SALVATION---instant, or process?

[Shimon]

Reformationist:

I think you and I are in agreement more than you realize.  In online discussion forums such as this, we sometimes get so involved in debating that we fail to realize our similar our views are.

Basically, what I'm saying is that Moses taught the children of Israel that if any "prophet" or "dreamer of dreams" came along, performing signs and miracles and claimed to sent by God, yet taught the children of Israel to abandon the Torah, they were to recognize him as a false prophet/false teacher/false Messiah:

Deuteronomy 13:1-5:  If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or a wonder, And the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spake unto thee, saying, Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul. Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him.  And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken to turn [you] away from the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed you out of the house of bondage, to thrust thee out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put the evil away from the midst of thee.

Then along comes Yeshua, performing signs and miracles, claiming to be the Messiah, and yet Christianity holds that he taught they we've been "freed from the Torah."  See the problem here?  By saying that Yeshua "freed us from the need to obey the Torah" one is saying that Yeshua *CANNOT* be the Messiah. 

Of course, I believe that Yeshua *IS* the Messiah, therefore I understand that He could not possibly have "freed us from the Torah."

That is one the fundamental reasons why Traditional Judaism does not accept Yeshua as the Messiah today -- because the "Jesus" that has been presented to them is fundamentally unsound.  They know that the Messiah would not teach against the Torah, and yet the "Jesus" that is presented does exactly that.

But Yeshua's Own words were that He had *NOT* come to abolish the Torah:

Matthew 5:17-18: Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.  For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth are still with us, therefore the commandments of the Torah are still in effect.

Suppose you and I are out rock-climbing, and I slip and fall.  As I'm plummeting to my death you reach out and grab me and pull me to safety.  That is being saved.

That is being saved regardless of whether or not one chooses to be saved.  God gave us the choice of whether or not to accept His salvation.  We have the free will to choose to accept Him or reject Him.

Kinda forgetting one itsy bitsy little detail.  Jesus did not have a nature that was enslaved to it's sinfulness.

No, I haven't forgotten that at all.

The "New Covenant" is the the Torah written on the heart = a life governed by Torah.

All who have the Torah written on the heart participate as First Fruits of the New Covenant.

The Torah is written on the heart by faith in Messiah Yeshua.  This saving faith is produced by the Holy Spirit Who gives us a new heart = a willingness and power to obey God and keep His commandments of the Torah.


Shimon

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Shimon
I think you and I are in agreement more than you realize.

Maybe so.

In online discussion forums such as this, we sometimes get so involved in debating that we fail to realize our similar our views are.

No we don't.  I disagree.  (Just kidding by the way!  Just thought I'd perpetuate what you just said! ) 

Then along comes Yeshua, performing signs and miracles, claiming to be the Messiah, and yet Christianity holds that he taught they we've been "freed from the Torah."

I am a Christian and I am certainly not taught that.

That is one the fundamental reasons why Traditional Judaism does not accept Yeshua as the Messiah today -- because the "Jesus" that has been presented to them is fundamentally unsound.

True as that may be I don't believe that's why "Traditional Jews" don't accept Jesus as the Messiah.  Not to mention, to discount Jesus as the Messiah simply because another culture, of fallen humans, presents Him a certain way is "fundamentally unsound."  They should look at the evidence presented and see if Jesus fits the bill, which He does.

They know that the Messiah would not teach against the Torah, and yet the "Jesus" that is presented does exactly that.

Well, I think that to make a blanket statement about what Christianity does is an unwise move.  If "Traditional Jews" would look at what the different viewpoints of Christians believe they would find some truth.  Not all Christians believe Jesus came to "put away the Law." 

That is being saved regardless of whether or not one chooses to be saved.  God gave us the choice of whether or not to accept His salvation.  We have the free will to choose to accept Him or reject Him.

Uh, yeah.  Tell me again where it says that God gives us a choice that we could make independant of our fallen nature?  The entire Bible makes a plethora of statements regarding the enslavement of fallen man to his sinful nature that should, for any who care to study it, obliterate the concept of man's free will.  It sounds to me that you have more in line with mainstream Christianity than with my views.

No, I haven't forgotten that at all.

If you believe that any, much less all, men can cast off their sinfulness just because of a desire to do so that their fallen nature doesn't have in the first place then you don't understand the fallen nature of man.  The fallen nature of man has so extended to his every thought, action and desire that the concept of freely coming to Christ is unbiblical.  We are either slaves to our sinful nature (fallen), or, we have been given all things pertaining to life and godliness (regenerated).  Not all of mankind has been given all things that pertain to life and godliness, so their ability to "desire a relationship with their Creator" is not existant:

Romans 8:7,8
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

When we are born we have a "carnal mind."  We are God's enemy.  We are of the flesh.  Anything we could do in an effort to obtain God's favor, our attempts at righteousness, are an abomination to the Lord:

Proverbs 15:8
The sacrifice of the wicked is an abomination to the LORD,
        But the prayer of the upright is His delight.

What is it that makes us righteous?  Our obedience?  Is any fallen man righteous?  That's not what the Word says:

Romans 3:10
As it is written:
        "There is none righteous, no, not one

How many are righteous?  None.

It is God who makes His chosen righteous by accrediting them with the righteousness of Christ:

1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

The "New Covenant" is the the Torah written on the heart = a life governed by Torah.

All who have the Torah written on the heart participate as First Fruits of the New Covenant.

I agree completely.  However, God did not "write the Truth" on the heart of all men and until He did so to us we did not seek after Him either:

Romans 3:11
There is none who understands;
        There is none who seeks after God.

How many seek after Him?  None.

The Torah is written on the heart by faith in Messiah Yeshua.  This saving faith is produced by the Holy Spirit Who gives us a new heart = a willingness and power to obey God and keep His commandments of the Torah.

Again, I agree.  However, this "saving faith" is a gift from God that not all men are given.

God bless

 

[Shimon]

Reformationist:

I am a Christian and I am certainly not taught that.

Okay, it looks like we have some sort of misunderstanding right here. Let's get this one cleared up, because if I respond to your other points with the same misunderstanding, then we'll just be going around in circles.

Do you or do you not observe the Sabbath? Do you worship on Saturday or on Sunday? Why?

Do you or do you not observe the kosher laws? Why or why not?

Do you or do you not observe the biblical festivals (Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Shavuot, Yom Teruah, Yom Kippur, and Sukkot)? Why or why not?

Do you or do you not observe Christmas and Easter?  Why or why not?

Shimon

 

[Knight]

Originally posted by Shimon
Reformationist:



Okay, it looks like we have some sort of misunderstanding right here. Let's get this one cleared up, because if I respond to your other points with the same misunderstanding, then we'll just be going around in circles.

Do you or do you not observe the Sabbath? Do you worship on Saturday or on Sunday? Why?

Do you or do you not observe the kosher laws? Why or why not?

Do you or do you not observe the biblical festivals (Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Shavuot, Yom Teruah, Yom Kippur, and Sukkot)? Why or why not?

Do you or do you not observe Christmas and Easter?  Why or why not?

Shimon

 

I don't know Ref's position on this but I'll refer you to Romans 15. Paul deals with these very issues in the early Roman church where Jew and Gentile were being combined for the first time in a long time.

 

[Shimon]

Knight:

I don't know Ref's position on this but I'll refer you to Romans 15. Paul deals with these very issues in the early Roman church where Jew and Gentile were being combined for the first time in a long time.

I'll refer you to Acts 24:14:

Acts 24:14: But this I do admit to you: I worship the God of our fathers in accordance with the Way (which they call a sect). I continue to believe everything that accords with the Torah and everything written in the Prophets.

So are you telling me that Paul lied at his own trial?

Shimon

 

[Knight]

Are you telling me that he lied in his letter to the Romans?

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Shimon
Do you or do you not observe the Sabbath?

Shimon, every day belongs to the Lord.  I try to observe every day in a way that is glorifying to God.

Romans 14:4-6
Who are you to judge another's servant?  To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.  He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.  He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

 Do you worship on Saturday or on Sunday? Why?

I worship God every day of the week.  Don't you? 

Do you or do you not observe the kosher laws? Why or why not?

Not sure what you're talking about?  Do you mean not eating pork?  Stuff like that? 

Do you or do you not observe the biblical festivals (Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Shavuot, Yom Teruah, Yom Kippur, and Sukkot)? Why or why not?

Observe them how?  I don't know what most of them are. 

Do you or do you not observe Christmas and Easter?  Why or why not?

Not as religious holidays.  They do serve to make me concentrate more closely on God, but they are just days. 

God bless

 

[Shimon]

Are you telling me that he lied in his letter to the Romans?

Of course not, I'm saying you don't understand what Paul was talking about in Romans 11. Show me some verses where you think Paul is saying we don't have to obey the Torah, and I'll show you what he's really saying.

Shimon

 

[Julie]

For us today in the church age  it is instant. 

But there is times in the Bible where it was and will be a process.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Julie
For us today in the church age  it is instant. 

But there is times in the Bible where it was and will be a process.

So you believe that God's method of salvation is different at different times?  Where is that in the Bible?

 

[Knight]

Originally posted by Shimon
Of course not, I'm saying you don't understand what Paul was talking about in Romans 11. Show me some verses where you think Paul is saying we don't have to obey the Torah, and I'll show you what he's really saying.

Shimon

It's Romans 14 not 15 as I originally said. My bad.

I know what Paul says in this passage. Why don't you read it and tell me what you think he's saying?

Romans 14

<SUP>1</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions.
<SUP>2</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only.
<SUP>3</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
<SUP>4</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
<SUP>5</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
<SUP>6</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God.
<SUP>7</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
<SUP>8</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
<SUP>9</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
<SUP>10</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.
<SUP>11</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;For it is written,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;"AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
<SUP>12</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.
<SUP>13</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this--not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.
<SUP>14</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
<SUP>15</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.
<SUP>16</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil;
<SUP>17</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.
<SUP>18</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men.
<SUP>19</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another.
<SUP>20</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense.
<SUP>21</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles.
<SUP>22</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves.
<SUP>23</SUP>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.


Seems pretty clear to me. Christ has made all days holy and all food clean.

 

[Reformationist]

Originally posted by Knight
Seems pretty clear to me. Christ has made all days holy and all food clean.

Yup.&nbsp; Pretty clear.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Shimon
Of course not, I'm saying you don't understand what Paul was talking about in Romans 11. Show me some verses where you think Paul is saying we don't have to obey the Torah, and I'll show you what he's really saying.

Shimon

I use the NASB and the NKJV and neither of them say Torah in Acts 24:14.&nbsp; Both versions use the word Law.

Ephesians 2:15 "having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,..."

So if you can show me that the law is the Torah, you can see that it and it's law has been abolished.&nbsp; Do I keep the commandments?&nbsp; Not as well as&nbsp;I should, but by the grace of God I do try and succeed more often than not.&nbsp; Do I eat pork?&nbsp; Only with spicy/sweet BBQ sauce.&nbsp; Do&nbsp;I observe Jewish holiday or tradition?&nbsp; No, I'm not Jewish.&nbsp; But I am an Israelite.

 

[Gabriel]

Clear as the water I wash my pork down with.

 

[Shimon]

Reformationist:

Why is it that everyone else seems to be able to reply right away, but when I try to post, I receive a message stating the moderator has specified that users can only post once every 30 seconds?? I've been trying to post for the past several minutes, and it's been a LOT more than 30 seconds!

Shimon, every day belongs to the Lord.&nbsp; I try to observe every day in a way that is glorifying to God.

God commanded us to observe the Sabbath and keep it holy.&nbsp; He commanded us to do no work on the Sabbath, it is a day we are to rest.&nbsp; I take it from your reply that do not observe the Sabbath?&nbsp; If so, then you are transgressing His commandment.

Romans 14:4-6
Who are you to judge another's servant?&nbsp; To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.&nbsp; He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.&nbsp; He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

Paul is certainly not telling us that there is no need to observe the biblical holidays. In fact, he even told us to continue to observe the feast of Passover:

1 Corinthians 5:7-8:&nbsp; Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened [bread] of sincerity and truth.

In Acts 20:16, we find Paul hurrying to Jerusalem in order to be there in time to celebrate the Feast of Shavuot:

Acts 20:16:&nbsp; For Paul had determined to sail by Ephesus, because he would not spend the time in Asia: for he hasted, if it were possible for him, to be at Jerusalem the day of Pentecost.

What Paul is saying in the verse that you provided is that some people considered the Feast of Passover as a holier day than other holy days such as Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonment), while others believed that Yom Kippur was a holier day than Passover.

I worship God every day of the week.&nbsp; Don't you?

You are avoiding the question.&nbsp; Do you attend “church” and worship God with your congregation on Saturday or on Sunday?&nbsp;

Not sure what you're talking about?&nbsp; Do you mean not eating pork?&nbsp; Stuff like that?

Yes, that’s exactly what I’m asking.&nbsp; Do you swine-flesh?&nbsp; Shellfish?&nbsp; If so, then you are transgressing the commandments of God.

Observe them how?&nbsp; I don't know what most of them are.

Obviously, if you don’t even know what they are, then you are not observing them and are therefore transgressing the commandments of God.&nbsp; Obviously, your church does not teach the Torah.&nbsp; I mean... if your church teaches Torah as you say, then how could you not know what these feasts are?

Not as religious holidays.&nbsp; They do serve to make me concentrate more closely on God, but they are just days.

And yet I’ve already pointed out to you that God commanded us *NOT* to learn the way of the heathen and *NOT* to worship Him as they worship their gods.&nbsp; We are *NOT* to adopt their traditions and practices into our worship of Him.&nbsp; I showed you it is exactly the same transgression that the children of Israel committed when they built the golden calf and dedicated a feast to YHVH.

So, in essence, you’re telling me that your church doesn’t teach you that it’s okay to transgress God’s commandments, and yet you proven exactly the opposite.&nbsp; It *does* teach that it’s okay to transgress God’s Torah because each of the observance I mentioned above are commandments of the Torah.

Shimon

 

[cthoma11]

Originally posted by Knight
Seems pretty clear to me. Christ has made all days holy and all food clean. [/B]

I too have wondered how Messianic Jews reconcile the verses from Knight's post as well as those&nbsp;in Acts 10:10-14. Peter's vision of the sheet, with until then, clean and unclean animals that God pronounces clean and OK to eat with their insistance on the old testament dietary laws.

Looking forward to the response.

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Reformationist
Yup.&nbsp; Pretty clear.

Clear as the water I wash my pork down with.

 

[Shimon]

Knight:

Okay, let's take them on-at-a-time:

Romans 14:1-3:&nbsp; Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him.

Okay, in order to understand this, we need to understand what pagan religions Paul was dealing with in his day.&nbsp; What he is speaking of here in this verse is the same subject he is speaking of 1 Timothy 4:

1 Timothy 4:1-5: The Spirit expressly states that in the acharit-kayamim some people will apostatize from the faith by paying attention to deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come from the hypocrisy of liars whose own consciences have been burned, as if with a red-hot branding iron. They forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods which God created to be eaten with thanksgiving by those who have come to trust and to know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing received with thanksgiving needs to be rejected, because the word of God and prayer make it holy.

Okay, first notice that he says that certain people have listened to the teachings of “deceiving spirits,” “demons,” and “liars.” The first teaching that he mentions is that they were forbidding marriage. Marriage is a covenantal relationship between a man and woman which God ordained, and yet there were people teachings that it was a “sin” to marry. Clearly, *they* were teaching against Torah.&nbsp; We can see right away that he was dealing with a pagan religion and not Judaism.

Next, he mentions that these people were teaching “abstinence from foods which God created to be eaten.” God did not create pork and shellfish to be eaten. Paul is saying that these people, whom we already know listened to deceiving spirits and taught against Torah, were telling the Jews to abstain from foods that God *did* create to be eaten, such as lamb and beef. These people were teaching that one should be a vegetarian and abstain from *ALL* meats, including those which God had already declared to be clean and to be received with thanksgiving.

On its face, I suspect the verse refers to the precursors of the Gnostics, who thought that the flesh was an evil thing to be reviled rather than a good thing created by God. It's similar to the Platonic ideal of perfection, and manifested itself in other Platonic systems (including the Manichee philosophy embraced by St. Augustine before his conversion). As a consequence of their contempt for the flesh, they would not marry (as that was a fleshly act relating to the creation of more flesh), and they would not eat flesh.

Another possibility is that they were vegetarians for similar reasons that some people are vegetarians today -- perhaps they simply didn't believe it was right to eat other animals.

In any case, it is clear that Paul is *NOT* declaring meats such as pork and shellfish to be "clean," he is saying "do not declare unclean what God has already made clean."&nbsp; God had already declared lamb and beef to be clean.

Romans 14:4-6
Who are you to judge another's servant?&nbsp; To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.&nbsp; He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it.&nbsp; He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks.

I've already explained these verses in my reply to Reformationist above, but I'll repeat it here.

What Paul is saying in the verse is that some people considered the Feast of Passover as a holier day than other holy days such as Yom Kippur (the Day of Atonment), while others believed that Yom Kippur was a holier day than Passover.

If you have any more *specific* questions, let me know.

Shimon

 

[Gabriel]

Originally posted by Shimon
dp

&nbsp;

Right back at ya Shimon.

 

[Shimon]

Right back at ya Shimon.

Huh? Originally, the formatting for my post went haywire like Knight's above. I had written "dp" (meaning "double post") because I thought I was going to have to post it again. I managed to edit it and get the formatting right, however.

Shimon