Salvation

[Christy4Christ]

One thing I do have a little bit of a problem with is this. I do hear what everyone is saying about God being about Love and stuff like that. I know that we are not God and can't judge where people will wind up BUT I do know that Jesus Himself said "NO ONE gets to the Father except through me" I really take that verse literally.

I do believe there will be exception for the minority of people who may have NEVER heard the gospel or the name of Jesus. However, I do not believe for one minute that anyone who has heard His name and has rejected it will wind up in Heaven. I just do not believe that because I know the words of Jesus, they were very clear to me.

 

[nyj]

However, I do not believe for one minute that anyone who has heard His name and has rejected it will wind up in Heaven.

So what's the minimum level of exposure to the Gospel before we start pitching people in the firey pit? This is a very slippery slope, I'd hate to ever start down it.

 

[BAChristian]

So what's the minimum level of exposure to the Gospel before we start pitching people in the firey pit? This is a very slippery slope, I'd hate to ever start down it.

I don't even wanna touch this one...

 

[BAChristian]

Sinful activity has nothing to do with being liberal or being conservative.

Don't know if I agree with ya...

 

[BAChristian]

Then I guess I'm not going to make it. Bummer.

Dude, kill the sarcasm please...

Tell me why you don't agree with me then...

 

[seebs]

For a historical example, consider some of the more fanatically conservative groups - say, the folks who burned "witches", or some of the people who used to persecute Catholics in the early days of the US. They were clearly "conservative", but I don't know how much good it did them.

I think that the extremists on both sides tend to be in a bit of danger.

FWIW, I never understood the "assurance of salvation" thing; I know too many ex-Christians who were once totally sure, and I don't trust that kind of certainty. Me, I've never thought I "know" I'm saved; I just have faith that God will sort things out.

 

[nyj]

Don't know if I agree with ya...

You don't have to agree with me or not. You just need to agree with the Catholic Church. Sinful activity revolves around three issues, which I've already stated, and not one of them has to do with whether one is conservative or liberal.

 

[Christy4Christ]

So what's the minimum level of exposure to the Gospel before we start pitching people in the firey pit? This is a very slippery slope, I'd hate to ever start down it.

Well, I dunno about that I don't make the rules and never said I did. What do you think? What would be your opinion on the matter? Let's say someone hears the story of Jesus but says it's a fairy tale, what about them? What if someone has gone to church for half of their life but then decides they don't believe in Jesus? There are many situations but the thing is, we cannot deny what Jesus said, can we? Can we honestly think that there is a loophole there?

 

[nyj]

Dude, kill the sarcasm please...

Well, I guess after being committed to Hell, my only response can be to jest. I mean, afterall, I guess I only have this life to enjoy myself cause the afterlife is going to be eternal pain, so I may as well joke while I have the chance.

Tell me why you don't agree with me then...

Phillipians 2:12.

And no, I do not believe that "fear and trembling" means "being in awe of the wonderful gift of salvation irrevocably being given to me".

 

[BAChristian]

You don't have to agree with me or not. You just need to agree with the Catholic Church. Sinful activity revolves around three issues, which I've already stated, and not one of them has to do with whether one is conservative or liberal.

I agree with the Catholic Church regarding the definition of mortal and venial.

 

[nyj]

What do you think?

I already said that this is a slippery slope that none of us really have any business being on to begin with.

What would be your opinion on the matter?

My opinion on the matter would be to hope that all may obtain salvation.

O my Jesus, forgive us our sins. Save us from the fires of Hell. Lead all souls to Heaven, especially those most in need of Thy mercy. Amen.

Let's say someone hears the story of Jesus but says it's a fairy tale, what about them? What if someone has gone to church for half of their life but then decides they don't believe in Jesus?

In the first instance, what if that person was raised a devout Buddhist their entire life. In passing, once, for maybe five minutes, they heard a missionary preaching the gospel. Not being familar with the customs of that missionary, the Buddhist really doesn't pay the missionary that much heed. However, he goes onwith his life, living it morally. Is he ****** to hell because of that?

In the second instance, what if that person has gone to church and was abused. They struggle day after day, month after month, year after year trying to come to grips with what happened to them. What happened to them at the hands of a supposed Minister of God. Perhaps they conclude that if God really did exist, such things wouldn't happen, and since it did, full of despair and depressed after years of emotional anguish, they wash their hands of the whole affair. Do they burn in hell because of it?

There are many situations but the thing is, we cannot deny what Jesus said, can we? Can we honestly think that there is a loophole there?

No, we do not deny what Jesus said, but there is a right way and a wrong way to interpret what He said. There is no denying that all who obtain Heaven do so because of Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ was the spotless lamb, the singularly pure sacrifice which could atone for the sins of the world. So, if a devout Muslim obtains Heaven, he does so because of Jesus Christ. If a devout Buddhist obtains Heaven, he does so because of Jesus Christ. If a devout Christian obtains Heaven, he does so because of Jesus Christ. Where is the loophole here?

 

[nyj]

I agree with the Catholic Church regarding the definition of mortal and venial.

So where does conservative and liberal come into the equation?

 

[Christy4Christ]

But are you also saying that the Catholic Church teaches that you don't have to go through Jesus to get to Heaven? Please be easy on me because I am just returning to the Catholic church and I am rather confused on some issues. I don't know what is going on with anyone else but I would like to know once and for all; Is the church teaching that people can get to Heaven via another avenue apart from Jesus?

 

[Christy4Christ]

No, we do not deny what Jesus said, but there is a right way and a wrong way to interpret what He said. There is no denying that all who obtain Heaven do so because of Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ was the spotless lamb, the singularly pure sacrifice which could atone for the sins of the world. So, if a devout Muslim obtains Heaven, he does so because of Jesus Christ. If a devout Buddhist obtains Heaven, he does so because of Jesus Christ. If a devout Christian obtains Heaven, he does so because of Jesus Christ. Where is the loophole here?

I am sorry but these statements worry me and if this IS infact what is being taught by the church then I will take issue with that. A devout Buddhist? A devout Muslim?!

 

[nyj]

But are you also saying that the Catholic Church teaches that you don't have to go through Jesus to get to Heaven?

I said specifically:
There is no denying that all who obtain Heaven do so because of Jesus Christ, because Jesus Christ was the spotless lamb, the singularly pure sacrifice which could atone for the sins of the world.

Is the church teaching that people can get to Heaven via another avenue apart from Jesus?

No. It never has taught that, and it never will. The question comes down to though, who does this salvation, earned for us by Christ extend to. We are all, regardless of creed, children of God.

 

[nyj]

I am sorry but these statements worry me and if this IS infact what is being taught by the church then I will take issue with that. A devout Buddhist? A devout Muslim?!

So, if someone is a devout Buddhist their entire life, and never came into contact with the Gospel, they will go to Hell? Is this what you are saying?

 

[Christy4Christ]

No but how realistic is that??? Seriously ,how do you suppose they would never have had the occasion to hear of Jesus in today's day and age???

 

[Christy4Christ]

I have already said that I believe that people who have never heard the gospel will more than likely be an exception. Why are you asking me that question when I have already made that statement?

 

[BAChristian]

Well, I guess after being committed to Hell, my only response can be to jest.

nyj, you should know me better than that...I'm sorry you've taken what I say the wrong way.

It hasn't been my intent. I am searching for answers to my own questions -- questions about my own faith. I need your help, and your understanding, rather than your sarcasm.

 

[nyj]

No but how realistic is that???

I'd say it's pretty darn realistic. Have you ever really been exposed to Buddhism? Have many people ever really been exposed to other religions outside that of what they were raised in? I think we'd be kidding ourselves if we said a large portion of society was exposed to a plurality of religions. Therefore, if we are not exposed to a variety of religions, what is to make us think that in China, where great Christian persecution takes place, that a multitude of people are going to be exposed to the Gospel?

Also, what about all the people who lived before modern times and easy exposure to different creeds? Do we just assume that everyone who lived in China prior to say, 1500 AD is going to suffer in Hell because they never heard the Gospel?

I don't like going down this road because I think it does several things:

1. It denies the perfect mercy of God, the Only One who knows the soul of each individual.
2. It attempts to usurp, in no matter how small a role, the perfect judgement of God, the Only One who can make these decisions.

My advice: Worry about your own salvation, let God sort out the rest.