Salvation

[eBeth]

I don't consider scruples an illness. Scruples are caused by the evil powers in this world. Your carnal side is weak. Hence, this weakness can be used against you...only through Christ and through prayer, and a strong mindset, can you get rid of scruples...

Scruples are VERY MUCH a mental illness caused, in most cases by emotional issues and chemical imbalances in the brain. Prayer will indeed help someone with scruples, but they very much need medical and psychological help. You have NO IDEA how terrifying it is to live in a world where, no matter how much you believe in God's love, you always worry about offending Him. I would suggest you browse the postings on "the_scrupe_group" message board on YAHOO! Groups. These people are not just troubled by evil powers, they have very real fears caused by physical and emotional issues.

 

[ukok]

If you take revenge, and you know that you shouldn't, then you've sinned. A strong Christian will not sin in that instance. He won't take revenge. That's all part of good moral thinking

I disagree entirely. If someone killed one of my loved one's then i could not tell you that i would not kill, and i consider myself a strong christian. So, can you honestly tell me that if someone took the life of one of your close family members, that you would absolutely not retaliate?

Trust me, I do not have a "loving myself more than others" attitude. You've misunderstood me. Knowing whether or not you're going to make it to heaven or not has nothing to do with pridefulness, or arrogance or anything like that.

I don't agree. Being quietly optimistic is different to actual knowledge.

It's as though you think that Christians mortally sin every day. If a person is mortally sinning every day, then it's my opinion they're not a very strong Christian.

A strong Christian would find it hard to mortally sin.

Huh? you are not actually debating my strength as a christian are you? I do not think that ALL Christians are sinning mortally everyday, where did you come up with that from?

It also depends upon how you base the breaking of the Ten Commandment's. Frankly, I doubt that there are all that many of us that don't break at least one of them daily. Is that mortal enough for you...

 

[BAChristian]

I am not worthly of the Lord no matter what I do, it is by his grace alone that saves me.

I agree. I would add that: it is by answering to the grace that he freely gives, is what saves me. If I don't answer, then I will not make it to heaven. And that means that I've lost my salvation, which is easy to do if you don't keep your eyes on Him 100% of the time.

I fear not the past but the future for many men greater then I have fallen and rejected the grace of the Lord.

I fear not the past. But I don't fear the future because "though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. For thou art with me!"

If I worry about sinning in the future all the time, then I will be a depressed soul. I won't want to live for God because it'll be too hard. I'll feel that I'm not worthy to be forgiven...that I have to live in a state of penance 24 hours a day, seven days a week. In other words, I'll end up like Martin Luther...and subscribe to other doctrines (or make up my own) to console my soul...

I will not insult my Lord by assuming or axpecting anything for he owes me nothing.

Agreed.

Each moment that he gives me, each bit of grace, each gift is beyound what I can repay.

Absolutely.

I hope and pray that every day I grow closer to.

Agreed!

I know that my Lord is kind and mercful which gives me hope eternal.

I hate to use the word, "hope"...hope to me sounds as though we're doubting whether or not, if we live according to God's teachings, we're going to make it to heaven. I don't believe that to be biblical. God wants us to be happy, and joyous in our salvation -- not sitting around wondering whether or not we're going to make it to heaven...

I put my life and the rest that is me into his hands

Amen...

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

I didn't see any mention of temporal punishment here or attatchment to venial sins...

Those things while not meriting eternal punishment, will find us smack dab in the middle of Purgatory.

And "hope" is a theological virtue......

 

[BAChristian]

So, can you honestly tell me that if someone took the life of one of your close family members, that you would absolutely not retaliate?

I'd want to, sure, but I believe that I am a strong enough Christian that I wouldn't...

Huh? you are not actually debating my strength as a christian are you?

Not at all.

Frankly, I doubt that there are all that many of us that don't break at least one of them daily. Is that mortal enough for you...

Wow...well, I guess I see things different than you...

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone here -- I was really just looking for different perspectives...it seems I've "ruffled some feathers"...

It was not my intent. I apologize.

I truly would like to hear different points of view, without people thinking that I'm "holier than thou", or whatever...

I can see that my views on how a Christian should perceive his or her salvation has made some people edgy. I can also see that people are getting defensive about mortal sin.

Maybe my view of mortal sin is different than other people's view. Quite frankly, if you are committing grave sins every day, then you need to seriously sit down, re-read your Bible, and reflect on your life as a Christian.

If that makes me sounds "arrogant", or "prideful", or whatever, then so be it. I believe this way, because I believe this is how Christ wants us to act. I'm not going to sugarcoat this...it's my opinion that if you're committing mortal sin every day, then your salvation is in jeopardy. How could you possibly think that it's not?!?! Am I being "judgemental"? Not at all. If you think so, then go read what the Bible says...

 

[geocajun]

CCC-2091 The first commandment is also concerned with sins against hope, namely, despair and presumption:
By despair, man ceases to hope for his personal salvation from God, for help in attaining it or for the forgiveness of his sins. Despair is contrary to God's goodness, to his justice - for the Lord is faithful to his promises - and to his mercy.


despair is ceasing to hope for personal savation from God, and presumption is pretty close to the exact same thing:

CCC-2092 There are two kinds of presumption. Either man presumes upon his own capacities, (hoping to be able to save himself without help from on high), or he presumes upon God's almighty power or his mercy (hoping to obtain his forgiveness without conversion and glory without merit).


CCC-2733 Another temptation, to which presumption opens the gate, is acedia. The spiritual writers understand by this a form of depression due to lax ascetical practice, decreasing vigilance, carelessness of heart. "The spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak." The greater the height, the harder the fall. Painful as discouragement is, it is the reverse of presumption. The humble are not surprised by their distress; it leads them to trust more, to hold fast in constancy.

 

[Benedicta00]

I disagree. No one knows for sure where they're going, BA. We may have strong suspicions about where we're going, but only God has definite knowledge. There are various reasons for having doubt about one's salvation. For instance, if one's doubts are due to scruples of some kind (like in my case), then they might be afraid of not being saved. Is such a person "not right w/ the Lord"? Not necessarily, b/c their doubts are due to an illness.

We can't make presumptions about our salvation, BA. We can only trust that God will judge us as He sees fit.

I agree with you.

To “know thy self” not many of us really know who we really are and how we stand before the Lord. Is He merciful? Indeed, that is what I rely on, MERCY, nothing else. I know I fall way short and mercy is all I can count on.

 

[Benedicta00]

BA Christian,

Have you read the life of St. Theresa Little Flower?? The Story of a Soul?

I think you would enjoy it if you did. Humility is the only path to God.

 

[BAChristian]

Ukok and I actually have PM'ed each other and I wanted to go ahead and post this so as to clear up any misunderstandings here...

All I was trying to get across was this -- we shouldn't walk around like zombies with our heads down wondering whether or not we're going to make it to heaven. I believe, that we should know whether or not we're going to make it based on our relationship with God. Personally, if I have doubts, then I need to seriously step back, and look at myself...

I was just trying to see if people think the same way I do. It seems that no one, other than ukok, has really gave me any kind of concrete feedback. And that's ok. This is a very, individualistic topic when it comes down to this particular issue. I think there's a difference between salvation as taught by the Church, and whether or not we should know, on an individualistic basis, whether or not we're going to make it to heaven. And that's the, individualistic part that I'm talking about.

Re: matters of morals. I sincerely don't believe that we should sin, mortally, every day. The topic of examples of mortal sin is VERY individualistic, which is why I probably haven't gotten the responses that I've desired.

Nevertheless, I don't believe that a Christian, who is serious in his or her salvation, will mortally sin every day.

If you say that you mortally sin every day, yet you claim to be a strong Christian, then I'm not going to doubt the latter (I believe that that would be sinful on my part). Rather, I will just figure that you're definition of mortal is different than mine. However, if one's examples of mortal sin is the same as mine, yet they call theirselves a "serious Christian", then I would encourage them to seek God in prayer...

We all are called to encourage and correct each other, should we fall into the trap of sin...how we do that, however, can lead us into sins of pride...

For example, would me being angry with you and raising my voice to you, be a mortal sin on my part? No...but if I continued to be this way to you, knowing full well that the Holy Spirit was chastising me about what I'm saying to you, then yes, it would be mortal. Because I am purposely ignoring the Spirit and trying to fulfill my own prideful agenda against you, in order to make myself feel good...

You, however, in this example, may think that that kind of behavior would instantly be a mortal sin... So thus, when you say that you find it hard to believe that people don't sin at least once a day, maybe this is why...

So I think, in the end, we have an issue with communication and semantics most likely.

God bless...I hope that clarifies my position on this topic. And Shelb, thanks for the recommendation, I've been wanting to read something about her.

 

[Benedicta00]

Ba,

I hear where you are coming from and for the most part I agree. We have great hope that we will be among the elect and we have no reason to be ashamed but every reason to hold our heads high but not with out humility, knowing that we are sinners who needs salvation.

 

[BAChristian]

Ba,

I hear where you are coming from and for the most part I agree. We have great hope that we will be among the elect and we have no reason to be ashamed but every reason to hold our heads high but not with out humility, knowing that we are sinners who needs salvation.

Oh, I couldn't agree more. We are called, by Christ, to be humble. Personally, I don't think people should look at a Christian and go, "He's kinda a loud mouth huh?"

If so, then that person should probably pray that God will work with him on that...

 

[Benedicta00]

Oh, I couldn't agree more. We are called, by Christ, to be humble. Personally, I don't think people should look at a Christian and go, "He's kinda a loud mouth huh?"

If so, then that person should probably pray that God will work with him on that...

But if he is one, then he is one. What I have to do is die to myself thinking I own the universe and this guy needs to shut up. It is a matter of taking this sinful world as it is and not as I would have it.

 

[BAChristian]

But if he is one, then he is one. What I have to do is die to myself thinking I own the universe and this guy needs to shut up. It is a matter of taking this sinful world as it is and not as I would have it.

But if he is one, then we should pray for him so that the Lord will work with him to be humble, no? It's not an issue of whether being a loud mouth or not is a sin. It is a sin to be a loud mouth. The Bible speaks against it...so, we should pray for that individual.

Here's another example:

Your friend is a smoker. (I'm gonna regret this example...LOL) You know what the Bible says about keeping your body as a temple of God. Do you think smoking cigarettes is a way to keep your body as a temple of God? I don't.

So...I would pray that God will work with this person. I'm not saying that this person is going to hell...that would be judgemental. And if that guy actually doesn't feel chastised about it, then that's between him and God...not me, God, and him...

It comes down to being liberal or being conservative. And it's all about your personal relationship with God.

What we can't do, is let our personal convictions breed pridefulness...

HOWEVER, there are sins that are sins...you can sugarcoat those sins, but they're still a sin. Like murder, for example...there are some things that I think we, as Christians, are called to minister to our brothers and sisters...we just have to do so tactfully...

(And yes, for the record, smoking is an issue with me. It seems that the Church doesn't have a problem with it, and I think that's morally wrong. One Sunday, my parish had something in the bulletin regarding smoking 25 feet from the building or something to that effect, because of fire code issues...what the Church should do is encourage people to not smoke period. Personally, if I smoked, I'd feel as though I was losing my salvation, because at one time, smokeless tobacco use, for me, was a BIG DEAL. Does that mean that you're going to hell if you smoke? I don't know. That's between you and God. But I know how the Lord has made me feel about it...)

 

[Miss Shelby]

taking this sinful world as it is and not as I would have it.

Michelle,

This comes straight out of the serenity prayer. Don't know if you know that or not.

Michelle

 

[ShannonMcCatholic]

Just a bit on the smoking thing-- as an ex-smoker- I must say as with all addictions there is a matter of freedom. There may have been freedom in the beginning, but if someone is an addict, then they are no longer freely choosing the wrong behaviour... This doesn't mean that they might not know smoking is wrong, but they might not be free to make the choice to not smoke...

 

[BAChristian]

This doesn't mean that they might not know smoking is wrong, but they might not be free to make the choice to not smoke...

I totally disagree. I chewed tobacco for eight years. I knew what I was doing was sinful, but I didn't care.

Could I quit? You bet. And I did. And I wasn't even "professing to be a Christian" at the time...in other words, I had lost my salvation at that time.

Shannon, the Bible tells us that we'll never be tempted more than what we can handle.

Sorry, but I think that's just an excuse.

 

[Benedicta00]

Michelle,

This comes straight out of the serenity prayer. Don't know if you know that or not.

Michelle

LOL, yes I did. I love that prayer. I think it is the best prayer for believing that you will be among the elect if you surrender all.

 

[Benedicta00]

But if he is one, then we should pray for him so that the Lord will work with him to be humble, no?

No, we should pray that if he is, he work in us that we will be humble to take this world as it is and not as we would have it. Joe doesn’t need to shut up for me, who am I?

It's not an issue of whether being a loud mouth or not is a sin. It is a sin to be a loud mouth. The Bible speaks against it...so, we should pray for that individual.

Yes, but we also should pray that we aren't just trying to run the universe.

Here's another example:

Your friend is a smoker. (I'm gonna regret this example...LOL) You know what the Bible says about keeping your body as a temple of God. Do you think smoking cigarettes is a way to keep your body as a temple of God? I don't.

So...I would pray that God will work with this person. I'm not saying that this person is going to hell...that would be judgemental. And if that guy actually doesn't feel chastised about it, then that's between him and God...not me, God, and him...

It comes down to being liberal or being conservative. And it's all about your personal relationship with God.

What we can't do, is let our personal convictions breed pridefulness...

HOWEVER, there are sins that are sins...you can sugarcoat those sins, but they're still a sin. Like murder, for example...there are some things that I think we, as Christians, are called to minister to our brothers and sisters...we just have to do so tactfully...

(And yes, for the record, smoking is an issue with me. It seems that the Church doesn't have a problem with it, and I think that's morally wrong. One Sunday, my parish had something in the bulletin regarding smoking 25 feet from the building or something to that effect, because of fire code issues...what the Church should do is encourage people to not smoke period. Personally, if I smoked, I'd feel as though I was losing my salvation, because at one time, smokeless tobacco use, for me, was a BIG DEAL. Does that mean that you're going to hell if you smoke? I don't know. That's between you and God. But I know how the Lord has made me feel about it...)

Okay, but after you have prayed and preached about the ills of smoking, are you going to let God run the universe now? Are you going to take this sinful world as it is and not as you would have it?

The serenity prayer is a good example, it is good for control freaks, not saying that I think that is where you are coming from because I don't but it is good to have courage to change the things you can change and accept the things you can’t and the wisdom to know the difference.

Have courage to change what you can but know the only one you can change is you. The deal is in prudence. You may know what is sin and what isn’t and you may have the zeal to stand up for what is right but if you lack prudence, knowing when to speak the truth in love, you won’t be effective.

The best way to convert people is through evangelical love for one another.

 

[nyj]

It comes down to being liberal or being conservative. And it's all about your personal relationship with God.

Sinful activity has nothing to do with being liberal or being conservative. Sinful activity revolves around three issues. Foreknowledge, culpability and the gravity of the action. If all three of these issues converge, a mortal sin occurs. If but one of these criteria is not met, it's venial.

Your example of smoking fails because the Catholic Church clearly states that addiction and habit lessen the culpability of ones actions.

You have said, on more than one occassion, that if one persists in commiting a sin, it becomes mortal. This is not always the case. If a sin lacks gravity, it can not be mortal, no matter how many times it is committed. Now, it is true that repetition of venial sins predisposes us to mortal sin, but it's not a guaranteed lock that it will.

For instance, there is a penny jar at the local convenience store. Everytime I'm there, I swipe one. Yes, it is stealing. Yes, I knew what I was doing when I did it and yes I did it anyways. However, the sin is not grave. It never will be grave. I am not harming anyone by this action. I might inconvenience someone who has to pay $1.01 for something and they have $2.00 on them (forcing them to get 99 cents change in the process) but I haven't harmed anyone. However, if I swipe 10 dollars from a homeless person who was relying on that money to eat for the next couple of days, the gravity of the situation worsens.

 

[nyj]

I guess, personally, I have always believed that if you don't know if you're going to heaven or not, then you're not going to make it. If you have doubts, then you're not going to make it. Because if you were right with the Lord, you wouldn't have doubts...you'd know that if you died right now, you were going to make it.

Then I guess I'm not going to make it. Bummer.