SALVATION---instant, or process?

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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Shimon
Not true. I believe we are saved by God's grace because He sent His only begotten Son to die on the cross and atone for our sins. He took the penalty for our transgression upon Himself. If we wish to accept His atonement for our sins, we are to obey His commandments of the Torah.

Shimon

NO OFFENSE, but if Jesus atoned for your sins the result is to keep the commandments, not our means of acceptance.  You know, God's Word tells us what the fruit of the Spirit is:

Galatians 5:22,23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.

I don't read anything in their about "not eating pork" or observing a particular festival.  Look bro, you can rely on your works if you want to.  I think it's great that that spawns from your desire to please God.  However, just because I give presents at Christmas instead of lighting eight candles doesn't mean that I'm sinning.

God bless
 
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Gabriel

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It is by grace you have been saved through faith, not by works, lest any man should boast.

You appear boastful in your works and as if you are looking down on us for not working out our salvation in a like manner.

Maybe that is not how you feel, but it is how you come a cross.
 
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Gabriel:


The Jews *never* believed that a person was saved through Torah-obedience.

I repeat:  The Jews *NEVER* believed that one was saved through "works."

Instead, what they believed was that God had granted salvation through His covenant with Abraham.  They believed that salvation was granted to His descendants, and therefore, one obtained salvation simply by being born a Jew.

This is what they wrote in the Mishnah:

All Israel have a portion in the world-to-come, for it is written, Your people are all righteous; they shall inherit the land for ever, the branch of my planting, the work of my hands, that I may be glorified.

-- m. Sanhedrin 10.1, the gemara is b.Sanhedrin 90a.

This quote from the Mishnah says that a place in the world-to-come is based upon a status of righteousness. Israel, they believed, had a place in the world-to-come because “Your people are all righteous.” What did the Sages mean by this statement? They often spoke of Israel as wayward and rebellious, so it is clear they do not mean that all Israelites were without sin. Rather, righteousness was attributed to all who were members of the covenant. Righteousness, they believed, was a matter of God’s willingness to reckon the pious deeds of the fathers to their offspring and to forgive and show mercy when Israel sins. Thus, the place in the world-to-come which belongs to all of Israel they believed was a matter of God’s grace, not something earned or merited.

In other words, they believed that, in order to be saved, one needed to be a member of the Covenant Family.  Jews, they believed, were already members of the Covenant Family.  Gentiles, they believed, could become members of the Covenant Family by becoming "Jewish" through the ritual of circumcision.  The Hebrew word for "circumcision" is "b'rit milah" which literally translates as "covenant in the flesh."

So, in essence, they believed that salvation was a matter of "ethnic status."  This is why we read so often in the Apostolic scriptures that there were "certain Jews" who declared "unless you are circumcised, you cannot be saved."  They believed that a Gentile had to be circumcised in order to become a member of the Covenant.

Paul understood that the Covenant was made with Abraham *before* the sign of circumcision was ever given.  The covenant was made with Abraham because of his *faith* and not because he was circumcised.

So, when Paul speaks of "salvation by works" such as the verse you provided, he is saying that one doesn't become a member of the Covenant Family through ritual.  It is by *faith* alone.


Reformationist:

One of the major difficulties we encounter in our discussion of “trust,” “believe,” and “faith/faithful,” is that there is no corresponding verbal form of “faith” in the English language. We have no way of saying that one “faithed” or that someone is “faithing” in God. Yet in both the Hebrew and the Greek the word group expressing the concept of faith also contains a verb built on the same root.To put it simply, noun and verb are cognate. For example, the Hebrew verb "aman," which means “to be supported,” from which we derive the verb “to believe,” has the corresponding noun "emunah," which means “faith” or “faithful.” Likewise, the Greek verb "pisteuo", which means “to believe,” has the corresponding noun "pistis," which means “faith” or “faithful.” Unfortunately, many English readers do not realize that “believing,” “having faith,” and “being faithful” all derive from the same word group whether in the Hebrew or the Greek.

To put it another way, the Apostles never envisioned a situation where someone was accredited as having genuine “faith” but whose life did not evidence “faithfulness.”

Shimon

 
 
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Reformationist:

Serious how? Salvitically?

Yes, if you teach that one does not have to obey the Torah, you are teaching them to reject the Marriage Covenant. The Torah *is* the Marriage Covenant. Therefore, if you reject the Torah -- the Marriage Covenant -- you have rejected the Marriage and have rejected the Groom (Yeshua).

It is not enough to hear the message of the Torah. The very clear message of the scriptures is to "hear and do."

Shimon
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Shimon
Yes, if you teach that one does not have to obey the Torah, you are teaching them to reject the Marriage Covenant. The Torah *is* the Marriage Covenant. Therefore, if you reject the Torah -- the Marriage Covenant -- you have rejected the Marriage and have rejected the Groom (Yeshua).

It is not enough to hear the message of the Torah. The very clear message of the scriptures is to "hear and do."

Shimon

Are you honestly saying that if someone does not adhere to the things you mentioned then they cannot be saved?  Please tell me I'm wrong.

God bless
 
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Are you honestly saying that if someone does not adhere to the things you mentioned then they cannot be saved? Please tell me I'm wrong.

I'm not saying that a person won't get into heaven if they eat swine-flesh. I'm saying that a person will get to heaven *quicker.*

God gave us the kosher laws to teach us how to eat healthy and live longer.

He gave us the Sabbath to guarantee at least one day a week in which we can spend time with Him and spend time with our families. Our natural inclination to is get hung up on our daily lives, constantly trying to "get ahead" that we can easily neglect our families in the process.

Also, the Sabbath and the Biblical Festivals are *prophetic* in nature. As Paul wrote, they are shadow-pictures of "good things to come." Observing these festivals prepares us for the prophetic events to come. In fact, without solid training and instruction in the Torah, one cannot possibly understand the Book of Revelation, nor can they truly understand what it is that the apostles are teaching.


Shimon
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Shimon
The Jews *never* believed that a person was saved through Torah-obedience.

I repeat:  The Jews *NEVER* believed that one was saved through "works."

Gentiles, they believed, could become members of the Covenant Family by becoming "Jewish" through the ritual of circumcision.  The Hebrew word for "circumcision" is "b'rit milah" which literally translates as "covenant in the flesh."

These statements seem to contradict each other.  That is, unless, you don't believe that getting circumcised so that you can become a member of God's family a work?

One of the major difficulties we encounter in our discussion of “trust,” “believe,” and “faith/faithful,” is that there is no corresponding verbal form of “faith” in the English language. We have no way of saying that one “faithed” or that someone is “faithing” in God. Yet in both the Hebrew and the Greek the word group expressing the concept of faith also contains a verb built on the same root.To put it simply, noun and verb are cognate. For example, the Hebrew verb "aman," which means “to be supported,” from which we derive the verb “to believe,” has the corresponding noun "emunah," which means “faith” or “faithful.” Likewise, the Greek verb "pisteuo", which means “to believe,” has the corresponding noun "pistis," which means “faith” or “faithful.” Unfortunately, many English readers do not realize that “believing,” “having faith,” and “being faithful” all derive from the same word group whether in the Hebrew or the Greek.

I understand that faith is an action.  I'm not saying our works aren't important.  I'm saying they aren't what earns us salvation.  They are a result of our salvation.

You, however, are saying that "not eating pork" and observing ritualistic holidays are evidence of our faith, and if you do not do them, then you are obviously not saved.  You put the emphasis on your works justifying you rather than it being about the grace of God that justifies.  Slice it how you want to bro, but that's what you're saying.

God bless
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Shimon
I'm not saying that a person won't get into heaven if they eat swine-flesh. I'm saying that a person will get to heaven *quicker.*

God gave us the kosher laws to teach us how to eat healthy and live longer.

Riiight.  Because pork is so much worse for you than a hamburger.  Moderation man, that's the key. 

Our natural inclination to is get hung up on our daily lives, constantly trying to "get ahead" that we can easily neglect our families in the process.

Our natural inclination is to get legalistic and rely on our ability to keep the Law at every point as our means of salvation.  This causes us to judge our brethren and neglect the 2nd greatest commandment, "love thy neighbor as you love yourself."

God bless
 
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Gabriel:

These statements seem to contradict each other. That is, unless, you don't believe that getting circumcised so that you can become a member of God's family a work?

You misunderstand.

I'm saying that the Jews never believed that they could "work" their way into Heaven through Torah-obedience. They believed they were saved because of their ethnic status in being born Jewish. Gentiles, they believed, could achieve the ethnic status of "Jewish" throught the ritual of circumcision. This wasn't for the purpose of "working" their way into Heaven, but for acquiring the ethnic status of "Jewish."

Paul taught that the only "status" which made any difference is the status of "in Messiah."

There is not one set of laws for Jews, and another set of laws for Gentiles. There is only one set of laws for *everybody* and that set of laws is the Torah.

Ephesians 4:3-6: Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called-- one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

There is ONE body, ONE Spirit, ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE God, and ONE Father.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

There is neither "Jew" nor "Greek," the only status that makes any difference is the status of "in Messiah."

God wasn't creating an ethnic group when he chose the Israelites. He was simply creating a set-apart people who would set themselves apart from the world and obey His commandments. It never made any difference whether the person was born a Jew or not, anyone who was willing to obey God and keep His commandments were welcomed into the family of Israel.

That's what Paul is teaching in the verses you asked about in post #87.

Shimon
 
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Reformationist:

Riiight. Because pork is so much worse for you than a hamburger. Moderation man, that's the key.

So are you saying that eating swine-flesh is more important to you than obeying God? God commanded us not to do it, but you're saying that you are not willing to give it up?

I gave you a reason why I think God gave us the kosher commandments, but that doesn't mean it's the *only* reason.  A parent oftentimes tells their children "do it because I said so."  If we trust God and have faith in Him, that's the only reason we need:  because He said so.

Our natural inclination is to get legalistic and rely on our ability to keep the Law at every point as our means of salvation.

As I've stated over and over and over again, ad nauseum, we do not obey the Torah for the purpose of working our way into Heaven, but for the purpose of obeying His commandments. Yeshua said: "If you love Me, keep my commandments." Those commandments include the kosher laws, observance of the Sabbath and of the biblical holy days.  What you appear to be telling me is that you are unwilling to do so.

If we could get out of "debate mode," I think you would see that we are mostly in agreement.  Both of us believe that it is important to obey God's commandments, the only major area of disagreement is in what exactly those commandments are.

Shimon
 
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Julie and Reformationist:

quote:
Originally posted by Reformationist
So you believe that God's method of salvation is different at different times? Where is that in the Bible?




II Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30

I Samuel 10:6, 11:6; 16:14; Psalm 51:11

I missed this question.

No, I do *not* believe God gave a different method of salvation at different times. There has *always* been only *one* method of salvation: faith in Yeshua.

The Israelites of the "Old Testament" placed their faith in the Messiah to come. We place our faith in the Messiah that came.

Animal sacrifices never atoned for sin, they merely illustrated the atoning work that the Messiah would perform. This still holds true today. Animal sacrifices were never abolished, our ability to offer them has been taken away since the only acceptable place to offer is on the Temple Mount. Since there is no temple, we cannot offer them. But, as we read in Acts, the apostles continued to offer them even after Yeshua's death, because they still illustrated the atoning work that He *had* performed.

Shimon
 
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Gabriel and Reformationist:

By the way, I want to re-emphasize that I'm *not* trying to sound judgmental.

As I've said, I was not born Jewish, was not raised Jewish, and have not "converted" to Judaism. For the first 37 years of my life, I was a Southern Baptist. I went to a Christian private school, continued my bible education in college, and have even spent some time in Bolivia doing missionary work. I too once believed that I could eat pork and shellfish, work on the Sabbath, and observe Christmas and Easter and not the biblical holy days.

But it got to a point where the false doctrines that I had been taught led me down a dark road to destruction. I fell and I fell *hard*.

So, if my comments sound a bit sharp now and then, it because those teachings led me to very depths of perdition, and I know that, had I not sunk so low, I would never have discovered the Torah. God had to strip away everything -- literally *everything* (my house, my belongings, my fiance, and every last dime I had to my name) in order to open my heart to the real truth.

So, when someone challenges my beliefs, it sometimes ignites a defense mechanism, where I'm kinda shouting "No! No way! We're not going there again!  I've been down that road before!"

I hope you can understand.

Shimon
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Julie
II Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:13; 4:30

I Samuel 10:6, 11:6; 16:14; Psalm 51:11 

 

Not following you.  How is this proof that God uses different methods to save people at different times?
 
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Ben johnson

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Because pork is so much worse for you than a hamburger.
WHAT?!?! Isn't a HAMburger made with HAM???

:p

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I started a thread intended to polish each of us on the "essence of salvation"---that we all correctly understand Scripture on whether or not we can KNOW we are saved, whether or not we have PEACE about our Heaveny destinies; how did I lose the thread to a discussion of Jewish practice?
 
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Reformationist

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Originally posted by Shimon
I too once believed that I could eat pork and shellfish, work on the Sabbath, and observe Christmas and Easter and not the biblical holy days.

I too often think my works are what saves me.  It's an auto pilot response.  Oftentimes I turn to my works as a method for proving to myself that I'm saved.  You know, you do something sinful and then you try real hard to be real, real obedient so that you can "feel" saved again.  Instead, we should just go back to what we know is true.  We are saved.  We are forgiven.  No, I'm not advocating a lifestyle of sin.  I just think you put way too much emphasis on your works that you lose sight of the fact that you were saved apart from them.  It's called grace. 

God bless
 
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Gabriel

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So, when someone challenges my beliefs, it sometimes ignites a defense mechanism, where I'm kinda shouting "No! No way! We're not going there again!  I've been down that road before!"

I hope you can understand.
 

 

I sure can.

 :wave: Ben
 
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