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SALVATION---instant, or process?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Ben johnson, Nov 10, 2002.

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  1. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

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    Reformationist:

    Basically, the main difference is that one is Torah-submissive and the other one isn't.

    Messianic Judaism accepts Yeshua as Messiah.  We observe the Sabbath, the biblical Festivals (Passover, Shavuot, Yom Kippur, Sukkot, etc.), eat kosher, etc.  It is identical to Judaism, but Messianics accept Yeshua as Messiah.  It is the same form of congregation as existed in Paul's day when believers met in the same synagogue as other Jews.

    Shimon
     
  2. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    What's "Torah submissive?"
     
  3. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    I've always been interested in Messianic Judism.

    Shimon,
    Maybe you could open a new thread where we could all ask questions? :)
     
  4. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

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    Michie:

    Heh!  Well, I'm not exactly sure what to say if I open a thread.  Perhaps you could start one by asking some questions?  I'd be more than happy to answer any questions you might have.  I'm still just a "babe" in Messianic Judaism and am still learning.  But, I've learned a lot in a short time (about 2 or 3 years).  :)

    Shimon
     
  5. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

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    Reformationist:

    Torah-submissive = Torah obedient.  It is the willingness to submit ourselves to a life governed by Torah (i.e. submitting ourselves to God's Will).

    I prefer the term Torah-submissive over Torah-obedient because it conveys the idea of a willing and submissive heart.  As Yeshua said, for one to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, one must come as a child.

    Shimon
     
  6. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    So basically you are saying that Messianic Jews have a "willingness to submit themselves to a life governed by God's Will" and Christians don't?:

    Sounds a bit presumptive, don't you think?  I believe most Christians would disagree with you on that.

    God bless

     
     
  7. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

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    Reformationist:

    Are you willing to observe the Sabbath?  Are you willing to observe the kosher laws?  Are you willing to stop observing pagan holidays such as Christmas and Easter and instead observe the holidays that God commanded (e.g. Passover, Unleaved Bread, First Fruits, Shavuot, Yom Teruah, Yom Kippur and Sukkot)?

    Shimon
     
  8. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Get real.  You don't put your faith in Christ as your Savior.  You put your faith in "not observing pagan holidays" and "observing Passover, unleaved bread, first fruits, shavuot, Yom Teruah, Yom Kippur and Sukkot."  You put your faith in "eating kosher", in "observing the Sabbath."  For that matter I do observe the Sabbath.  I may not do it like a Jew, or even a Messianic Jew.  Every day is God's day Shimon.  Our obedience is A RESULT of our salvation, NOT A MEANS OF OBTAINING IT.  If it is a means, then that is what you put your faith in, the means.

    God bless
     
  9. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

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    Very, very untrue.  I place my faith in Yeshua by obeying his commandments.  Yeshua own words were "If you love Me, keep My commandments."

    God told us not to worship Him in the same manner as the heathen:

    But the children of Israel disobeyed and did exactly what they were told not to do:

    Who did they dedicate the feast to?  They proclaimed it as a feast to THE LORD (YHVH).  As far as they were concerned, they were merely worshipping God in the same manner which they had learned from the Egyptians.  Was God pleased?  No, He wanted to toast them all.

    Christianity has committed the very same transgression.  Christianity has adopted the practices and traditions of other religions into their worship of Him.  They celebrate "Christmas" on December 25th.  December 25th is the birthday of Tammuz.  It is the birthday of the Egyptian sun-god Ra.  It is the birthday of the Roman sun-god Mithra.  It is the birthday of Baal and of Molech.

    Easter is the celebration of the Goddess of Fertility (Ashtoreth, Ishtar).

    Christianity even celebrates Halloween!

    Do you understand what a "chukah" is?  It is the Hebrew word which means "sign" or "mark").  It is the Mark of Elohim.  Passover is a "chukah."  The Sabbath is a "chukah."  The lamb's blood, which the Israelites painted on their doorposts in Egypt was a "chukah." These are the Marks of Elohim, as opposed to the Mark of the Beast.  They serve to identify those who have separated themselves from the world and have chosen to follow Him and obey His commandments.

    Shimon
     
  10. reeann

    reeann Trust and Obey

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    i just want to say, i am finding the discussion between you two facinating and edifying. please continue! :)
     
  11. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Shimon,

    Just so you know, I believe that keeping God's commandments is important.  The apparent difference is that you seem to feel that the things you do are what endears you to God, whereas I believe that it is God who brought about reconciliation.  Not based on the actions of a fallen humanity, but rather because it pleased Him to do so.  You see, when we are saved it is important to keep God's commandments.  However, it is more akin to the disobedience of a child.  They are just a member of the family who will be admonished and trained to follow the laws of the authority over them.  It's not an issue of whether they are part of the family or how they got to be that way.  They became part of the family through no effort of their own.  It is God who works in us the will and ability to do for His good pleasure.  He will complete the good work He started in us.

    Keep His commandments, yes, but recognize that it is His grace that is the means of your salvation, not your keeping of the commandments.

    God bless
     
  12. Michie

    Michie Human rights begin in the womb. Supporter

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    Shimon,
    Alot of people don't know alot about Messianic Jews & some have not even heard of such a thing.

    I started a thread here:
    http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28184

    So people can ask questions & learn.

    As I said before, I've always been interested in this subject but the only info I get about it is From Randy Weiss.

    When I was asking about it I found the closest town with a Messianic Jewish congregation from me is about 90 miles away.

    I'd be interested to hear your thoughts & answers to other's questions, including my own. :)

    Thank you Shimon. :)

    Michie
     
  13. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    OK, most people hold to "salvation is KNOWABLE". For those who do not (cited in the quotebox above), I would like to ask them to comment on a verse from Scripture:

    The one who believes in the Son of God hs the witness in himself; the one who does not believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed the witness that God has borne about His Son. And the witness is this, that God has given us eternal ife, and this life is in His Son. He who HAS the Son HAS THE LIFE; he who does not have the Son of God has not the life. I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may KNOW YOU HAVE ETERNAL LIFE."

    Thanx in advance for your answers...

    (and, Shimon---can your DOG really TYPE???)

    1Jn5:10-13
     
  14. Andrew

    Andrew Well-Known Member

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    "OK, most people hold to "salvation is KNOWABLE".

    Yes it is. Here's another verse to back that up:

    Rom 8:16
    The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
     
  15. reeann

    reeann Trust and Obey

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    I have to add this one!
    John 3:
    16For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
    18"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
     
  16. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
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    Reformationist:

    This, I think, is probably the point of confusion.  I, too, believe that it is God who brought about reconciliation.  He reached out to us, we didn't reach out to Him.

    But what I'm saying is that the Torah is the method by which He reached out to us.  The Torah is what teaches us about God's nature.  It teaches us about His love, His holiness, His justice, His power and strength, etc.

    The Torah is the very standard which defines sin.  Just as the Apostle Paul says, we wouldn't even know what sin is, if God hadn't told us through the Torah:

    So, what I'm saying is that Yeshua died for the forgiveness of sin, not to abolish the very standard which defines sin.

    Think of it this way:  Suppose you and I are out rock-climbing, and I slip and fall onto a small precipice.  I'm hanging on for dear life, and could fall at any moment.  You stretch out your hand and say "Take my hand and I'll pull you up."  If I refuse to grab your hand, it's either because I don't trust you, or because I'm determined to save myself.  Either way, I doomed.

    God's gift of the Torah is His stretching out His hand.  Our acceptance of the Torah is our taking His hand.  Now, one might well say "It was Yeshua's death which was God's stretching out His hand, and it is our acceptance of Yeshua as a Savior which our taking His hand," and to that, I say:  Yes, that is very true.  But Yeshua was the fulfillment of the *Torah*.  It's a package deal, you don't accept one without the other. 

    The Jews accept the Written Word while rejecting the Living Word to which it pointed.  Christians accept the Living Word while rejecting the very Written Word which He embodied.  It's the same mistake on either side, but in opposite directions.

    We are to live as Yeshua lived.  We are to walk as Yeshua walked.  Yeshua lived and walked by Torah.

    Shimon
     
  17. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

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    Reeann:

    I would also add the verse at the end of the chapter:

    ;)

    Shimon
     
  18. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

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    Michie:

    Okay, thanks! I'm headed over there right now. :)

    Shimon
     
  19. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Well, this and my lack of understanding of what a Messianic Jew is. ;) :D

    I would agree except I'd modify it to say that it is one method by which He reached out to us.  I believe, due to the fallen nature of man, that the Law would, and is, nothing but a book to those whom He has not first regenerated.

    I agree with this.  I don't know what purpose you think the Law serves but I believe it to be how we grow to know God and form a stronger, more faith based, relationship with Him. 

    I agree completely. 

    Well, oddly enough, that is the exact same theme presented in mainstream Christianity.  Where I differ is that when I read passages that say "man was dead in his tresspasses" I know what dead means, and it doesn't mean "able to reach out and take His hand."  That's a works based philosophy.  To truly understand what it means to be saved when we were God's enemy we must understand that we wouldn't, and didn't, reach out and grab His hand.  We were dead.  The truth of Scripture is that we were dead and unable and unwilling to reach out and grab His hand.  We were doomed and didn't even realize it, at least not in the eternal sense.  A more accurate representation along those lines would be this:

    Suppose you and I are out rock-climbing, and I slip and fall.  As I'm plummeting to my death you reach out and grab me and pull me to safety.  That is being saved.

    To elevate our own "acceptance" of God's Word as equal, or even contributory, in our salvation severely lessens what "being saved" really is.  In your analogy, the person who fell wasn't yet dead, or on his way to death.  Theoretically, he could have pulled himself to safety.  That's not scriptural.  We aren't born on the precipice.  We are born plummeting towards the earth (our physical death) having already had a heart attack that killed us (our spiritual death).  Now, can you imagine someone in that condition reaching our and grabbing God's hand and accepting His salvitic work?

    Agreed.

    Aside from insulting this is very persumptuous.

    There are only two sides to this?  Let me guess, there's a third side, the side that's "getting it right" and that side is Messianic Judaism, right? 

    Kinda forgetting one itsy bitsy little detail.  Jesus did not have a nature that was enslaved to it's sinfulness.  Nor was He born of the seed of a man.  Have you ever met a person, ever, that never sinned?  Then what?  No one can live as Jesus lived?  Our salvation is not based on our ability to not sin.  It's His grace that saves us.  Yes, we should try to follow God's commandments.  However, every single person who ever lived, except Jesus, broke the Law.  The only three people that were ever created/conceived that were not of the seed of a man, who were not born with the stain of original sin, whose very natures weren't enslaved to unrighteousness were Christ, Adam, and Eve.  It's not about "keeping the Law."  It's about His grace.  Keeping the Law is great.  Go for it, strive for it, desire to keep the Law.  But don't base you salvation on how well you do?

    If that is not what you are doing, then I guess that doesn't apply to you.

    By the way, you are an extremely intelligent and well spoken/written individual and I'm glad you are here posting.

    God bless
     
  20. Gabriel

    Gabriel I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

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