehashed what he had said in my own words, you wouldn't be coming out with all this.

I will pray for you.. For Antinomianism is a dangerous ground and I pray you will come out of that mindset...

If antinomianism means I believe we are fully sanctified by Grace through faith in Christ and are incapable of adding to that glorious gift that the Lord has imparted on us with our own works then.....I have no need of your prayers friend. I am right where I need to be.

3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the
works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made
perfect by the flesh?

3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh
miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the
hearing of faith?​

​

 

[MikhaelDavid]

Strangelove,

I have no problem with quotes from people that you or I might disagree with on other topics.. I have major problems when one quote is being used to proof a position that the guy in question did not even hold to. You can not read scriptures or even commentaries like a newspaper columns.. They must be read systematically.. The quote by itself that you provided "might" prove your point if that was all John Gill said on the subject but that is not the case.. You can not quote the one quote without the rest of the quotes on that particular subject. John Gill believes in a synergistic view of sanctification which is what I have presented.. In one area he says it is a work of God then he adds elsewhere it is also man's duty. So just quoting the one quote on the subject is taking out of context what John Gill is teaching as a whole on the subject..

Michael

Michael Sir. I took a quote by Gill and posted it because I agreed with what he said IN THAT QUOTE ONLY. It doesn't matter what else this man says.....I didn't quote him on the other things that you mention, because I dont agree with them. If I did, I would have quoted it. Just because the man has certain other views on the issue, doesn't mean I can't quote and agree with things that he has said that support my position.



I heard what you said. You are attempting to discredit my source because of words of his that I didn't refer to. It's an intellectually dishonest debate tactic. If I had simply rehashed what he had said in my own words, you wouldn't be coming out with all this.



If antinomianism means I believe we are fully sanctified by Grace through faith in Christ and are incapable of adding to that glorious gift that the Lord has imparted on us with our own works then.....I have no need of your prayers friend. I am right where I need to be.

3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the
works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made
perfect by the flesh?

3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh
miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the
hearing of faith?​

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Mikael...Here is your churches own definition of how we get sanctification and what it is:

God in justification imputeth the righteousness of Christ;[2]in sanctification his Spirit infuseth grace, and enableth to the exercise thereof;[3] in the former, sin is pardoned;[4] in the other, it is subdued:[5] the one doth equally free all believers from the revenging wrath of God, and that perfectly in this life, that they never fall into condemnation;[6] the other is neither equal in all,[7] nor in this life perfect in any,[8] but growing up to perfection.[9]

Recap:

Sactification >>

1) Is Grace infused by the spirit
2) ENABLES us to exercise the righteousness of Christ
3) Subdues sin (obviously because of No.2)
4) Is not equal in all people (the verses dont show this really)

Last one needs to be investigated (II Cor. 7:1)

5) Grows up to perfection:

Heres our friend Gill again:

"perfecting holiness in the fear of God; by "holiness" is not meant the work of sanctification upon the heart, for that is wholly the work of the Spirit of God, and not of man; he begins it, carries it on, and perfects it of himself; but holiness of life and conversation is here designed, which in conversion the people of God are called unto, and which highly becomes them: and this they are to be "perfecting"; not that a believer is able to live a life of holiness, without sin being in him, or committed by him; this is in, possible and impracticable in the present life; but the sense of the word is, that he is to be carrying on a course of righteousness and holiness to the end; to the end of his life, he is to persevere as in faith, so in holiness; as he is to go on believing in Christ, so he is to go on to live soberly, righteously, and godly, to the end of his days; which requires divine power to preserve him from sin, and keep him from falling; and the grace of God, the strength of Christ, and the assistance of the Spirit,to enable him to perform acts of holiness, and the several duties of religion, and to continue in well doing: all which is to be done, "in the fear of God";

Where does observance of torah law come into any of that?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Strangelove,

I have no problem with quotes from people that you or I might disagree with on other topics.. I have major problems when one quote is being used to proof a position that the guy in question did not even hold to. You can not read scriptures or even commentaries like a newspaper columns.. They must be read systematically.. The quote by itself that you provided "might" prove your point if that was all John Gill said on the subject but that is not the case.. You can not quote the one quote without the rest of the quotes on that particular subject. John Gill believes in a synergistic view of sanctification which is what I have presented.. In one area he says it is a work of God then he adds elsewhere it is also man's duty. So just quoting the one quote on the subject is taking out of context what John Gill is teaching as a whole on the subject..

Michael

So if I had simply rehashed the quote of his and not attached his name to it what then?

 

[visionary]

Mikael...Here is your churches own definition of how we get sanctification and what it is:



Recap:

Sactification >>

1) Is Grace infused by the spirit
2) ENABLES us to exercise the righteousness of Christ
3) Subdues sin (obviously because of No.2)
4) Is not equal in all people (the verses dont show this really)

Last one needs to be investigated (II Cor. 7:1)

5) Grows up to perfection:

Heres our friend Gill again:

"perfecting holiness in the fear of God; by "holiness" is not meant the work of sanctification upon the heart, for that is wholly the work of the Spirit of God, and not of man; he begins it, carries it on, and perfects it of himself; but holiness of life and conversation is here designed, which in conversion the people of God are called unto, and which highly becomes them: and this they are to be "perfecting"; not that a believer is able to live a life of holiness, without sin being in him, or committed by him; this is in, possible and impracticable in the present life; but the sense of the word is, that he is to be carrying on a course of righteousness and holiness to the end; to the end of his life, he is to persevere as in faith, so in holiness; as he is to go on believing in Christ, so he is to go on to live soberly, righteously, and godly, to the end of his days; which requires divine power to preserve him from sin, and keep him from falling; and the grace of God, the strength of Christ, and the assistance of the Spirit,to enable him to perform acts of holiness, and the several duties of religion, and to continue in well doing: all which is to be done, "in the fear of God";

Where does observance of torah law come into any of that?

Righteously..."so he is to go to live godly, righteously [that is where the observance of torah comes in]... as right living comes by observance of the Law.. it also perserves us from sin.. for if we are living righteously.. we are not sinning, which is breaking the law..... place that in context with what you just quoted and then you will see the LAW OF GOD...applied via Holy Spirit... in our heart..

 

[MikhaelDavid]

Strangelove,

I never said that God did not have a part in our sanctification.. My churches own definition says it is both God and Man...

Grace is infused by the spirit by God
Man is "ENABLED" to exercise the law of Christ which is the Law of God also proven in the first post by my churches catechism and confession. We are enabled to exercise righteousness in Christ by the keeping of Torah.

Q97: What special use is there of the moral law to the regenerate?
A97: Although they that are regenerate, and believe in Christ, be delivered from the moral law as a covenant of works,[1] so as thereby they are neither justified [2] nor condemned;[3] yet, besides the general uses thereof common to them with all men, it is of special use, to show them how much they are bound to Christ for his fulfilling it, and enduring the curse thereof in their stead, and for their good;[4] and thereby to provoke them to more thankfulness,[5] and to express the same in their greater care to conform themselves thereunto as the rule of their obedience.[6]

1. Rom. 6:14; 7:4, 6; Gal. 4:4-5
2. Rom. 3:20
3. Gal. 5:23; Rom. 8:1
4. Rom. 7:24-25; 8:3-4; Gal. 3:13-14
5. Luke 1:68-69, 74-75; Col. 1:12-14
6. Rom. 7:22; 12:2; Titus 2:11-14

Mikael...Here is your churches own definition of how we get sanctification and what it is:



Recap:

Sactification >>

1) Is Grace infused by the spirit
2) ENABLES us to exercise the righteousness of Christ
3) Subdues sin (obviously because of No.2)
4) Is not equal in all people (the verses dont show this really)

Last one needs to be investigated (II Cor. 7:1)

5) Grows up to perfection:

Heres our friend Gill again:

"perfecting holiness in the fear of God; by "holiness" is not meant the work of sanctification upon the heart, for that is wholly the work of the Spirit of God, and not of man; he begins it, carries it on, and perfects it of himself; but holiness of life and conversation is here designed, which in conversion the people of God are called unto, and which highly becomes them: and this they are to be "perfecting"; not that a believer is able to live a life of holiness, without sin being in him, or committed by him; this is in, possible and impracticable in the present life; but the sense of the word is, that he is to be carrying on a course of righteousness and holiness to the end; to the end of his life, he is to persevere as in faith, so in holiness; as he is to go on believing in Christ, so he is to go on to live soberly, righteously, and godly, to the end of his days; which requires divine power to preserve him from sin, and keep him from falling; and the grace of God, the strength of Christ, and the assistance of the Spirit,to enable him to perform acts of holiness, and the several duties of religion, and to continue in well doing: all which is to be done, "in the fear of God";

Where does observance of torah law come into any of that?

 

[MikhaelDavid]

A. A. Hodge said,


"It must be remembered that while the subject is passive with respect to that divine act of grace whereby he is regenerated, after he is regenerated he cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of sanctification. The Holy Ghost gives the grace, and prompts and directs in its exercise, and the soul exercises it. Thus while sanctification is a grace, it is also a duty; and the soul is both bound and encouraged to use with diligence, in dependence upon the Holy Spirit, all the means for its spiritual renovation, and to form those habits resisting evil and of right action in which sanctification so largely consists."

Loraine Boettner said,

"many people confuse regeneration and sanctification. Regeneration is exclusively God's work, and it is an act of His free grace in which He implants a new principle of spiritual life in the soul. It is performed by supernatural power and is complete in an instant. On the other hand, sanctification is a process through which the remains of sin in the outward life are gradually removed . . . It is a joint work of God and man"

R.C. Sproul said,

"The sanctification process is synergistic and it seems the Scriptures would also testify to this. The Scripture itself testifies to a synergistic sanctification when it says "work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Phil 2:12b,13."

[Comment by Me], Paul commands the Philippians to work out their salvation. Only exegetical gymnastics could misunderstand the responsibility the individual has in walking in a manner worthy of his calling (Eph. 4:1).

John Owen in Mortification of Sin said,

"The first is, that the choicest believers, who are assuredly freed from the condemning power of sin, ought yet to make it their business, all their days, to mortify the indwelling power of sin. ...do you mortify; do you make it your daily work' be always at it whilst you live;cease not a day from this work; be killing sin, or it will be killing you. Your being dead with Christ virtually, your being quickened with him, will not excuse you from this work."

What is Sin except violation of Torah, God's law..



To be more precise, perhaps the following can be said...

Justification is solely monergistic, the beginning of sanctification is monergistic, being definitive sanctification with progressive sanctification is synergistic with the regenerated soul co-operating with the work of Christ by His Holy Spirit in the soul.

Michael

 

[visionary]

Let's say God said go stand outside with your mouth open wide to receive your blessing.. and it is pouring rain outside..

The justification in doing this is God said so... faith comes and is revealed by doing
The sanctification comes in the blessings received.. when you by faith do obey... with the cleansing of the word...

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Whatever StrangeLove,

I am done arguing with you since you do not read what is truly being said...

I second that. It's not worth the effort of posting to someone with such a childish mentality, and who purposely misrepresents what we are saying. I'm done with him. Period.




Shalom

 

[visionary]

That is a question I have been asking myself for about a year now. I guess some people refuse to accept the fact that MJ's have already rejected some of the tenets of the Christian faith. Why he thinks the Mj's are going to "see the light" through his words, over Scripture is beyond me. Apparently the truth of our comments struck a nerve with him. Have you seen the latest response? The feeble attempt at self martyrdom, by pulling the "Jewish race card" when not one single word was uttered, nor implied, concerning his ethnicity? How utterly pathetic. Not to mention how insulting it is to be accused of anti-semetism. I have yet to see any anti-semetic feelings in the MJ forum by those of us who post on a regular basis, have you? If anything, we back our Jewish brothers & sisters at every opportunity. I guess some people have no limits as to how low they will stoop. How sad....how sad indeed.



Shalom

Intentions seem to be to disturb the flock.. rather than come to learn what gems God has provided us too bad.. much can be shared when the mind is open..

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Intentions seem to be to disturb the flock.. rather than come to learn what gems God has provided us too bad.. much can be shared when the mind is open..

Yes, it is too bad. As well as disruptive. I completely agree with you, Vis.



Shalom

 

[ContraMundum]

The thing is with you, you do one thing and teach another, some would call that separation and against Paul's teaching of 'one new man', no Jew or Gentile.

I understand what you are saying- why do I feel like I should be doing Jewish things yet teach Gentiles they need not do so? Sounds a bit like Paul, eh?

I honestly think these outward observances are really customary for me, as they neither contribute to salvation nor sanctification, but they may assist in the latter. My contact with mainstream MJism is that they would concur.

 

[ContraMundum]

That is a question I have been asking myself for about a year now. I guess some people refuse to accept the fact that MJ's have already rejected some of the tenets of the Christian faith. Why he thinks the Mj's are going to "see the light" through his words, over Scripture is beyond me. Apparently the truth of our comments struck a nerve with him. Have you seen the latest response? The feeble attempt at self martyrdom, by pulling the "Jewish race card" when not one single word was uttered, nor implied, concerning his ethnicity? How utterly pathetic. Not to mention how insulting it is to be accused of anti-semetism. I have yet to see any anti-semetic feelings in the MJ forum by those of us who post on a regular basis, have you? If anything, we back our Jewish brothers & sisters at every opportunity. I guess some people have no limits as to how low they will stoop. How sad....how sad indeed.



Shalom

You always have to make it personal. You do not understand me at all.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Righteously..."so he is to go to live godly, righteously [that is where the observance of torah comes in]... as right living comes by observance of the Law.. it also perserves us from sin.. for if we are living righteously.. we are not sinning, which is breaking the law..... place that in context with what you just quoted and then you will see the LAW OF GOD...applied via Holy Spirit... in our heart..

Ok I think we can see some agreement here visionary.

We are enabled to live righteous lives by total sanctification by the Holy Spirit through Grace by faith in the Messiah.

For you, it enables you to observe torah law.

For me, it enables me to simply love my neighbour and God.

Neither of us is more Holy than the other because our works cannot add to the Holiness that God has given us. We just choose to express that Holiness in different ways. And we are both actively repenting against sin and are attempting to keep to God's moral standards, but in slightly different ways.

Ok?

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

We are enabled to exercise righteousness in Christ by the keeping of Torah.

So if we reword this sentence:

Keeping the torah enables us to exercise righteousness in Christ.

But your church says:

Sactification infused by Grace enables us to exercise righteousness in Christ. (which for you personally is keeping the torah)

So again, you are contradicting your own church my friend.

Q97: What special use is there of the moral law to the regenerate?
A97: Although they that are regenerate, and believe in Christ, be delivered from the moral law as a covenant of works,[1] so as thereby they are neither justified [2] nor condemned;[3] yet, besides the general uses thereof common to them with all men, it is of special use, to show them how much they are bound to Christ for his fulfilling it, and enduring the curse thereof in their stead, and for their good;[4] and thereby to provoke them to more thankfulness,[5] and to express the same in their greater care to conform themselves thereunto as the rule of their obedience.[6]

See here again your church says that we are delivered from moral law as a covenant of works!

The special use of the moral law that it goes on to describe is the Holy Spirit working IN US to bring about sanctification without our actual works being involved in it.

It's quite clearly upholding mine and the rest of the people in this threads arguments.

 

[ContraMundum]

Intentions seem to be to disturb the flock.. rather than come to learn what gems God has provided us too bad.. much can be shared when the mind is open..

That's terribly unfair and unnecessary. Better suited for pm's.

 

[MikhaelDavid]

Ah No... exercise righteousness in Christ MEANS for US obeying the law But we only DO that when the Spirit infuses US first....

You are taking what YOU think "exercise righteousness in Christ" means and running with it.. My church is Reformed and Puritan and I have 400 years of their writings to KNOW what it means and like the quotes I provided you is what the church's confession mean..

exercise righteousness in Christ means law keeping, and law keeping means Torah keeping.

I have already states that we are released from the Covenant of Works for condemnation and curse but not free from keeping the law.. That is what question 97 of that catechism is teaching... That Spirit of God works or co-operates in sanctification with man.

You are pulling PARTS of the Catechism and DISCARDING the rest... You only seem to see what YOU want to see.. Read the rest of the question 97, such as "to conform themselves thereunto as the rule of their obedience."

Michael

So if we reword this sentence:

Keeping the torah enables us to exercise righteousness in Christ.

But your church says:

Sactification infused by Grace enables us to exercise righteousness in Christ. (which for you personally is keeping the torah)

So again, you are contradicting your own church my friend.



See here again your church says that we are delivered from moral law as a covenant of works!

The special use of the moral law that it goes on to describe is the Holy Spirit working IN US to bring about sanctification without our actual works being involved in it.

It's quite clearly upholding mine and the rest of the people in this threads arguments.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Ah No... exercise righteousness in Christ MEANS for US obeying the law But we only DO that when the Spirit infuses US first....

Oops you forgot to finish your sentence, Here I'll do it for you:

......with sanctification.

So we see the order is:

Sanctification >>> enables us to exercise righteousness >>> upholding God's moral standards (by nature, or if you wish..by observance of torah law)

 

[MikhaelDavid]

StrangeLove,

Tell me... IF you think my church's catechism is teaching that we are not to keep the laws of Torah and that we are not sanctified by such tell me then why the same catechism goes into HOW we obey the laws of torah... And it goes from Questions 92 through Questions 153. What is the point to say what is "ARE DUTIES" and what are "THE SINS" if it is only the Spirit of God that gives us Sanctification and Preserving to Obey anything if what is true with what you say...

I will give you an example such as all that goes into the Second Commandment stated below...


Q108: What are the duties required in the second commandment?
A108: The duties required in the second commandment are, the receiving, observing, and keeping pure and entire, all such religious worship and ordinances as God hath instituted in his word;[1] particularly prayer and thanksgiving in the name of Christ;[2] the reading, preaching, and hearing of the word;[3] the administration and receiving of the sacraments;[4] church government and discipline;[5] the ministry and maintenance thereof;[6] religious fasting;[7] swearing by the name of God,[8] and vowing unto him:[9] as also the disapproving, detesting, opposing, all false worship;[10] and, according to each one's place and calling, removing it, and all monuments of idolatry.[11]

1. Deut. 32:46-47; Matt. 28:30; Acts 2:42; I Tim. 6:13-14
2. Phil. 4:6; Eph. 5:20
3. Deut. 17:18-19; Acts 10:88; 15:21; II Tim. 4:2; James 1:21-22
4. Matt. 28:19; I Cor. 11:23-30
5. Matt. 16:19; 18:15-17; I Cor. ch. 5; 12:28
6. Eph. 4:11-12; I Tim. 5:17-18; I Cor. 9:1-15
7. Joel 2:12-13; I Cor. 7:5
8. Deut. 6:13
9. Isa. 19:21; Psa. 76:11
10. Acts 17:16-17; Psa. 16:4
11. Deut. 7:5; Isa. 30:22

Q109: What are the sins forbidden in the second commandment?
A109: The sins forbidden in the second commandment are, all devising,[1] counseling,[2] commanding,[3] using,[4] and anywise approving, any religious worship not instituted by God himself;[5] tolerating a false religion;[6] the making any representation of God, of all or of any of the three persons, either inwardly in our mind, or outwardly in any kind of image or likeness of any creature whatsoever;[7] all worshiping of it,[8] or God in it or by it;[9] the making of any representation of feigned deities,[10] and all worship of them, or service belonging to them;[11] all superstitious devices,[12] corrupting the worship of God,[13] adding to it, or taking from it,[14] whether invented and taken up of ourselves,[15] or received by tradition from others,[16] though under the title of antiquity,[17] custom,[18] devotion,[19] good intent, or any other pretense whatsoever;[20] simony;[21] sacrilege;[22] all neglect,[23] contempt,[24] hindering,[25] and opposing the worship and ordinances which God hath appointed.[26]

1. Num. 15:39
2. Deut. 13:6-8
3. Hosea 5:11; Micah 6:16
4. I Kings 11:33; 12:33
5. Deut. 12:30-32
6. Deut. 13:6-12; Zech. 13:2-3; Rev. 2:2, 14-15, 20, Rev. 17:12, 16-17
7. Deut. 4:15-19; Acts 17:29; Rom. 1:21-23, 25
8. Dan. 3:18; Gal. 4:8
9. Exod. 32:5
10. Exod. 32:8
11. I Kings 18:26, 28; Isa. 65:11
12. Acts 17:22; Col. 2:21-23
13. Mal. 1:7-8, 14
14. Deut. 4:2
15. Psa. 106:39
16. Matt. 15:9
17. I Peter 1:18
18. Jer. 44:17
19. Isa. 65:3-5; Gal. 1:13-14
20. I Sam. 13:11-12; 15:21
21. Acts 8:18
22. Rom. 2:22; Mal. 3:8
23. Exod. 4:24-26
24. Matt. 22:5; Mal. 1:7, 13
25. Matt. 23:13
26. Acts 13:44-45; I Thess. 2:15-16​

 

[MikhaelDavid]

No, I have already said that Sanctification is synergistic.. God Justifies by infusing us with grace then God and Man works together to work out the sanctification... If you would like, Progressive Sanctification...

By nature is the laws of moses... period... There is no law apart from God's law...

Michael

Oops you forgot to finish your sentence, Here I'll do it for you:

......with sanctification.

So we see the order is:

Sanctification >>> enables us to exercise righteousness >>> upholding God's moral standards (by nature, or if you wish..by observance of torah law)