Sanctification by Works

[visionary]

Sanctification does not come from the Law of Moses..

That is basic...

DO you even know ..
The Law of God comes from God
The law of Moses [written on parchment] comes from God
Sanctification which comes from God
Grace which comes from God
Mercy which comes from God
Justification which comes from God
Righteousness which comes from God

Non of these things are in us unless God puts it there..

 

[MikhaelDavid]

Strangelove,

Like scripture, you are taking John Gill out of context.. I know John Gill.. I loved John Gill when I was a Reformed Baptist and still use his works... I know him pretty much by heart... John Gill even went as far as confirm the Judicial Codes along with the Penal Codes of the Judicial Laws of Moses for all governments in all times..

Take the following from John Gill's Body of Divinity which is his systematic theology that the commentary is to walk hand in hand with...

"There was the law of nature, inscribed on his heart by his Maker, as the rule of his obedience to him; and by which he knew much of God, and of the nature of moral good and evil; and which; though much obliterated by the fall, some remains of it are to be discerned in Adam's posterity; and even in the Gentiles, "Rom 1:19,20 2:14,15" and which is reinscribed in the hearts of God's people in regeneration, according to the tenor of the covenant of grace, "Jer 31:33". Now the law of Moses, for matter and substance, is the same with the law of nature, and this was renewed in the times of Moses, that it might be confirmed, and that it might not be forgotten, and be wholly lost out of the minds of men.


Secondly, The epithets of this law, or the properties of it, may be next considered; such as the scriptures expressly give to it; and which will lead into the nature and quality of it. As,


The law is "holy"; so it is said to be, "Rom 7:12" and the commandment holy; it comes from an holy God, from whom nothing unholy can proceed; for holiness is his nature, and he is holy in all his works; and the law is a transcript of his holy will; the matter of it, or what it requires, is holy; even sanctification of heart and life; and it directs to live holily, soberly, righteously, and godly, in this evil world.


Thirdly, The uses of the law both to sinners and saints.


It is of use to saints and true believers in Christ.


To be a rule of life and conversation to them; not a rule to obtain life by; but to live according to; to guide their feet, to direct their steps, and preserve them from going into bye and crooked paths. The wise man says, "The commandment is a lamp, and the law is light", "Prov 6:23". And the wise man's father says, "Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path", "Pslam 119:105"."


The law of God continues under the present dispensation for the said uses; Christ came not to destroy it, and loosen mens obligations to it; but to fulfil it: nor is the law made null and void by faith; by the doctrine of justification by faith in the righteousness of Christ; so far from it, that it is established by it {1}: there is a sense in which the law is "done away", and saints are "delivered" from it; "that being dead wherein they were held", as in a prison; and they "become dead to it by the body of Christ", by his obedience and sufferings in it,2Co 3:11 Ro 7:4,6".


It continues as a rule of walk and conversation to them, as before observed; and is to be regarded by them as in the hands of Christ {2}; by whom it is held forth as King and Lawgiver." (End of John Gill Quotes)



Rule of walk is Rule of Life and is Sanctification/Holiness.. All the same language...


Christ did not destroy the Law or the Prophets, Matthew 5. On this issue the words of our Lord are definitive and clear in Matthew 5:17-19. Jesus declared that he did not come to abrogate the Old Testament Law and Prophets, but to give them their full measure. John Murray wrote that Jesus' "fulfillment" of the law "refers to the function of validating and confirming the law and the prophets" (Principles of Conduct, p. 150). With respect to the Old Testament's moral standards, Jesus went on to insist that until the end of the physical cosmos, not the slightest stroke of the law will pass away.

"Therefore whoever shall break one of these least commandments and teach men so shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven." Jesus confirmed the validity of the law, even down to its least commandment, and censures anyone who dares to teach otherwise (without authorization from the Lawgiver Himself). New Testament Christians must operate on the presumption of continuity with the Old Testament moral code.

So you can not use John Gill to try to prove your point....

12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: ​

If that verse said 'pursue sanctification by obeying the Law of Moses'.....then you might have a case.

Gills Exposition handles this with minimum fuss:

and holiness: this being added to peace, shows that peace is no further to be followed than is consistent with holiness; and holiness here does not design any particular branch of holiness, as chastity of the body and mind, but the whole of holiness, inward and outward; and intends true holiness, in opposition to ceremonial holiness, which the Hebrews were fond of, and pursued after: it means even perfect holiness; for though holiness is not perfect in this life, yet it will be in heaven; and there is a perfection of it in Christ; and it is to be followed after, by going to Christ for more grace, and exercising faith upon him, as our sanctification; and by eager desires that the Spirit of God would sanctify us more and more, and enable us, by his grace and strength, to walk in the way of holiness, till we get safe to heaven:



Again no mention of torah law. By faith we gain Grace and do not fall short and THEREFORE there be no immoral among us.

G'night folks.

 

[MikhaelDavid]

For anyone that is interested... One very good book on Sanctification/Holiness comes from Anglican Bishop J.C. Ryle called "Holiness".

There are of course points I might disagree with him here and there in the book but a great book on striving for and pursuing Sanctification (Holiness).

I just thought I might mention it for those certain Anglican people, *wink wink* at Contra... Though I recommend the book for all..

Michael

 

[David Ben Yosef]

None of these things are in us unless God puts it there..

Even our faith is a gift from HaShem [1Cor 12:9]. I don't think mankind is even close to being aware of how completely and utterly dependant upon G-d we really are. We cannot even begin to fully comprehend just how much HaShem is in control of everything. And I mean EVERYTHING!



Shalom

 

[Lulav]

so we have no free will to choose?

 

[Tishri1]

Mod Hat On :

Hey guys this isnt the theology forum so its not a place to teach/campaign against established MJ teaching.... just saying..... so if that is your goal change it ok?

Questions are alright, if your looking for a place to call home and it seems a good fit being here then awesome stay and ask away, but if your only here to teach these good folks a lesson in how wrong they are, please dont do that anymore ok?

Mod Hat Off

 

[MikhaelDavid]

Lulav,

No, we have no free will while we are in bondage to sin.. But when we are regenerated then we have a free will to do the will of the Father..

I know that you don't like Paul.. I have no problem with Paul or his teaching as I believe them to be in sink with Yeshua and His teaching.. I believe too many people misinterpret Paul and what he is saying..

With that said, instead of a quote from Paul I am going to provide a quote from Yeshua himself for you...

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

So Yeshua is saying that while we are unregenerated and in bondage to sin, no man will come to Him.. We must be freed from that bondage of sin through the regeneration by the Spirit of God which is sent by the Father to draw the person to Yeshua and to obedience.. But the person must be drawn by the Father first...

This is in sink with what Paul tells us elsewhere...

Anyway freedom of will only comes through Yeshua as it says in Psalm 119:45, "[FONT=Times New Roman, Times] [/FONT]And I will walk at liberty for I seek thy precepts[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]."[/FONT] and that only happens when He enlarges our hearts as said in Psalm 119:32 "I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart." and then He, Yeshua, will teach us the way of His statues so that we shall keep it unto the end, in Psalm 119:33 "Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end. "

Michael

so we have no free will to choose?

 

[David Ben Yosef]

so we have no free will to choose?

Of course we do. I would never suggest such a thing, Sis. HaShem can still be completely in control, while allowing us to exercise our freewill. I don't think it's that difficult of a concept to grasp. The concept of divine intervention would fall into this category. He allows us to make poor choices, but He will indeed "save us from ourselves" on occasion. I've experienced this firsthand on numerous occasions. I used to live a pretty reckless life-style. I'm convinced that apart from divine intervention I wouldn't be alive right now.




Shalom

 

[Lulav]

Lulav,

No, we have no free will while we are in bondage to sin.. But when we are regenerated then we have a free will to do the will of the Father..

I know that you don't like Paul.. I have no problem with Paul or his teaching as I believe them to be in sink with Yeshua and His teaching.. I believe too many people misinterpret Paul and what he is saying..

With that said, instead of a quote from Paul I am going to provide a quote from Yeshua himself for you...

John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

So Yeshua is saying that while we are unregenerated and in bondage to sin, no man will come to Him.. We must be freed from that bondage of sin through the regeneration by the Spirit of God which is sent by the Father to draw the person to Yeshua and to obedience.. But the person must be drawn by the Father first...

This is in sink with what Paul tells us elsewhere...

Anyway freedom of will only comes through Yeshua as it says in Psalm 119:45, "And I will walk at liberty for I seek thy precepts[FONT=Times New Roman, Times]."[/FONT] and that only happens when He enlarges our hearts as said in Psalm 119:32 "I will run the way of thy commandments, when thou shalt enlarge my heart." and then He, Yeshua, will teach us the way of His statues so that we shall keep it unto the end, in Psalm 119:33 "Teach me, O LORD, the way of thy statutes; and I shall keep it unto the end. "

Michael

Michael, That really makes no sense to me in light of what it says in Torah.

Abraham was given a choice to be obedient, as were the Children of Israel at the foot of the mountain. HaShem proposed his covenant, we did not have to accept. But we were given a choice by him. He told us of the blessings and curses, he told us to choose Life! If we did not have a choice then why would he say this?

As far as no one coming to him, how then did his apostles follow him? Even the ones who listened to him knew he spoke the truth and followed him.

 

[Lulav]

Of course we do. I would never suggest such a thing, Sis. HaShem can still be completely in control, while allowing us to exercise our freewill. I don't think it's that difficult of a concept to grasp. The concept of divine intervention would fall into this category. He allows us to make poor choices, but He will indeed "save us from ourselves" on occasion. I've experienced this firsthand on numerous occasions. I used to live a pretty reckless life-style. I'm convinced that apart from divine intervention I wouldn't be alive right now.




Shalom

Yes, that is the mystery, how he can be so involved with our lives and look after us at the same time letting us choose on our own. Like a true parent, sometimes we have to let our children learn the hard way, while we watch over them.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Abraham was given a choice to be obedient, as were the Children of Israel at the foot of the mountain. HaShem proposed his covenant, we did not have to accept. But we were given a choice by him. He told us of the blessings and curses, he told us to choose Life! If we did not have a choice then why would he say this?

Lulav, I too disagree with what Michael is propossing. However, I wanted to point something out concerning the above comment. Some Rabbi's teach that the Sinai mountain was actually, and literally held over their heads on that occasion. That would kind of "help the decision along" don't you think?

Just thought I would throw that in there for good measure.



Shalom

 

[MikhaelDavid]

Abraham and the Apostles came unto Him by first being regenerated and drawn by the Father..

Yes He gave blessings and curses and for those who are lost in unbelief will be curses.. Man has no excuse but man is also held in bondage to sin and to their Master Satan and can not come unto the Father until the Father draws him (those are the words of Yeshua). Man held in bondage is called by the law to repent, the law is first a tutor to the unbelievers but man will never seek God because of Sin and we are told that in Psalm 53 "God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one." It says No one seeks God and no one does good.. So it is God who draws the sinner and regenerates them first to obedience..

Paul said the same thing quoting from Psalm 53 in Romans 3:10-12 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one."


Regeneration First, Repentance Second, and Obedience Third.. The Spirit dwells within by being Sent by the Father so that the person will be free from sin and set at liberty to obey the Son.

Michael

P.S. This is my last post on this subject just because it is off topic with the thread.. I do not want to further derail the thread.. If one wants to talk about Salvation, Drawing of the Father to the Son, Election, and how we are saved, etc, We can start another thread..

Michael, That really makes no sense to me in light of what it says in Torah.

Abraham was given a choice to be obedient, as were the Children of Israel at the foot of the mountain. HaShem proposed his covenant, we did not have to accept. But we were given a choice by him. He told us of the blessings and curses, he told us to choose Life! If we did not have a choice then why would he say this?

As far as no one coming to him, how then did his apostles follow him? Even the ones who listened to him knew he spoke the truth and followed him.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

P.S. This is my last post on this subject just because it is off topic with the thread.. I do not want to further derail the thread.. If one wants to talk about Salvation, Drawing of the Father to the Son, Election, and how we are saved, etc, We can start another thread..

Can you please go ahead and do that then? I'm a bit surprised that you believe in the doctrine of regeneration, but your interpretation seems to have a bit of a twist to what I remember of that teaching when I was a Christian. I haven't visited that subject in quite some time though. But I'm interested in discussing it with you if you want to start up a thread, Bro.




Shalom

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Why hope? Doesn't your faith alone tell you he will?

Is there a sense of humor lurking anywhere in there Lulav?

Sanctification does not come from the Law of Moses..

That is basic...

DO you even know ..
The Law of God comes from God
The law of Moses [written on parchment] comes from God
Sanctification which comes from God
Grace which comes from God
Mercy which comes from God
Justification which comes from God
Righteousness which comes from God

Non of these things are in us unless God puts it there..

Correct. So the question remains, what do you hope to add by observing torah law?

So you can not use John Gill to try to prove your point....

Yes I can....and I have. I've noticed your posts consist of many words but little substance. You still cant produce a single verse regarding believers in the Messiah that say obsreving torah law brings sanctification. And no wonder. If you could then it would mean Christ's sacrifice was in vain.

You can try and stand there and say my ministering and observance of law brings me holiness, but the truth is....it is Christs sacrifice that has done this for all those who believe.

10:8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;

10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.

10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

10:11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;​

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

Mod Hat On :

Hey guys this isnt the theology forum so its not a place to teach/campaign against established MJ teaching.... just saying..... so if that is your goal change it ok?

Hi Tishri,

I was looking at calling this place my home. I read the statement of faith and thought I was a good fit.

I'm debating whether observance of torah law is necessary for righteousness / sanctification / justification for those in Christ.

I didnt see that in the statement of faith and no-one has said thats an established teaching of this group so am I allowed to continue debating that issue? I think its a vital issue.

Respectfully,

Doc.

 

[ContraMundum]

Messianic Judaism in order to have their own little spot, must define themselves, identify themselves as unique or they will be lost in the crowd. They are a movement right now, and I am praying that God will continue to lead them. We are all travelling in the wilderness of sin, and we are all lookling forward to the coming of the promised land. Those who have joined with this tribe see benefits of both Judaism and Christianity.. and are hopefully spiritually discerning enough to pick out the gems of God hidden in each and blow away the dust/dross that has accumulated on these truths as the Holy Spirit teaches them to discern.

We have an accord.

 

[David Ben Yosef]

Why are you in this section of the forum.. amongst those who clearly declare that they do gather on the sabbath, eat certain foods that God has ordained to be eaten, etc...etc..

THANK YOU!!!

 

[ContraMundum]

How was Yeshua crucified among the Galatians?

To explain the verse, it says:

Gal 3:1 ῏Ω ἀνόητοι Γαλάται, τίς ὑμᾶς ἐβάσκανε τῇ ἀληθείᾳ μὴ πείθεσθε, οἷς κατ᾿ ὀφθαλμοὺς ᾿Ιησοῦς Χριστὸς προεγράφη ἐν ὑμῖν ἐσταυρωμένος;

Literally:

O foolish Galatians, who bewitched you to not obey the truth, to whom before your eyes Jesus Christ was written before among you crucified?

It is about the presentation to the Galatians of the crucifixion of Jesus.

The Good News Bible makes it easy in more modern language:

Gal 3:1 You foolish Galatians! Who put a spell on you? Before your very eyes you had a clear description of the death of Jesus Christ on the cross!

I hope this helps clear your question up a little.

 

[ContraMundum]

THANK YOU!!!

DBY- while you might applaud the comment, you forget that I rest on the Sabbath, follow the rules of kashrus as best I can, remember the Moedim, and even wear tzitzis under my shirt. I have done since boyhood. It's my thing. I do not preach that Christians are obligated under the pain of sin to do likewise- this is the difference between me and vis and others, and oddly I am the one inline with mainstream MJism, and you guys are not.

This is the irony of it all. I have non-Jewish people telling me I am obligated to keep laws they they are not obligated to keep, and then I get former Christians like yourself applauding these same non-Jews because to people like yourself I am not Jewish enough! Very judgmental.

Funny how everyone thinks we Jews are obligated to act according to their beliefs about us.

We are not your hobby.

 

[Dr.Strangelove]

DBY- while you might applaud the comment, you forget that I rest on the Sabbath, follow the rules of kashrus as best I can, remember the Moedim, and even wear tzitzis under my shirt. I have done since boyhood. It's my thing. I do not preach that Christians are obligated under the pain of sin to do likewise- this is the difference between me and vis and others, and oddly I am the one inline with mainstream MJism, and you guys are not.

This is the irony of it all. I have non-Jewish people telling me I am obligated to keep laws they they are not obligated to keep, and then I get former Christians like yourself applauding these same non-Jews because to people like yourself I am not Jewish enough! Very judgmental.

Funny how everyone thinks we Jews are obligated to act according to their beliefs about us.

We are not your hobby.

See.....this is the kind of views I was hoping to fellowhip with in this subforum.

I wanted to talk to real Jews who appreciated their ancestory, their forefathers customs, and history and who even still follow the laws of the Hebrews. I got no problem with reading the torah and following certain laws therein.

But the difference between Contra and the rest of you guys is that he knows what Jesus Christ came here to do. He knows the deep meaning of the sacrifice that God gave for our sins and the total substitutionary atonement that all those who believe can recieve.

God....made....Christ....SIN....so that we...be.....made....RIGHTEOUS.

It is not OUR righteousness that we have it is HIS. And ONLY His. There is no man who is righteous. No, not one.

I think its fantastic that some people like to hold to certain torah laws. If it makes you feel closer to God then bless you for doing that. But it doesn't make you more sinless or more righteous or holy than any of us who dont choose to do that.

There is nothing we can add to what God has done. Nothing.