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SALVATION---instant, or process?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Ben johnson, Nov 10, 2002.

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  1. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    NO OFFENSE, but if Jesus atoned for your sins the result is to keep the commandments, not our means of acceptance.  You know, God's Word tells us what the fruit of the Spirit is:

    Galatians 5:22,23
    But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

    I don't read anything in their about "not eating pork" or observing a particular festival.  Look bro, you can rely on your works if you want to.  I think it's great that that spawns from your desire to please God.  However, just because I give presents at Christmas instead of lighting eight candles doesn't mean that I'm sinning.

    God bless
     
  2. Gabriel

    Gabriel I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

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    It is by grace you have been saved through faith, not by works, lest any man should boast.

    You appear boastful in your works and as if you are looking down on us for not working out our salvation in a like manner.

    Maybe that is not how you feel, but it is how you come a cross.
     
  3. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Serious how?  Salvitically?
     
  4. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
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    Gabriel:


    The Jews *never* believed that a person was saved through Torah-obedience.

    I repeat:  The Jews *NEVER* believed that one was saved through "works."

    Instead, what they believed was that God had granted salvation through His covenant with Abraham.  They believed that salvation was granted to His descendants, and therefore, one obtained salvation simply by being born a Jew.

    This is what they wrote in the Mishnah:

    This quote from the Mishnah says that a place in the world-to-come is based upon a status of righteousness. Israel, they believed, had a place in the world-to-come because “Your people are all righteous.” What did the Sages mean by this statement? They often spoke of Israel as wayward and rebellious, so it is clear they do not mean that all Israelites were without sin. Rather, righteousness was attributed to all who were members of the covenant. Righteousness, they believed, was a matter of God’s willingness to reckon the pious deeds of the fathers to their offspring and to forgive and show mercy when Israel sins. Thus, the place in the world-to-come which belongs to all of Israel they believed was a matter of God’s grace, not something earned or merited.

    In other words, they believed that, in order to be saved, one needed to be a member of the Covenant Family.  Jews, they believed, were already members of the Covenant Family.  Gentiles, they believed, could become members of the Covenant Family by becoming "Jewish" through the ritual of circumcision.  The Hebrew word for "circumcision" is "b'rit milah" which literally translates as "covenant in the flesh."

    So, in essence, they believed that salvation was a matter of "ethnic status."  This is why we read so often in the Apostolic scriptures that there were "certain Jews" who declared "unless you are circumcised, you cannot be saved."  They believed that a Gentile had to be circumcised in order to become a member of the Covenant.

    Paul understood that the Covenant was made with Abraham *before* the sign of circumcision was ever given.  The covenant was made with Abraham because of his *faith* and not because he was circumcised.

    So, when Paul speaks of "salvation by works" such as the verse you provided, he is saying that one doesn't become a member of the Covenant Family through ritual.  It is by *faith* alone.


    Reformationist:

    One of the major difficulties we encounter in our discussion of “trust,” “believe,” and “faith/faithful,” is that there is no corresponding verbal form of “faith” in the English language. We have no way of saying that one “faithed” or that someone is “faithing” in God. Yet in both the Hebrew and the Greek the word group expressing the concept of faith also contains a verb built on the same root.To put it simply, noun and verb are cognate. For example, the Hebrew verb "aman," which means “to be supported,” from which we derive the verb “to believe,” has the corresponding noun "emunah," which means “faith” or “faithful.” Likewise, the Greek verb "pisteuo", which means “to believe,” has the corresponding noun "pistis," which means “faith” or “faithful.” Unfortunately, many English readers do not realize that “believing,” “having faith,” and “being faithful” all derive from the same word group whether in the Hebrew or the Greek.

    To put it another way, the Apostles never envisioned a situation where someone was accredited as having genuine “faith” but whose life did not evidence “faithfulness.”

    Shimon

     
     
  5. Gabriel

    Gabriel I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

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    I am getting bored.  Are you ever going to do the above?
     
  6. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
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    Gabriel:

    I just gave you a very lengthy reply to post #87 in post #104

    Shimon
     
  7. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
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    Reformationist:

    Yes, if you teach that one does not have to obey the Torah, you are teaching them to reject the Marriage Covenant. The Torah *is* the Marriage Covenant. Therefore, if you reject the Torah -- the Marriage Covenant -- you have rejected the Marriage and have rejected the Groom (Yeshua).

    It is not enough to hear the message of the Torah. The very clear message of the scriptures is to "hear and do."

    Shimon
     
  8. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Are you honestly saying that if someone does not adhere to the things you mentioned then they cannot be saved?  Please tell me I'm wrong.

    God bless
     
  9. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

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    I'm not saying that a person won't get into heaven if they eat swine-flesh. I'm saying that a person will get to heaven *quicker.*

    God gave us the kosher laws to teach us how to eat healthy and live longer.

    He gave us the Sabbath to guarantee at least one day a week in which we can spend time with Him and spend time with our families. Our natural inclination to is get hung up on our daily lives, constantly trying to "get ahead" that we can easily neglect our families in the process.

    Also, the Sabbath and the Biblical Festivals are *prophetic* in nature. As Paul wrote, they are shadow-pictures of "good things to come." Observing these festivals prepares us for the prophetic events to come. In fact, without solid training and instruction in the Torah, one cannot possibly understand the Book of Revelation, nor can they truly understand what it is that the apostles are teaching.


    Shimon
     
  10. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    These statements seem to contradict each other.  That is, unless, you don't believe that getting circumcised so that you can become a member of God's family a work?

    I understand that faith is an action.  I'm not saying our works aren't important.  I'm saying they aren't what earns us salvation.  They are a result of our salvation.

    You, however, are saying that "not eating pork" and observing ritualistic holidays are evidence of our faith, and if you do not do them, then you are obviously not saved.  You put the emphasis on your works justifying you rather than it being about the grace of God that justifies.  Slice it how you want to bro, but that's what you're saying.

    God bless
     
  11. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Riiight.  Because pork is so much worse for you than a hamburger.  Moderation man, that's the key. 

    Our natural inclination is to get legalistic and rely on our ability to keep the Law at every point as our means of salvation.  This causes us to judge our brethren and neglect the 2nd greatest commandment, "love thy neighbor as you love yourself."

    God bless
     
  12. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
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    Gabriel:

    You misunderstand.

    I'm saying that the Jews never believed that they could "work" their way into Heaven through Torah-obedience. They believed they were saved because of their ethnic status in being born Jewish. Gentiles, they believed, could achieve the ethnic status of "Jewish" throught the ritual of circumcision. This wasn't for the purpose of "working" their way into Heaven, but for acquiring the ethnic status of "Jewish."

    Paul taught that the only "status" which made any difference is the status of "in Messiah."

    There is not one set of laws for Jews, and another set of laws for Gentiles. There is only one set of laws for *everybody* and that set of laws is the Torah.

    There is ONE body, ONE Spirit, ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE God, and ONE Father.

    There is neither "Jew" nor "Greek," the only status that makes any difference is the status of "in Messiah."

    God wasn't creating an ethnic group when he chose the Israelites. He was simply creating a set-apart people who would set themselves apart from the world and obey His commandments. It never made any difference whether the person was born a Jew or not, anyone who was willing to obey God and keep His commandments were welcomed into the family of Israel.

    That's what Paul is teaching in the verses you asked about in post #87.

    Shimon
     
  13. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
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    Reformationist:

    So are you saying that eating swine-flesh is more important to you than obeying God? God commanded us not to do it, but you're saying that you are not willing to give it up?

    I gave you a reason why I think God gave us the kosher commandments, but that doesn't mean it's the *only* reason.  A parent oftentimes tells their children "do it because I said so."  If we trust God and have faith in Him, that's the only reason we need:  because He said so.

    As I've stated over and over and over again, ad nauseum, we do not obey the Torah for the purpose of working our way into Heaven, but for the purpose of obeying His commandments. Yeshua said: "If you love Me, keep my commandments." Those commandments include the kosher laws, observance of the Sabbath and of the biblical holy days.  What you appear to be telling me is that you are unwilling to do so.

    If we could get out of "debate mode," I think you would see that we are mostly in agreement.  Both of us believe that it is important to obey God's commandments, the only major area of disagreement is in what exactly those commandments are.

    Shimon
     
  14. Julie

    Julie ONLY JESUS CHRIST SAVES

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    II Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30

    I Samuel 10:6, 11:6; 16:14; Psalm 51:11

     
     
  15. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

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    Julie and Reformationist:

    I missed this question.

    No, I do *not* believe God gave a different method of salvation at different times. There has *always* been only *one* method of salvation: faith in Yeshua.

    The Israelites of the "Old Testament" placed their faith in the Messiah to come. We place our faith in the Messiah that came.

    Animal sacrifices never atoned for sin, they merely illustrated the atoning work that the Messiah would perform. This still holds true today. Animal sacrifices were never abolished, our ability to offer them has been taken away since the only acceptable place to offer is on the Temple Mount. Since there is no temple, we cannot offer them. But, as we read in Acts, the apostles continued to offer them even after Yeshua's death, because they still illustrated the atoning work that He *had* performed.

    Shimon
     
  16. Shimon

    Shimon Shalom!

    247
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    Gabriel and Reformationist:

    By the way, I want to re-emphasize that I'm *not* trying to sound judgmental.

    As I've said, I was not born Jewish, was not raised Jewish, and have not "converted" to Judaism. For the first 37 years of my life, I was a Southern Baptist. I went to a Christian private school, continued my bible education in college, and have even spent some time in Bolivia doing missionary work. I too once believed that I could eat pork and shellfish, work on the Sabbath, and observe Christmas and Easter and not the biblical holy days.

    But it got to a point where the false doctrines that I had been taught led me down a dark road to destruction. I fell and I fell *hard*.

    So, if my comments sound a bit sharp now and then, it because those teachings led me to very depths of perdition, and I know that, had I not sunk so low, I would never have discovered the Torah. God had to strip away everything -- literally *everything* (my house, my belongings, my fiance, and every last dime I had to my name) in order to open my heart to the real truth.

    So, when someone challenges my beliefs, it sometimes ignites a defense mechanism, where I'm kinda shouting "No! No way! We're not going there again!  I've been down that road before!"

    I hope you can understand.

    Shimon
     
  17. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    Not following you.  How is this proof that God uses different methods to save people at different times?
     
  18. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

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    WHAT?!?! Isn't a HAMburger made with HAM???

    :p

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I started a thread intended to polish each of us on the "essence of salvation"---that we all correctly understand Scripture on whether or not we can KNOW we are saved, whether or not we have PEACE about our Heaveny destinies; how did I lose the thread to a discussion of Jewish practice?
     
  19. Reformationist

    Reformationist Non nobis domine sed tuo nomine da gloriam

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    I too often think my works are what saves me.  It's an auto pilot response.  Oftentimes I turn to my works as a method for proving to myself that I'm saved.  You know, you do something sinful and then you try real hard to be real, real obedient so that you can "feel" saved again.  Instead, we should just go back to what we know is true.  We are saved.  We are forgiven.  No, I'm not advocating a lifestyle of sin.  I just think you put way too much emphasis on your works that you lose sight of the fact that you were saved apart from them.  It's called grace. 

    God bless
     
  20. Gabriel

    Gabriel I Once Was Lost, But Now Am Found

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    I sure can.

     :wave: Ben
     
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