Salvation is an Experience

[servant7777]

Ok??And how many believers were in complete, perfect obedience of God in the New Testament, with no need for warnings or chastisements? ? How many churches were in complete obedience in Rev 3? Were they all necessarily non-Christian, hell-bound, unless perfection was attained?

Does that mean you acknowledge or deny that the words for us to be of the same mind and judgment perfectly, are a commandment of God ?

It seems like you deny it.

 

[servant7777]

Yes, that's the perfect goal. You seem to be one of the few who's perfectly attained it. Congratulations.

A perfect goal with no way to score.

That would be an imperfect fake goal you present.

 

[fhansen]

Do you want to prove me right

Prove me wrong. Show me the Catholic teachings.

 

[servant7777]

As many as God loves He rebukes, Revelation churches) and if they don't know that Gods word to have perfected love is a commandment of God, they would never do it ( as you state about yourself.)

 

[servant7777]

Prove me wrong. Show me the Catholic teachings.

You were proven wrong, you say we cant achieve perfect love, yet Gods word commands it and testifies it is when God dwells in us.


1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

 

[fhansen]

A perfect goal with no way to score.

That would be an imperfect fake goal you present.

Anyone who remains in Him will grow in love, towards the perfection He created us for, and it will be fully consummated in the next life. You sound like one who might not know Him, or yourself, so well yet. But you're good at quoting Scripture, I'll say that for you!

 

[servant7777]

I also am suspicious you say you are Catholic on purpose( and have Catholic writings ready) to try to deny the scriptures because that's what you claim the Catholic church says.

I do wonder why a Christian forum cant see your actions.

 

[servant7777]

Anyone who remains in Him will grow in love, towards the perfection He created us for, and it will be fully consummate it in the next life. you sound like one who might not know Him, or yourself, so well yet.

fake goal, try to achieve it without having a net to score in.

 

[servant7777]

The words could say Towards perfection regarDing Gods love in us, but they actually say PERFECTED.


1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

 

[servant7777]

You also wriggle and try different angles, but the same outcome, no answer why you deny Gods word to insert your own instead.

 

[servant7777]

I also never saw any Catholic behave like you, and I live in a Catholic country.

 

[servant7777]

YOU SOUND LIKE ONE WHO MIGHT NOT KNOW HIM, or yourself, so well yet. But you're good at quoting Scripture, I'll say that for you!

more scripture quoting then.


We cant know Him if we don't keep His commandments, when we keep His word VERILY IN US IS THE LOVE OF GOD PERFECTED.


1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

 

[fhansen]

I also am suspicious you say you are Catholic on purpose( and have Catholic writings ready) to try to deny the scriptures because that's what you claim the Catholic church says.

I do wonder why a Christian forum cant see your actions.

No Catholic teachings deny Scripture. The church received the gospel from the beginning. As for yourself, you're quite disadvantaged, coming along centuries after the fact as it is, and interpreting Scripture privately as it were, with a best-guess kind of theology. Either way, congratulations for achieving perfect love, sinless perfection. You're the first I've ran into.

 

[Ligurian]

Some say he is referring to his pre-conversion state.

I don't agree - He writes the Law of the Spirit on our hearts and still the flesh wages war against it.

You are a sinner like the rest of us.

We are saved by grace not obedience - yet obedience brings much eternal reward.

Jeremiah 31:30-34 But every one shall die in his own sin; and the teeth of him that eats the sour grape shall be set on edge.[31] Behold the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a New Covenant with the House of Israel, and with the House of Juda:[32] not according to the Covenant which I made with their fathers in the day when I took hold of their hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; for they abode not in My Covenant, and I disregarded them, saith the Lord.[33] For this is My Covenant which I will make with the House of Israel; after those days, saith the Lord, I will surely put My Laws into their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to Me a people.[34] And they shall not at all teach every one his fellow citizen and every one his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them: for I will be merciful to their iniquities, and their sins I will remember no more.LXX

John 14:21-26 He that hath My Commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth Me. And he that loveth Me shall be loved of My Father. And I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. ...[26] But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance whatsoever I have said unto you.

Jeremiah 3:8 And I saw that (for all the sins of which she was convicted, wherein the House of Israel committed adultery, and I put her away, and gave into her hands a bill of divorcement,) yet faithless Juda feared not, but went and herself also committed fornication.LXX
Hosea 2:1-23 And I will sow her to Me on the Earth, and will love her that was not loved: and will say to that which was not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art the Lord My God."LXX
Jeremiah 31:18-20 I have heard the sound of Ephraim lamenting, and saying, Thou hast chastened me, and I was chastened. I, as a calf was not willingly taught: turn Thou me and I shall turn, for Thou art the Lord My God.[19] For after my captivity I repented, and after I knew I groaned for the day of shame, and shewed Thee that I bore reproach from my youth.[20] Ephraim is a beloved son, a pleasing child to me: for because My words are in him, I will surely remember him: therefore I made haste to help him; I will surely have mercy upon him, saith the Lord.LXX

Matthew 23:8-10 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master: Christ; and all ye are brethren.[9] And call no man your father upon the Earth: for one is your Father, which is in Heaven.[10] Neither be ye called teachers: for one is your Teacher: Christ.
John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, one shepherd.

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 ...obedience... John 12:44-50.

Thanks for the cut and paste - now would you like to talk about it ?

Cut and paste... AFTER I found the right Scriptures, put the numbers in brackets to make it easier to read, capitalized the He Him My Mine, made sure the Book quote contained the verses I "cut and paste", highlighted the verses by colors to connect the same thoughts... (sigh) And now you want me to discuss that last part... which you never even noticed?

You said He writes the Law on our hearts... and seemed to think that meant the law of the spirit... but I showed you that it doesn't, because "every one shall die in his own sin" has nothing at all to do with the vicarious righteousness of the law of the spirit of Pauline doctrine. The Law written on our hearts is "My Commandments" and remains there by the Holy Spirit who reminds us of everything the Risen Lord said to the 12 Disciples. I will be to them a God = Thou art the Lord My God.


I will be to them a God is also said to Judah, when they return with their whole heart.

Jeremiah 32:36-41 And now thus has the Lord God of Israel said concerning this city, of which thou sayest, it shall be delivered into the hands of the king of Babylon by the sword and by famine and banishment.[37] Behold, I will gather them out of every land, where I have scattered them in My anger My wrath and great fury, and I will bring them back into this place and will cause them to dwell safely.[38] And they shall be to Me a people, and I will be to them a god.[39] And I will give them another way and another heart to fear Me continually, and that for good to them and their children after them.[40] And I will make with them an Everlasting Covenant, which I will by no means turn away from them, and I will put My fear into their heart that they may not depart from Me.[41] And I will visit them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, and with all My heart and with all My soul.LXX(Jeremias 39)

This "another way" is Matthew's Sermon on the Mount, and "and another heart to fear Me continually" is the giving of the Holy Spirit to those who keep My Commandments... this is the Gospel of the Kingdom of Heaven being given to Judah, too.


This is not a grafting-in theology. These people are all physically Jacob/Israel... the House of Israel had come home, in part, and were found in Galilee of Zebulun and Naphtali. This same Gospel of the Kingdom is preached in all the world to find the rest of them, by the Lost Sheep who are no longer lost.

The gathering of the gentiles is done by an obviously other method. As the Acts of the Apostles 15:20 shows, the gentiles don't have much law-keeping to do... so maybe they're not wired that way.

 

[servant7777]

Perfect love in us is having the perfect Lord Jesus Christ ( God is love) in us.


1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

 

[Ligurian]

The words could say Towards perfection regarDing Gods love in us, but they actually say PERFECTED.


1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Agreed. Perfect is the goal, in the here and now. Not after the mystery of God is finished, which is stated in Revelation 10:7, and defined in Revelation 11:15.

The rest of this is just said near you, not to you... I'm thinking you may already know it.

Perfection

Matthew 5:43-48 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in Heaven: for He maketh His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in Heaven is perfect.

Matthew 19:21 Ιησους said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in Heaven, and come and follow Me.

Revelation 3:1-3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write: These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God * and the seven stars. I know thy works: that thou hast a name that thou livest and art dead.[2] Be watchful and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.[3] Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast and repent.

So, Perfect is the goal to reach before the door is closed. The church of the open door is Philadelphia, the church of brotherly love. The first church Ephesus, lost most of this love by rooting out what was false among them; and therefore, becoming too distrustful to really love those who said they were brethren? Smyrna was tested... some passed, some didn't. Because the same doctrines found in Ephesus were found again in Pergamos and Thyatira; so that, by the time Sardis came around, the church had even forgotten in what manner she had received and heard. The last church Philadelphia, has figured this out, and has before her the open door of the key of David. Because it's not only Keeping the Commandments from Ιησους that's required in this Gospel of the Kingdom... it's keeping the words themselves, and learning from the Holy Spirit what these words mean. The connections are made through the verses themselves, and this is how the meaning is derived... because that's how the Sermon on the Mount was taught to His Disciples. And Laodicea is rich and become rich... it's harder to pass through the eye of a needle, than a rich man to enter the Kingdom... So Laodicea will have to pass through the fires of Great Tribulation, to become the multitude standing on the glass sea... "buy of Me gold tried in the fire".

The Key of the House of David

Revelation 3:7-13 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write: These things saith He that is holy, He that is true, He that hath the key of David, He that openeth and no man shutteth, and shutteth and no man openeth:[8] I know thy works. Behold, I have set before thee an open door and no man can shut it, for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept My word and hast not denied My name (authority and nature).

Isaiah 22:20-24 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will call My servant (son of Rising) Eliakim* the son of Chelcias:[21] and I will put on him thy robe, and I will grant him thy crown with power, and I will give thy stewardship into his hands: and he shall be as a father to them that dwell in Jerusalem, and to them that dwell in Juda.[22] And I will give Him the glory of David; and He shall rule, and there shall be none to speak against Him: and I will give Him the key of the house of David upon His shoulder; and He shall open and there shall be none to shut, and He shall shut and there shall be none to open.[23] And I will make Him a ruler in a sure place and He shall be for a glorious throne of His Father’s house.[24] And every one that is glorious in the house of His Father shall trust in Him, from the least to the greatest, and they shall depend upon Him in that day.LXX

Zechariah 3:8-10 If thou wilt walk in My ways and take heed to My charges, then shalt thou judge My house; and if thou wilt diligently keep My court, then will I give thee men to walk in the midst of these that stand here.[9] Hear now, Joshua the high priest, thou and thy neighbours that are sitting before thee: for they are diviners, for behold, I bring forth My servant (ανατολήν) Rising.*[10] For, as for the stone which I have set before the face of Joshua, on the one stone are seven eyes *: behold, I am digging a trench, saith the Lord Almighty, and I will search out all the iniquity of that land in one day.LXX

_____________________
* Anatolia = East or Rising, place of the rising sun: what the Greeks called the Asia Minor of Revelation's letters.
* The 7 eyes are the 7 spirits of God which the Risen Lord is holding, at Sardis.

 

[Ligurian]

Perfect love in us is having the perfect Lord Jesus Christ ( God is love) in us.


1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1 John 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

1 John 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

John 17:8-21 For I have given unto them the words which Thou gavest Me and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from Thee and they have believed that Thou didst send Me.[9] I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine. ...[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;[21] That they all may be one, as Thou, Father, art in Me, and I in Thee, that they also may be one in Us: that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me.*

John 15:23 Ιησους answered and said unto him, If a man love Me he will keep My words and My Father will love him, and We will come unto him and make Our abode with him.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear My voice; and there shall be one fold, one shepherd.

Matthew 10:5-7 These Twelve Ιησους sent forth and Commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:[6] But go rather to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel.[7] And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

__________________________
The Father's Words and Doctrine

* Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him.[19] And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX

Matthew 21:37-39 But last of all He sent unto them His Son saying, They will reverence My Son.[38] But when the husbandmen saw the Son they said among themselves, This is the heir: come, let us kill Him and let us seize on His inheritance.[39] And they caught Him and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him].

John 5:43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

John 7:16 Ιησους answered them, and said, My doctrine is not Mine, but His that sent Me.

John 12:44-50 Ιησους cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me but on Him that sent Me.[45] And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me.[46] I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.[47] And if any man hear My words and believe not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world but to save the world.[48] He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.[49] For I have not spoken from Myself: but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.[50] And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

John 14:24 He that loveth Me not keepeth not My sayings; and the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto Him, Art thou a king then? Ιησους answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born and for this cause came I into the world: that I should bear witness unto the Truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth My voice.

 

[d taylor]

And this is not the gospel as historically understood and taught by the church and the ECFs. How we live our lives, how we love to put it most accurately, is absolutely tied to whether or not we inherit eternal life. The new covenant is not a release from the obligation for man to be righteous but the means to that very righteousness. It begins as we accept God as revealed by His Son, as we come to know Him, IOW. This results in faith which now means direct fellowship with the Source of all righteousness: with He who is love. That faith-born union is the essence of man's justice or righteousness; it's what we were made for, and is meant to bring us into true righteousness, into loving as He does. Justice is not only restored to God's creation by this love, but it's brought into even greater justice or righteousness and glory yet as it's transformed into His own image. This begins at the point of justification.

“I will put my law in their minds
and write it on their hearts.
I will be their God,
and they will be my people.
No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know the Lord,’
because they will all know me,
from the least of them to the greatest,”
declares the Lord." Jer 31:33-34

And the more we know Him the more we love Him.

Inherit eternal life is not the same as an unbeliever becoming a believer and entering into Eternal Life.

Inheriting eternal life is the reward area that a believer will receive after their earthly life is over. That is done by good works and a well lived life in service to God. It is a life long journey.

But entering into Eternal Life is a one time act of trust placed in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. Done by an unbeliever when they become convinced God's promise is true. That anyone who believes in The Messiah, for God's free gift of Eternal Life, has received Eternal Life at the moment of their belief. They immediately cross over from death to life, becoming a born again child of God.

 

[Ligurian]

In John 14:24, Jesus said that his teachings were not his own, but that of the Father, so he did not depart from what the Father taught. Forsaking the law is also forsaking the God whose nature is testified about by it, so it is the same as turning to other gods, which is why Deuteronomy 13:1-5 contrasts going after other gods with keeping God's commandments.


Speaking about the Gospel going out to the nations instead has a similar meaning. In Matthew 10:5-7, Jesus did not yet send his disciple out to the nations, but that changed with the Great Commission. It was good news for the Romans to announce a new king with a new kingdom, so the concept of the Gospel was borrowed.

The Father In The New Covenant

Jeremiah 32:39-40 And I will give them another way and another heart to fear Me continually, and that for good to them and their children after them.[40] And I will make with them an Everlasting Covenant, which I will by no means turn away from them, and I will put My fear into their heart that they may not depart from Me.LXX

Isaiah 59:21 And this shall be My Covenant with them, said the Lord: My Spirit which is upon Thee, and the words which I have put in Thy mouth shall never fail from Thy mouth, nor from the mouth of Thy seed, for the Lord has spoken it henceforth and for ever.LXX Matthew 24:35

Deuteronomy 18:18-19 I will raise up to them a prophet of their brethren like thee, and I will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them as I shall Command Him.[19] And whatever man shall not hearken to whatsoever words that prophet shall speak in My name, I will take vengeance on him.LXX

Matthew 21:37-39 But last of all He sent unto them His Son saying, They will reverence My Son.
John 5:43 I am come in My Father's name, and ye receive Me not
John 7:16 My doctrine is not Mine, but His that sent Me.

John 12:44-50 Ιησους cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me but on Him that sent Me.[45] And he that seeth Me seeth Him that sent Me.[46] I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness.[47] And if any man hear My words and believe not, I judge him not, for I came not to judge the world but to save the world.[48] He that rejecteth Me and receiveth not My words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.[49] For I have not spoken from Myself: but the Father which sent Me, He gave Me a Commandment, what I should say and what I should speak.[50] And I know that His Commandment is Life Everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto Me, so I speak.

John 14:24 the word which ye hear is not Mine, but the Father's which sent Me.
John 17:17 Sanctify them through Thy truth: Thy word is truth.
John 18:37 that I should bear witness unto the Truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth My voice.
___________________
So... since the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel have been scattered among the nations, where else would the Risen Lord have sent His previously-Lost Sheep living in Galilee, but into the nations for which He now had all authority? And because He told them to disciple these people with the same message He had given to them, then Matthew 10:5-7 is part of that so-called Great Commission... making 'don't go to the uncircumcision' an intrinsic part of that message.

Paul and his crowd had a other mission, with a far different gospel to teach the gentiles.

 

[fhansen]

Inherit eternal life is not the same as an unbeliever becoming a believer and entering into Eternal Life.

Inheriting eternal life is the reward area that a believer will receive after their earthly life is over. That is done by good works and a well lived life in service to God. It is a life long journey.

But entering into Eternal Life is a one time act of trust placed in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life. Done by an unbeliever when they become convinced God's promise is true. That anyone who believes in The Messiah, for God's free gift of Eternal Life, has received Eternal Life at the moment of their belief. They immediately cross over from death to life, becoming a born again child of God.

Nah, gain eternal life, inherit eternal life, enter life, salvation, attain to the resurrection, it's all the same. And we can lose it by compromising our justified state, by walking and living unjustly.