Sanctification by Works

[ContraMundum]

For anyone that is interested... One very good book on Sanctification/Holiness comes from Anglican Bishop J.C. Ryle called "Holiness".

There are of course points I might disagree with him here and there in the book but a great book on striving for and pursuing Sanctification (Holiness).

I just thought I might mention it for those certain Anglican people, *wink wink* at Contra... Though I recommend the book for all..

Michael

Yeah, he rocks.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

I think you need to read my post again.

The law cannot save

Sure it can! Obediance to the Torah does indeed save us

Nuff said?

 

[Desert Rose]

Anglican Bishop J.C. Ryle called "Holiness".

I also found an extensive sermon by him called Holiness, but you talking about the book, right- this one?
Amazon.com: Holiness: Its Nature, Hindrances, Difficulties, and Roots (9781598562224): J. C. Ryle: Books

 

[MikhaelDavid]

Whatever StrangeLove,

I am done arguing with you since you do not read what is truly being said... You claim that you have proven your point by using the writings of John Gill and I prove you wrong by quoting the rest of John Gill and what he meant but you still deny that. John Gill said, Natural Law is the Law of Moses, Believers are to obey them as a rule of walk/life as part of our sanctification, etc.. You can take no refuge in John Gill.. I have provided amble scriptures but instead you ignore them and claim that I have not provided any evidence or even single verse.. Christ whole sermon in Matthew 5 was expounding on the Law of Moses, "You have heard it said" but I tell you that you are not doing such and such unless you not only do the outward element of the law but the internal element of the law. As John Gill puts it, You can not separate the Law of Moses from the Law of Nature, it is the samething. To love God with all your heart, mind and soul and love your neighbor as yourself is ONLY done through the keeping of the law. The law is Love, and Love is the law and that is why Christ summarized the law into the two commandments because that is what the law does..

I do not mind debating at all.. I love to debate for it is "iron sharpening iron" and strengthens us but when what one says just "flys by" without hearing what is being said then it is time to fold up camp.

I will pray for you.. For Antinomianism is a dangerous ground and I pray you will come out of that mindset...

Michael

Yes I can....and I have. I've noticed your posts consist of many words but little substance. You still cant produce a single verse regarding believers in the Messiah that say obsreving torah law brings sanctification. And no wonder. If you could then it would mean Christ's sacrifice was in vain.

 

[MikhaelDavid]

Desert Rose,

Yeah, that looks like the right book.. It is a great book that shows our duty to pursue holiness...

Michael

I also found an extensive sermon by him called Holiness, but you talking about the book, right- this one?
Amazon.com: Holiness: Its Nature, Hindrances, Difficulties, and Roots (9781598562224): J. C. Ryle: Books

 

[visionary]

I believe it might be helpful as to what you think sanctification intails and what it is..

 

[Desert Rose]

thanks, i will get it. I always find the subject fascinating. Its a very complicated matter, for sanctification is a holy-fication, so to speak, of a sinful person in a sinful environment of a fallen world

Its hard process ,and way too many fall into a trap of religious deception of "more religious person " = "more saintly" On a national level sanctification is even more complicated, for , paradoxically, strict laws against sin produce less sanctification in people,not more . Theocracy is evil, but secular democracy is a much better way in creating godlier society.

Very interesting topic...

 

[MikhaelDavid]

Desert Rose,

On the issue of Theo-Nomy (God's Law) vs. Secular Democracy I would suggest another book after Ryle Holiness Book.. Ryle speaks of personal sanctification as this other book will go into National Sanctification and the Third Use of God law..

The book is titled "By This Standard" by Greg Bahnsen

But to clarify governmental positions..

Theocracy is a misnomer because it entails God's Rule in Person (Which is not possible until Christ returns)

Ecclesiocracy would be a rule by the Ecclesia, the Church over the State with Church Ministers lifting up the sword.. (Example would be Rome during the Middle Ages)

Theonomy is the rule by God's Laws through Civil Ministers (Magistrates) and those laws are found in the Judicial Case Laws in the Torah. Separation of sphere authority is maintained. Priest do not lift up the sword and Magistrates do not have authority over the church nor preach. But both spheres are held in check by God's law. National Israel in the Old Testament was not a Theocracy but a Theonomic State. Example of sphere authority would be like God' punishing King Uzziah for doing the Priests job even if it was by mistake. There are many more examples..

Secular Democracy is Autonomy from God which is a view that national governments are free from the laws of God and have no accountability to God which "normatively" leads to Salvation by the State view such as Rome and Greece did after being a Secular Democracy in ancient times. It also says that God is not over the nations and that those nations free themselves from God.

One more type of government I will mention is,

Erastianism which is the opposite of Ecclesiocracy.. In this view the state has authority over the church.. Example of this would be the "King of England", Defender of the Faith and head of the Church. So the Church of England has been historically under Erastianism.


I believe that Theonomy is the one scripture teaches and is the more balanced view..

Michael



http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt...&p=definition+of+ecclesiology&rs=0&fr2=rs-top

thanks, i will get it. I always find the subject fascinating. Its a very complicated matter, for sanctification is a holy-fication, so to speak, of a sinful person in a sinful environment of a fallen world

Its hard process ,and way too many fall into a trap of religious deception of "more religious person " = "more saintly" On a national level sanctification is even more complicated, for , paradoxically, strict laws against sin produce less sanctification in people,not more . Theocracy is evil, but secular democracy is a much better way in creating godlier society.

Very interesting topic...

 

[Lulav]

Abraham and the Apostles came unto Him by first being regenerated and drawn by the Father..

Yes He gave blessings and curses and for those who are lost in unbelief will be curses.. Man has no excuse but man is also held in bondage to sin and to their Master Satan and can not come unto the Father until the Father draws him (those are the words of Yeshua). Man held in bondage is called by the law to repent, the law is first a tutor to the unbelievers but man will never seek God because of Sin and we are told that in Psalm 53 "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." It says No one seeks God and no one does good.. So it is God who draws the sinner and regenerates them first to obedience..

Paul said the same thing quoting from Psalm 53 in Romans 3:10-12 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."


Regeneration First, Repentance Second, and Obedience Third.. The Spirit dwells within by being Sent by the Father so that the person will be free from sin and set at liberty to obey the Son.

Michael

P.S. This is my last post on this subject just because it is off topic with the thread.. I do not want to further derail the thread.. If one wants to talk about Salvation, Drawing of the Father to the Son, Election, and how we are saved, etc, We can start another thread..

This thread is about sanctification by works. I was keeping on topic so shall continue.

Using Paul to justify this faith alone doesn't work with me. Let's read the Psalm in context, shall we?

You purposely skipped verse 2 which shows us the context, just like Paul did, using it out of context to 'prove' his theology.

Ps 53 Verse 2

The fool hath said in his heart: 'There is no God';
they have dealt corruptly, and have done abominable iniquity; there is none that doeth good.

That is who he is speaking of, the one that denies G-d.

Verse 3.God looked forth from heaven upon the children of men,
to see if there were any man of understanding, that did seek after God.

'The children of men' is not used of his people Israel, when he refers to them as children it is 'the children of Israel' not men . This is further seen in the following verses.

Verse 4

Every one of them is unclean, they are together become impure; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

'Every one' are the ones that deny G-ds existence.

If we stop here then a case can still be made fro Paul's agenda, but we must continue because there is more.

Verse 5

'Shall not the workers of iniquity know it, who eat up My people as they eat bread, and call not upon God?'

'Workers of iniguity' - idolatry, wickedness

'MY PEOPLE' this totally defines that this psalm is not speaking of mankind as a whole. When HaShem says 'my people' he is not speaking of the heathen.

Verse 6

There are they in great fear, where no fear was;
for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee; Thou hast put them to shame, because God hath rejected them.

Again we see he is making a separation when he speaks about those encamping against them (the them or 'thee' are "my people'). He continues to say that his people have put them to shame and G-d has rejected them.

Last verse

Verse 7

Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion!
When God turneth the captivity of His people, let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

To me this seems like an 'end of days' psalm. Especially when combined with other prophetic works of scripture that speak of the end of days where there is but a small remnant that worship the one True G-d.

Either way even if about the exile times this still does not speak of everyone doing evil and none being righteous, no not one.

As far as this?

Abraham and the Apostles came unto Him by first being regenerated and drawn by the Father..

So you are saying that Yeshua had no true followers, they did not make a choice to follow him, but instead they were just puppets the Father made for him to give him a posse?

 

[Lulav]

Lulav, I too disagree with what Michael is propossing. However, I wanted to point something out concerning the above comment. Some Rabbi's teach that the Sinai mountain was actually, and literally held over their heads on that occasion. That would kind of "help the decision along" don't you think?

Just thought I would throw that in there for good measure.



Shalom

I doubt that Michael will use a Rabbi's teaching to support his position. And as far as it goes, it is only an opinion, myself doubt that we were forced into agreement, I mean what good would that be? I don't believe that HaShem makes forced marriages. To love someone against your will is not love at all.

 

[Lulav]

We have an accord.

 

[Lulav]

To explain the verse, it says:

Gal 3:1 ῏Ω ἀνόητοι Γαλάται, τίς ὑμᾶς ἐβάσκανε τῇ ἀληθείᾳ μὴ πείθεσθε, οἷς κατ᾿ ὀφθαλμοὺς ᾿Ιησοῦς Χριστὸς προεγράφη ἐν ὑμῖν ἐσταυρωμένος;

Literally:

O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you to not obey the truth, to whom before your eyes Jesus Christ was written before among you crucified?

It is about the presentation to the Galatians of the crucifixion of Jesus.

The Good News Bible makes it easy in more modern language:

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who put a spell on you? Before your very eyes you had a clear description of the death of Jesus Christ on the cross!

I hope this helps clear your question up a little.

Yes, the GNB is clearer. But I still don't understand how the two things mesh.

He is using the 'before your eyes' and 'was written'. To me that adds no emphasis to the matter. Just because he wrote about this to them (apparently before, but we aren't told he wrote to them before are we?) how does that serve as them seeing it for themselves?

It makes me wonder why Paul is so consumed with the cross and the death of Yeshua much more than his resurrection. He only speaks of preaching the resurrection when his tail is on the line.

To me the resurrection is much more than the cross, especially when thousands of Jews were hung on the crosses by Romans. That in itself is not exceptional, not at all. But the resurrection that is and entirely different story, is it not?

I don't want to derail, so I'll start another thread and link back here. Thanks CM!

 

[Lulav]

Mod Hat On :

Hey guys this isnt the theology forum so its not a place to teach/campaign against established MJ teaching.... just saying..... so if that is your goal change it ok?

Questions are alright, if your looking for a place to call home and it seems a good fit being here then awesome stay and ask away, but if your only here to teach these good folks a lesson in how wrong they are, please dont do that anymore ok?

Mod Hat Off

Don't ya just love this lady? She can do the sweetest mod hats of anyone I've ever seen. If only the rest of the mods followed suit.

Love ya Tish!

 

[Lulav]

DBY- while you might applaud the comment, you forget that I rest on the Sabbath, follow the rules of kashrus as best I can, remember the Moedim, and even wear tzitzis under my shirt. I have done since boyhood. It's my thing. I do not preach that Christians are obligated under the pain of sin to do likewise- this is the difference between me and vis and others, and oddly I am the one inline with mainstream MJism, and you guys are not.

This is the irony of it all. I have non-Jewish people telling me I am obligated to keep laws they they are not obligated to keep, and then I get former Christians like yourself applauding these same non-Jews because to people like yourself I am not Jewish enough! Very judgmental.

Funny how everyone thinks we Jews are obligated to act according to their beliefs about us.

We are not your hobby.

CM, I'm sure you have been here long enough to know that there are at least 3 camps in MJ, one is the one law (Torah law for everyone, Jew and Gentile) and the other more popular, what you call 'mainstream' is the love law. There is also the two-law (one for Jews, one for Gentiles).

The thing is with you, you do one thing and teach another, some would call that separation and against Paul's teaching of 'one new man', no Jew or Gentile.

ETA: It seems that the minority are the ones that seek to explore their beliefs and seek out similar minds and souls, these are those you usually find coming to forums like this, and are the ones that stick around because they can't find ones in their congregations that are the same. Most in MJ congregations are Gentiles looking to do things 'Jewish' while keeping their Christian ways, makes them feel good about themselves. This is where they should be called Messianic only as Judaism to them is far from their goal.

 

[MikhaelDavid]

Lulav,

I think we are talking past each other... I separate Justification from Sanctification.. The issue you are discussion is Justification... The topic of the thread is Sanctification, and I agree with you that we are to keep the law for this...

Psalm 53 is proving my point... The one who says there is no God are all unbelievers and it is because they are in bondage to sin that they remain as unbelievers and nothing that unbelievers do can be counted towards him as good.

Salvation comes to man only through God.. "My People" are those who have already been drawn by the Father and regenerated.

When we are called and regenerated by the Father through the Spirit we no longer have that bondage.. We are free to choice to Obey the Son or to Disobey Him and face penalties.. It states this in Psalm 89 "If His [Yeshua] children [believers] forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. "

So we are given a choice to keep His laws or face the rod.. But before the Spirit regenerates us and allows us to believe in Yeshua we do not have that choice..

Remember it was God who first called Abraham then Abraham obeyed.. Abraham did not seek God first, it was God who sought Abraham out and imbued him with the Spirit to allow Faith. Then Abraham obeyed the laws of God and sometimes disobeyed the laws of God like when he lied about his wife.

So those who follow Yeshua and obey His commands are those who are past-tensed regenerated by the Spirit from the Father's drawing...

We can not believe without the Father but those who do believe and obey are those who were drawn by the Father to the Son and given a free will to obey the Sons Commandments (Torah)...

Michael

This thread is about sanctification by works. I was keeping on topic so shall continue.

Using Paul to justify this faith alone doesn't work with me. Let's read the Psalm in context, shall we?

You purposely skipped verse 2 which shows us the context, just like Paul did, using it out of context to 'prove' his theology.

Ps 53 Verse 2

That is who he is speaking of, the one that denies G-d.



'The children of men' is not used of his people Israel, when he refers to them as children it is 'the children of Israel' not men . This is further seen in the following verses.

Verse 4

'Every one' are the ones that deny G-ds existence.

If we stop here then a case can still be made fro Paul's agenda, but we must continue because there is more.

Verse 5

'Workers of iniguity' - idolatry, wickedness

'MY PEOPLE' this totally defines that this psalm is not speaking of mankind as a whole. When HaShem says 'my people' he is not speaking of the heathen.

Verse 6

Again we see he is making a separation when he speaks about those encamping against them (the them or 'thee' are "my people'). He continues to say that his people have put them to shame and G-d has rejected them.

Last verse

Verse 7

To me this seems like an 'end of days' psalm. Especially when combined with other prophetic works of scripture that speak of the end of days where there is but a small remnant that worship the one True G-d.

Either way even if about the exile times this still does not speak of everyone doing evil and none being righteous, no not one.

As far as this?

So you are saying that Yeshua had no true followers, they did not make a choice to follow him, but instead they were just puppets the Father made for him to give him a posse?

 

[Lulav]

See.....this is the kind of views I was hoping to fellowhip with in this subforum.

I wanted to talk to real Jews who appreciated their ancestory, their forefathers customs, and history and who even still follow the laws of the Hebrews. I got no problem with reading the torah and following certain laws therein.

But the difference between Contra and the rest of you guys is that he knows what Jesus Christ came here to do. He knows the deep meaning of the sacrifice that God gave for our sins and the total substitutionary atonement that all those who believe can recieve.

God....made....Christ....SIN....so that we...be.....made....RIGHTEOUS.

It is not OUR righteousness that we have it is HIS. And ONLY His. There is no man who is righteous. No, not one.

I think its fantastic that some people like to hold to certain torah laws. If it makes you feel closer to God then bless you for doing that. But it doesn't make you more sinless or more righteous or holy than any of us who dont choose to do that.

There is nothing we can add to what God has done. Nothing.

Then to answer your title post in another thread, you aren't in the right place.

This is a forum, a congregational forum. But there is a sub forum at the top which is called Messianic Hebrew Christian Forum, that seems to be the place for you for what you wish to discuss.

It is not OUR righteousness that we have it is HIS. And ONLY His. There is no man who is righteous. No, not one.

See my response to MikaelDavid on this very topic. Please read the Ps 53 in full. It is always best when someone is teaching using the Torah or Prophets and writings to double check and make sure that they aren't taking it out of context. Paul does this all the time.

 

[MikhaelDavid]

I use alot of Rabbi's to support my position.. (though I do not take them infallibly)..

Let see, Rabbi Luther, Rabbi Calvin, Rabbi Bucer, Rabbi Beza, Rabbi Henry, etc..

They all teach what I have been saying... It is not a personal opinion but an orthodox belief.. Even set in Ecumenical Confession, the Canons of the Synod of Dort of 1619..



Michael

I doubt that Michael will use a Rabbi's teaching to support his position. And as far as it goes, it is only an opinion, myself doubt that we were forced into agreement, I mean what good would that be? I don't believe that HaShem makes forced marriages. To love someone against your will is not love at all.

 

[Lulav]

Lulav,

I think we are talking past each other... I separate Justification from Sanctification.. The issue you are discussion is Justification... The topic of the thread is Sanctification, and I agree with you that we are to keep the law for this...



Michael

Hi Michael.

I don't understand why you think that Justification and Sanctification are so different? The word Sanctify comes from Kadosh, it means separation. This can be seen in that psalm. HaShem took for himself a people, they were not perfect and he knew that. He didn't automatically make them so either. He wanted them to choose him and to follow him and to love him. This same word is used for 'holy'. It just means separate, like G-d is Holy , he is separate from us. But Sanctification is separating us out from others.

The seventh day was sanctified , set apart from the rest of the six days.

Sanctification comes from washing (mikvah)

Justification means righteousness. You really can't have one without the other. You become righteous by separation.

 

[Lulav]

Lulav,
Psalm 53 is proving my point... The one who says there is no God are all unbelievers and it is because they are in bondage to sin that they remain as unbelievers and nothing that unbelievers do can be counted towards him as good.

It is only proving your point because you are misunderstanding it. You quoted from Romans, thus using Paul's understand and mis representation of the scripture. He says that there are NONE righteous, I showed you that he misused this and out of context. Those that believed in HaShem and followed his teachings ARE seen as Righteous and they are Sanctified by this.

Salvation comes to man only through God.. "My People" are those who have already been drawn by the Father and regenerated.

NO, he was speaking to Israel.

When we are called and regenerated by the Father through the Spirit we no longer have that bondage.. We are free to choice to Obey the Son or to Disobey Him and face penalties.. It states this in Psalm 89 "If His [Yeshua] children [believers] forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments; If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments; Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes. "

He is speaking of Davids children.

So we are given a choice to keep His laws or face the rod.. But before the Spirit regenerates us and allows us to believe in Yeshua we do not have that choice..

So you are saying we have no choice until he gives us the ability to have one? When was the free will taken away from us? What you are saying is that our free will was taken away so that we could wallow in sin and have no way out unless G-d wanted to grant us that right and he only grants it to some. Isn't that part of Calvinism?

Remember it was God who first called Abraham then Abraham obeyed.. Abraham did not seek God first, it was God who sought Abraham out and imbued him with the Spirit to allow Faith. Then Abraham obeyed the laws of God and sometimes disobeyed the laws of God like when he lied about his wife.

He called him for a specific purpose. Abraham had the choice to take him up on it or not.

Abraham did not lie about his wife, there was no disobedience involved here, if you see some please provide scripture to back it up.

So those who follow Yeshua and obey His commands are those who are past-tensed regenerated by the Spirit from the Father's drawing...

We can not believe without the Father but those who do believe and obey are those who were drawn by the Father to the Son and given a free will to obey the Sons Commandments (Torah)...

Michael

Past-tensed regenerated?

From my understanding of 'regenerated' it means to return to former state (restoration) . HaShem repeatedly in the Prophets says, return to me. If he could make this happen, then why didn't he? Because it was a choice. He is a husband and he loves his wife, he wants her to return to him of her own choice. In Hebrew it is teshuvah, to return. The Torah and prophets are full of it.

 

[MikhaelDavid]

I totally agree with you about not having the one without the other... But one must come first then the other second in sequential order.. But you don't become righteous by sanctification or separation. But you can not be sanctify without Justification (righteousness). But neither can one have Justification by itself for it will outflow into Sanctification..

So Justification and Sanctification are different but linked..

My Church's Catechism says the follow in the Westminster Larger Catechism:

Q77: Wherein do justification and sanctification differ?
A77: Although sanctification be inseparably joined with justification,[1] yet they differ, in that God in justification imputeth the righteousness of Christ;[2] in sanctification his Spirit infuseth grace, and enableth to the exercise thereof;[3] in the former, sin is pardoned;[4] in the other, it is subdued:[5] the one doth equally free all believers from the revenging wrath of God, and that perfectly in this life, that they never fall into condemnation;[6] the other is neither equal in all,[7] nor in this life perfect in any,[8] but growing up to perfection.[9]

1. I Cor. 1:30; 6:11
2. Rom. 4:6, 8
3. Ezek. 36:27
4. Rom. 3:24-25
5. Rom. 6:6, 14
6. Rom. 8:33-34
7. I John 2:12-14; Heb. 5:12-14
8. I John 1:8, 10
9. II Cor. 7:1; Phil 3:12-14


Michael

Hi Michael.

I don't understand why you think that Justification and Sanctification are so different? The word Sanctify comes from Kadosh, it means separation. This can be seen in that psalm. HaShem took for himself a people, they were not perfect and he knew that. He didn't automatically make them so either. He wanted them to choose him and to follow him and to love him. This same word is used for 'holy'. It just means separate, like G-d is Holy , he is separate from us. But Sanctification is separating us out from others.

The seventh day was sanctified , set apart from the rest of the six days.

Sanctification comes from washing (mikvah)

Justification means righteousness. You really can't have one without the other. You become righteous by separation.